New Celtic Slogan: "We Lost...Blame Krstic"

[Prof. Clutch]

we lost...blame canada?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAYMJnO9LBQ

[Roy H.]

They are actual stats per game I used because they are real and not projected stats.  Perk doesn't play those minutes because of whatever reason then the phantom stats are not produced.  This isn't startomatic basketball is it ?   Stats per minute are not produced if those minutes are not played folks.  I would guess foul trouble sat him down.  They don't use by the minute stats but rather cumulative stats for the Hall of Fame, no?

With respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what you're talking about.  The stats listed were "per game" stats.  In '08 through '10, Perk blocked significantly more shots per game than KG.  This season, in a smaller sample size coming back from injury, Perk blocked as many shots per game than KG, despite playing fewer minutes.  These aren't projected numbers, they're the real thing.  What's your dispute with the numbers that were listed?

[SHAQATTACK]

Wish the rest of the team had played the whole game with same intensity as Krstic.  He saved us from a worse whippen way I saw it. At least he could make a shot.

[18isGREATERthan72]

Celtics lost the Clippers game on purpose to bump them up in the standings, and hopefully land them with the 11th pick...

Hopefully?!

[Roy H.]

Celtics lost the Clippers game on purpose to bump them up in the standings, and hopefully land them with the 11th pick...

Hopefully?!

We don't get the Clippers pick until 2012 at the earliest.  The Cavs have the Clippers #1 this year.

[Casperian]

With respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what you're talking about.  The stats listed were "per game" stats.  In '08 through '10, Perk blocked significantly more shots per game than KG.  This season, in a smaller sample size coming back from injury, Perk blocked as many shots per game than KG, despite playing fewer minutes.  These aren't projected numbers, they're the real thing.  What's your dispute with the numbers that were listed?

The numbers don´t tell anything about the actual skill of a player, imo. Of course, Perk´s shot-block rate is higher than Garnett´s, it was his role in the defensive scheme. It would´ve looked pretty weird if Perk played KG´s role on defense.

[Roy H.]

With respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what you're talking about.  The stats listed were "per game" stats.  In '08 through '10, Perk blocked significantly more shots per game than KG.  This season, in a smaller sample size coming back from injury, Perk blocked as many shots per game than KG, despite playing fewer minutes.  These aren't projected numbers, they're the real thing.  What's your dispute with the numbers that were listed?

The numbers don´t tell anything about the actual skill of a player, imo. Of course, Perk´s shot-block rate is higher than Garnett´s, it was his role in the defensive scheme. It would´ve looked pretty weird if Perk played KG´s role on defense.

As droponov noted above, even beyond help defense Perk was a much better 1-on-1 shot blocker.  This has nothing to do with scheme, but instead the skills of the player.

I mean, okay, we can all argue theoretical points that aren't based on an objective reality.  "Kevin Garnett is a better shot blocker than Hakeem Olajuwon and Mark Eaton put together".  Prove me wrong, but know in advance that I'm going to reject all statistical claims.

[Megatron]

If anything, Krstic should feel insulted that he was the only one trying all game vs Jordan/Griffin, both beasts in the paint. While the rest of the Celtics were standing around day dreaming until the 4th quarter.

[Casperian]

I mean, okay, we can all argue theoretical points that aren't based on an objective reality.  "Kevin Garnett is a better shot blocker than Hakeem Olajuwon and Mark Eaton put together".  Prove me wrong, but know in advance that I'm going to reject all statistical claims.

Why? That´s not what I´ve wrote. Is that sarcasm? Watch out, I`ve heard you get banned for that.  
Btw, I would never reject statistical claims. I would prove them false.

Your stats do prove something, but it´s not what you think they do.
The point is that KG is the one who the defense is built around. KG played to his strengths, and Perk cleaned up around him. Perk did the stuff KG couldn´t do (either due to skill, or simply because defense is played 5-on-5), and part of that is shot-blocking. That´s what your numbers support. They don´t say anything about the actual skill of a player.

His role in the scheme and these numbers are not necessarily based on Perk´s incredible shot-blocking ability, but on the fact that Garnett is more useful in a different role on defense, which is a theory my eye would support.

[BballTim]

I mean, okay, we can all argue theoretical points that aren't based on an objective reality.  "Kevin Garnett is a better shot blocker than Hakeem Olajuwon and Mark Eaton put together".  Prove me wrong, but know in advance that I'm going to reject all statistical claims.

Why? That´s not what I´ve wrote. Is that sarcasm? Watch out, I`ve heard you get banned for that.  
Btw, I would never reject statistical claims. I would prove them false.

Your stats do prove something, but it´s not what you think they do.
The point is that KG is the one who the defense is built around. KG played to his strengths, and Perk cleaned up around him. Perk did the stuff KG couldn´t do (either due to skill, or simply because defense is played 5-on-5), and part of that is shot-blocking. That´s what your numbers support. They don´t say anything about the actual skill of a player.

His role in the scheme and these numbers are not necessarily based on Perk´s incredible shot-blocking ability, but on the fact that Garnett is more useful in a different role on defense, which is a theory my eye would support.

  If you look at blocks per minute or % of shots blocked, Perk's worst year before this year, his rookie year when he only played 35 minutes, was as good as KG's best year. Every other year Perk's numbers were well better than KG's, including the three years before KG joined the Celts. Perk's shot blocking is *not* due to playing with KG.

[xmuscularghandix]

I love Nenad Krstic, i don't care about any of this crap. Celtics are 5-2 since the deal. 5-1 if you don't count the day that they played without any of the new guys.

The inexperienced bench was at fault for the close games, the starters are at fault for The Clippers loss. Too many silly passes just to shoot jump shots, you have to attack a team like that, not get flashy for 20 seconds then take a 20+ foot jump shot. Then defensively you can't allow easy dribble penetration.

Once Shaq is back to start the games, Krstic will be perfect to come off the bench and do work with Delonte and Glen Davis. I think they missed Glen out there as much as anyone, esppecially Green who is looking to be a Small Forward in Boston, but due to injuries he's playing PF.

On the bright side i was REALLY impressed with Carlos Arroyo, the fact that he was running plays that Doc hasn't even taught him yet... that's a really good sign.

[Chris]

How can anybody argue with a straight face that KG is a better shot blocker than Perk, or that he's been better than Perk while in a Celtics uniform?  It's just not even remotely true, and there are solid numbers to back it up.  

I would easily argue that KG is a better shot blocker than Perk, even now.  I think Perk is more prolific, mainly due to the fact that he spends more time on the weakside of the defense, and in the post, while KG spends more time chasing guys on the perimeter, and trying to jump passing lanes.  But from a pure skill standpoint, I think KG is a better shot blocker. 

Last season, for every block on his man KG had, Perkins had 2.3. Not weakside or help shot-blocking, but blocks when contesting shots m2m.

Not sure where that stat comes from, but regardless, it still doesn't dispute my point.  I would argue that a huge part of that is because Perkins is spending a lot more time defending in the post m2m than KG, who is more often m2m on the perimeter, where it is much harder to block shots.

[Casperian]

I mean, okay, we can all argue theoretical points that aren't based on an objective reality.  "Kevin Garnett is a better shot blocker than Hakeem Olajuwon and Mark Eaton put together".  Prove me wrong, but know in advance that I'm going to reject all statistical claims.

Why? That´s not what I´ve wrote. Is that sarcasm? Watch out, I`ve heard you get banned for that.  
Btw, I would never reject statistical claims. I would prove them false.

Your stats do prove something, but it´s not what you think they do.
The point is that KG is the one who the defense is built around. KG played to his strengths, and Perk cleaned up around him. Perk did the stuff KG couldn´t do (either due to skill, or simply because defense is played 5-on-5), and part of that is shot-blocking. That´s what your numbers support. They don´t say anything about the actual skill of a player.

His role in the scheme and these numbers are not necessarily based on Perk´s incredible shot-blocking ability, but on the fact that Garnett is more useful in a different role on defense, which is a theory my eye would support.

  If you look at blocks per minute or % of shots blocked, Perk's worst year before this year, his rookie year when he only played 35 minutes, was as good as KG's best year. Every other year Perk's numbers were well better than KG's, including the three years before KG joined the Celts. Perk's shot blocking is *not* due to playing with KG.

If we want to keep this discussion going, I´d have to take on the role of devil´s advocate here, because I don´t want to argue against the statement that Perk is a superior shot-blocker to Garnett. What I said is that a) Roy´s numbers don´t prove his statement (even though I´d agree with the premise) and b) that his shot-blocking skill is not what defined our defense. KG is.

Let´s be real here. Perk´s shot-blocking is pretty much the only skill where he´s better than KG. Why this is even part of the discussion in a Krstic thread is beyond me, unless you use it as an argument in a "Perk vs Krstic" debate. To single his only skill out in which he´s better than KG and extrapolate a reason why our defense struggles, and thus, why we have to "blame Krstic" in the first place, is pointless since we

a) don´t have a large enough sample size of Krstic in green
b) don´t have a large enough sample size of Perkins in OKC (but we do know he´s inured)
c) have a better winning record with Krstic in the given sample size
d) can´t put a definitve value on shot-blocking in our defensive scheme
e) can´t put a definitive value on Krstic to our overall team output (either absolute, or in relation to Perk)
f) don´t even know what Krstic´s role will be during the playoffs
g) have an actual starting Center, Shaq, who was an even better shot-blocker than Perk during his prime.

There are more, but I think you get my point.

[Eja117]

I only see people like Eja blaming Krstic.

Can you find me the place where I said "We lost this game because of Nenad"?

I did make comments that it was pretty awful the way DeAndre Jordan pwned him.

I just think Nenad isn't a good center.

I don't think Pavlovic is great either. Doesn't mean I think it's his fault we lost

[Eja117]

I thought the slogan was "We Lost, Blame Rondo". 

Krstic isn't to blame, he's just overrated and can't carry Perk's jock.

And don't you forget it!