Rondo is Overrated

[IrishGreen]

Again, like the 'Rondo should be traded' thread that was about a couple of days ago, this is quite laughable.

Ok so how exactly is he overrated?

Passing - He leads the league in assists, and is top 5 in TO/A ratio. So therefore I doubt many people overrate him in this category.

Agreed.  It helps that he has guys who can finish so well, but he is absolutely an elite passer and playmaker.

Defensive - Hands down best defensive PG in the League. So not overrating here..Leads the league in steals.

He is a great defensive playmaker, but I think it is arguable whether he is the best overall defensive PG in the league.  There are guys who are better one on one defenders, who keep their men in front of them better, but don't force turnovers the way Rondo does.  I think Rondo's defensive style is perfect for the C's when they are executing, because it allows him to be more aggressive, and "float" a bit, while hiding his weakness one on one.  But I do think this is where he is overrated a bit.

Offensive - His jumper is atrocious but no one argues that it's actually good. It's well documented that's it's not. So therefore no one overrates his jumper.

Yup

I.Q - Only a handful of PG's or even players possess the same IQ as Rondo. Doc even said it himself. So no one again overrates this.

Agreed, his understanding of the game has always been his greatest strength IMO.  

Clutch - Comes alive in big games, minus the shot of course. Again no one overrates this.

Absolutely.  Although this is also the biggest criticism a lot of us have against him.  A lot of people seem to rate him based on his big game play, but this cuts both ways, because it means he underperforms in games that aren't as big.  If this guy is the future of the franchise, I don't think its unfair to hope for more consistency.

What we have here, as per usual is a bunch of Celtics fans that expect too much from him. I for one expect more from him than any of the other Big 3, therefore I'll critique his game with more zealous.

I expect the same from him as I expect from the Big 3.  And I think that is more than fair.  And I do not see the same consistent "flipping of the switch" in big games versus smaller games in the big 3 that I see from Rondo.  Rondo, you can almost pinpoint when he is going to be good, and when he is going to be mediocre.  While KG, Ray, and Pierce all have good and bad days, you can't pinpoint it like that, and even in their bad games, they seem much more focussed than Rondo does in his bad ones.

Obviously this is something that may come with more maturity.  But I think its more than reasonable to criticize him for this.

Simply put, he is not overrated, we just expect too much from him. If we were to expect the same from PP we'd want to see him average 24-26ppg, same with Ray.

I fail to understand how he is not overrated, if we are expecting to much from him?  If we were expecting PP to score 24-26ppg, that would mean we were overrating him too.  Overrating just means that our expectations are larger than his actual production.  

It doesn't mean he is a bad player.  It doesn't mean we should trade him.  All it means is that perhaps he is not the superstar in the making that some make him out to be.  

I agree completely with you on most of this.

He needs to become more consistent but I sat down earlier today and this bugged me why he's like this...

Is it maybe because he's playing with 4 Hall of Famers that he feels he doesn't need to contribute as much as he could? I doubt it's laziness, maybe more fatigue in recent games.

For instance if he was playing for say the Clippers or Raptors do you think he would have a greater influence on games due to the lack of household names?

[Fafnir]

2. Defense: His defense is highly overrated in my opinion.  I don't care if he gets torched by guys like Dwill, Cp3, Wall, Rose, etc.  Because everyone does.  But I don't like when he get burned by the Sessions, Calderon, Jennings, Brooks of the world.  Can Rondo be an elite defender when he wants to...no question.  But he doesn't show those elite defending skills enough for my taste.  Far to many gambles for steals that don't pay off that hurt our whole team defense.  No other Celtic is allowed to make as many defensive mistakes (to much roaming) and gambles on a regular basis and not get killed for it.  Say I agree or disagree with the best defensive PG hands down assessment either way...when you make that statement who are you comparing him to?  Most if not all elite PG in the NBA don't really play good defense or have to on a regular basis.  I could say I am the best basketball player in my apartment complex of 800 people but if only 8 of those 800 play basketball are you that impressed by my claim?  I mean it is not my fault only 8 people out of 800 play basketball and I am "hands down" better then them in this scenario...but it is what it is.  Just food for thought.

I understand that there are many times where he doesn't play "fundamental defense", but I think a lot of critics are too harsh on him. In many game threads I've seen people say "keep your mean between your knees", after Rondo gets picked high with a typical NBA (aka moving) screen.

At that point its officially a team defensive issue more than just Rondo.

[BballTim]

He is a great defensive playmaker, but I think it is arguable whether he is the best overall defensive PG in the league.  There are guys who are better one on one defenders, who keep their men in front of them better, but don't force turnovers the way Rondo does. 

  Which point guards are better one on one defenders, and which ones are noticeably better at keeping their men in front of them? IIRC the nba.com poll of GMs had Rondo as the best on the ball defender in the league by a decent margin.

[Chris]

I agree completely with you on most of this.

He needs to become more consistent but I sat down earlier today and this bugged me why he's like this...

Is it maybe because he's playing with 4 Hall of Famers that he feels he doesn't need to contribute as much as he could? I doubt it's laziness, maybe more fatigue in recent games.

For instance if he was playing for say the Clippers or Raptors do you think he would have a greater influence on games due to the lack of household names?

Its impossible to know, so its all speculation. 

I personally think part of it is self preservation.  He has been playing with veterans who understand how to keep themselves fresh and healthy, and I think at least part of it has rubbed off.  He knows that if he is going to play so many minutes, he can't go all out (and play wrecklessly) all the time, so he picks his spots.  And granted, he generally picks them pretty well.

Although, I also think at least a small part of it is ego.  I think he genuinely gets revved up to "prove" himself against other elite players and teams.  But, against teams and players where he does not feel he has anything to prove it against, he doesn't seem to have that drive to kill them. 

The interesting thing is that its kind of the opposite of what we see with KG.  He absolutely loves to destroy guys who he doesn't think deserve to be on the same court with him.  While he doesn't back down in big games, he just gets that special gleam in his eyes to destroy guys who aren't as good.  If some of that could rub off on Rondo, I think he would become a much more complete player.

[soap07]

It's clear that the players around Rondo inflate his game - but it goes both ways. Rondo has an uncanny ability to find an open Ray, mid-range KG...pushing the break, etc.


That being said, CP3, Deron and Rose are definitely better individual players (CP3/Deron are better team-wise as well, I would say). That doesn't demean Rondo in any way - he's just not the best point guard in the league. He's on the level of Westbrook/Rose which is not a slight in any way.

[BballTim]

It's clear that the players around Rondo inflate his game - but it goes both ways. Rondo has an uncanny ability to find an open Ray, mid-range KG...pushing the break, etc.


That being said, CP3, Deron and Rose are definitely better individual players (CP3/Deron are better team-wise as well, I would say). That doesn't demean Rondo in any way - he's just not the best point guard in the league. He's on the level of Westbrook/Rose which is not a slight in any way.

  I don't think that anyone who judges point guards on their individual productivity and not on their overall contribution to the team would say that Rondo's the best pg.

[soap07]

It's clear that the players around Rondo inflate his game - but it goes both ways. Rondo has an uncanny ability to find an open Ray, mid-range KG...pushing the break, etc.


That being said, CP3, Deron and Rose are definitely better individual players (CP3/Deron are better team-wise as well, I would say). That doesn't demean Rondo in any way - he's just not the best point guard in the league. He's on the level of Westbrook/Rose which is not a slight in any way.

  I don't think that anyone who judges point guards on their individual productivity and not on their overall contribution to the team would say that Rondo's the best pg.

Nice job taking what I said out of context. Please read the rest of the post.

[BballTim]

It's clear that the players around Rondo inflate his game - but it goes both ways. Rondo has an uncanny ability to find an open Ray, mid-range KG...pushing the break, etc.


That being said, CP3, Deron and Rose are definitely better individual players (CP3/Deron are better team-wise as well, I would say). That doesn't demean Rondo in any way - he's just not the best point guard in the league. He's on the level of Westbrook/Rose which is not a slight in any way.

  I don't think that anyone who judges point guards on their individual productivity and not on their overall contribution to the team would say that Rondo's the best pg.

Nice job taking what I said out of context. Please read the rest of the post.

  Okay, I missed part of it, but saying he's on the level of Westbrook is something of a slight IMO.

[KungPoweChicken]

Steals mean very little when evaluating a player's defense. Furthermore, Rondo is averaging 4 turnovers a game (most of his career), so those steals are negated, anyway.

[angryguy77]

unbelievable.

Why do we have these threads after every loss

[KungPoweChicken]

What's amazing is that Rondo is second in the league averaging 3.8 turnovers a game (Westbrook 3.9). But every player in the top 10 of the turnover list are players who are doubled teamed consistently and are primary scorers. Rondo never looks to score, hardly ever faces double teams, hardly ever drives to the basket, and still manages to basically lead the league in turnovers.

[BballTim]

What's amazing is that Rondo is second in the league averaging 3.8 turnovers a game (Westbrook 3.9). But every player in the top 10 of the turnover list are players who are doubled teamed consistently and are primary scorers. Rondo never looks to score, hardly ever faces double teams, hardly ever drives to the basket, and still manages to basically lead the league in turnovers.

  Rondo has the highest assist/turnover rate of the top 35 or so turnover leaders. Compared to the top 10 in turnovers he's got the fewest ballhandling turnovers and the second or 3rd lowest total of offensive fouls. He has more passing turnovers than most of the list but he's probably 2nd or so in best assist/bad pass ratio.

[BballTim]

Steals mean very little when evaluating a player's defense.

  I'm guessing that opponent's eFG%, rebounds, assists and turnovers also mean very little?

[KungPoweChicken]

What's amazing is that Rondo is second in the league averaging 3.8 turnovers a game (Westbrook 3.9). But every player in the top 10 of the turnover list are players who are doubled teamed consistently and are primary scorers. Rondo never looks to score, hardly ever faces double teams, hardly ever drives to the basket, and still manages to basically lead the league in turnovers.

  Rondo has the highest assist/turnover rate of the top 35 or so turnover leaders. Compared to the top 10 in turnovers he's got the fewest ballhandling turnovers and the second or 3rd lowest total of offensive fouls. He has more passing turnovers than most of the list but he's probably 2nd or so in best assist/bad pass ratio.

Passing turnovers are the worst turnovers! Anyone who has played basketball knows that passing turnovers a huge no-no. All turnovers are bad, but at least ball handling turnovers under pressure are forgivable. Why would Rondo have any offensive fouls? He doesn't drive to the basket. Basically what you are saying is that the vast majority of Rondo's turnovers come from bad passes. This is unacceptable for a "good" or "great" point guard. Assist/turnover ratio is a misleading stat, especially since Rondo looks to "tally up" assists.

[Fafnir]

What's amazing is that Rondo is second in the league averaging 3.8 turnovers a game (Westbrook 3.9). But every player in the top 10 of the turnover list are players who are doubled teamed consistently and are primary scorers. Rondo never looks to score, hardly ever faces double teams, hardly ever drives to the basket, and still manages to basically lead the league in turnovers.

Rondo handles the ball an awful lot and plays more minutes than the PGs who turn it over often than he does. His turnover percentage is the highest of the top point guards.

He is second in assist percentage to Nash however.