Krstic is being overrated

[CelticG1]

So, while it is certainly a downgrade, I think it is negated a bit by the better perimeter rebounding.  

And his offensiv game negates what Perk brought too.  Though I still think a healthy Perk is a better center and what he brings to the game (defense) is much more important than what Kristic brings.

I do like seeing a center that has some offensive game on the C's again for once, but we need at least Shaq for the playoffs if we are going to get the title.

which I believe is why Danny said himself that we could be in trouble if Shaq and JO aren't back for the playoffs.

and honestly, we need them both because Shaq is a foul machine and is going to pick up a ton of fouls against Howard, Rose, LeBron, Wade, etc...he's gonna have games where he picks of 3 fouls in the first quarter.

Honestly that's fine by me, I mean he can't go much longer than 20 minutes a game anyways. So foul rate for Shaq isn't really a concern for me, we'll need someone else to play no matter what.

which is why we need both back...

Rasheed was a fouling machine last year too and we were fine

until we lost Perk...

Yeah whenever you lose a starter in the playoffs you are going to be fighting a serious up hill battle

[IrishGreen]

I think they under-rated him at OKC. So much of the play ran through Durant and Westbrook there.

He has a mean hook in the post, and although he's not 'that' mobile in pick and roll situations, when he does pop in the roll, his jumper is solid. There are very few centers that can shoot from 15ft like him.

Defensively there is huge room from improvement. However I've seen massive steps forwards since his first game with us. He understands the rotation better now but he needs to box out more often rather than to go for stupid rebounds, in the hope that more agile players will pick up the lose ball.

He'll be great off the bench, especially when Howard gets tired with the physical aspect of Shaq on the offensive end in the post, and then has to deal with closing out mark Kristic, where he can either shoot or pass off to Rondo/Allen/Pierce who can find the player cutting to the open lane.

Did they need their C to be an above average offensive threat (with the other weapons they had) or a guy that does the dirty work?

If Durant has an off night I honestly don't think Westbrook can takeover a game, especially in the playoffs. Green would of been the next option. Perkins adds nothing on the offensive end, and I vaguely remember that OKC lost 70% of their games this year due to not closing out on shooters, not interior defensive.

Was Perkins always a good Defensive player or did KG instil his defensive prowess in Perkins? Something he may be able to do with Kristic.

[wdleehi]

I think they under-rated him at OKC. So much of the play ran through Durant and Westbrook there.

He has a mean hook in the post, and although he's not 'that' mobile in pick and roll situations, when he does pop in the roll, his jumper is solid. There are very few centers that can shoot from 15ft like him.

Defensively there is huge room from improvement. However I've seen massive steps forwards since his first game with us. He understands the rotation better now but he needs to box out more often rather than to go for stupid rebounds, in the hope that more agile players will pick up the lose ball.

He'll be great off the bench, especially when Howard gets tired with the physical aspect of Shaq on the offensive end in the post, and then has to deal with closing out mark Kristic, where he can either shoot or pass off to Rondo/Allen/Pierce who can find the player cutting to the open lane.

Did they need their C to be an above average offensive threat (with the other weapons they had) or a guy that does the dirty work?

If Durant has an off night I honestly don't think Westbrook can takeover a game, especially in the playoffs. Green would of been the next option. Perkins adds nothing on the offensive end, and I vaguely remember that OKC lost 70% of their games this year due to not closing out on shooters, not interior defensive.

Was Perkins always a good Defensive player or did KG instil his defensive prowess in Perkins? Something he may be able to do with Kristic.

KG may inspire  focus and energy into defense among his teammates, but he is not a miracle worker. 

[Las Vegas Asian]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.   

Even taking Perks low post and team defense into account, I would still rate him as a below average starting center. Look around the league and you can find at least 15 centers you would take over Perkins.

[wdleehi]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.   

Even taking Perks low post and team defense into account, I would still rate him as a below average starting center. Look around the league and you can find at least 15 centers you would take over Perkins.

I don't.


Not for the Celtics.  He was a great fit for the rest of the starters.  He didn't need touches.  He fit the defensive scheme.  He was great to throw out at some of the biggest guys on the hardest teams to beat (such saving KG from extra wear and tear over the entire game)

[CelticG1]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.  


Krstic is an above average scorer at the C position, but below average in everything else.  And as the 5th option on the floor, that's not as important.  


He is a useful extra big man.  

But I want to see him as that in the playoff, extra big man.  With 5 healthy options ahead of him.  

Your analysis of Perk is a pretty favorable one. Basically perk is a good defender (not great) and has one of the highest FG percentages good for 5PPG. I also disagree that he is an above average rebounder.

[wdleehi]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.  


Krstic is an above average scorer at the C position, but below average in everything else.  And as the 5th option on the floor, that's not as important.  


He is a useful extra big man.  

But I want to see him as that in the playoff, extra big man.  With 5 healthy options ahead of him.  

Your analysis of Perk is a pretty favorable one. Basically perk is a good defender (not great) and has one of the highest FG percentages good for 5PPG. I also disagree that he is an above average rebounder.

According to players like Howard, Perk is one of the toughest guys to face. 

Low shot attempts.  High %.  Not asked or needed to be a scorer.   

[CelticG1]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.  


Krstic is an above average scorer at the C position, but below average in everything else.  And as the 5th option on the floor, that's not as important.  


He is a useful extra big man.  

But I want to see him as that in the playoff, extra big man.  With 5 healthy options ahead of him.  

Your analysis of Perk is a pretty favorable one. Basically perk is a good defender (not great) and has one of the highest FG percentages good for 5PPG. I also disagree that he is an above average rebounder.

According to players like Howard, Perk is one of the toughest guys to face. 

Low shot attempts.  High %.  Not asked or needed to be a scorer.   

What player's have said that besides Howard? Howard wasn't a slouch against Perk anyway averaging 20 and 10 in the playoffs last year. Also don't forget Howard is a terrible post player anyway. Without Perk on Christmas day I think he had 6 points against us.

[Las Vegas Asian]

Roy, would it be fair to call Krstic an average center? His career PER is 13.6, right around league average. His career dRTG is 106, which is not terrible. I think that would be properly rating him.

Average center, yes.  Below average starting center, pretty good backup center, excellent third string center.

Doesn't that pretty much describe Perkins as well? I think we overrate Perk as well just because he was the starting center when we won in '08. Put in a number of starting centers from around the league and the end result would probably be the same.

No.  Perkins plays elite level low post defense.  He is an above average rebounded.  Offensively (where he was the 5th option on the floor) he was below average, but still was near the top in terms of FG %.  


Krstic is an above average scorer at the C position, but below average in everything else.  And as the 5th option on the floor, that's not as important.  


He is a useful extra big man.  

But I want to see him as that in the playoff, extra big man.  With 5 healthy options ahead of him.  

Your analysis of Perk is a pretty favorable one. Basically perk is a good defender (not great) and has one of the highest FG percentages good for 5PPG. I also disagree that he is an above average rebounder.

According to players like Howard, Perk is one of the toughest guys to face. 

Low shot attempts.  High %.  Not asked or needed to be a scorer.   

But how much of this was predicated on the arrival of KG and Thibodeau's defense? I don't think anyone in the league was intimated by Perk's defense pre championship. When I think of Elite defenders guys like Mutombo, Olajuwon, Robinson, and a prime Shaq come to mind. IMO you could plug in a handful of centers from around the league, including Krstic, and we still win #17. We were that good then that it didn't really matter.

[amenhotep04]

I think there are different aspects that people are focusing upon that get in the way.

1. Roy used effectively a lot of statistics that show Perk to be better. The problem is that one would have to demonstrate how those numbers change once Perk is playing in OKC, and how Krstic plays for the Cs. Bottom line with these stats, we need to control for the context. That isn't being done nor can it at this point.

2. Roy has said he is concerned about the chemistry issue. I agree here 100%. But Krstic appears to be fitting in pretty well. We are all seeing improvement each game. And given the injury situation, it almost helps ALL the new guys to get their feet wet. This should help a ton in the playoffs.

3. A lot of posters here never followed the Thunder prior to this trade, so they are completely reliant on Krstic's use in OKC for evaluation. My experience with this is that we favor those we are familiar opposed to those we are not.

4. Perk was incredibly popular. No doubt about that. So obviously that is going to sway opinion as well. Not to mention, Perk knew his role and didn't go beyond that. Big Al said Perk struggled with that early in his career. He found his niche. As long as OKC doesn't ask him to go beyond that, he should work well for them. Krstic should find his place here on the Celtics and do what they ask him to do, which it appears according to Doc has been pretty easy.

5. Many people are forgetting that all things being equal, if nothing changed, who would be playing center right now for the Cs if the moves weren't made? How would that impact our record and ranking?

6. I don't always agree with Danny's moves, but this one appears to have netted us a big improvement. Green and Krstic fit well. And hopefully we'll get a nice draft pick out of this, or trade it for a good player. But it's hard to say that one player is being overrated when so much of what we do on this board is homerism. We all root for the Celtics. We need one or both of the O'Neals to come back reasonably healthy. But that was the case before the trade. That part hasn't changed.

I'm just stoked that players are coming to the Celtics and not the Heat. But the real threat is Chicago anyway. We're going to need energy to beat them in a series some time in late Spring. Hopefully the Cs will be reasonably healthy by then.

[Andy Jick]

I'm not sure I see the point of this thread...  I do realize that it's the esteemed mod Roy H. who took the time to type this out, but isn't it just stating the obvious?

We know that Perk isn't walking through that door, and there is a strong possibility that neither of the O'Neal's plays again this season at all...

I think we are all well aware that Krstic's game is different from Perk's...

This just looks like another in the long line of "Perk is gone and we'll never be able to win" threads...  I think we've exhausted this ad nauseam...

[Roy H.]

I'm not sure I see the point of this thread...  I do realize that it's the esteemed mod Roy H. who took the time to type this out, but isn't it just stating the obvious?

We know that Perk isn't walking through that door, and there is a strong possibility that neither of the O'Neal's plays again this season at all...

I think we are all well aware that Krstic's game is different from Perk's...

This just looks like another in the long line of "Perk is gone and we'll never be able to win" threads...  I think we've exhausted this ad nauseam...

I'm sorry to disagree with the esteemed Andy Jick, but I thought the point of this thread was fairly obvious.  It was an attempt to show the reality of Krstic's game, and his strengths and weaknesses.  The original post didn't say a word about "Perk is gone and we'll never be able to win".

We discuss the positives and negatives of players all the time.  Heck, just today there were about half a dozen concerning Rondo.  Is Krstic off limits because he was included in the recent trade?  Should we only post positive things about Krstic and Green (and negative things about Perkins) because the esteemed Danny Ainge made a trade that shook up the roster?

[KCattheStripe]

Is it overrating him to say, " Hey look! He doesn't suck!

[Tai]

I'm not sure I see the point of this thread...  I do realize that it's the esteemed mod Roy H. who took the time to type this out, but isn't it just stating the obvious?

We know that Perk isn't walking through that door, and there is a strong possibility that neither of the O'Neal's plays again this season at all...

I think we are all well aware that Krstic's game is different from Perk's...

This just looks like another in the long line of "Perk is gone and we'll never be able to win" threads...  I think we've exhausted this ad nauseam...

I'm sorry to disagree with the esteemed Andy Jick, but I thought the point of this thread was fairly obvious.  It was an attempt to show the reality of Krstic's game, and his strengths and weaknesses.  The original post didn't say a word about "Perk is gone and we'll never be able to win".

We discuss the positives and negatives of players all the time.  Heck, just today there were about half a dozen concerning Rondo.  Is Krstic off limits because he was included in the recent trade?  Should we only post positive things about Krstic and Green (and negative things about Perkins) because the esteemed Danny Ainge made a trade that shook up the roster?

See, the thing is, people were making topics about Rondo cause he supposedly stunk up the place last night. What has Krstic done since he's come here but play well? Essentially, you're trying to sell us that Perkins is still the better player, or something.

That's what I get from calling Krstic "overrated", considering the fact not a lot of people actually thought he'd be any use to the Celtics, even though he was just starting at OKC. I mean, did someone really call Danny a liar just cause he said that Krstic's a starting center in this league when he was just starting for the Thunder THIS year, as well as last?

[Roy H.]

See, the thing is, people were making topics about Rondo cause he supposedly stunk up the place last night. What has Krstic done since he's come here but play well? Essentially, you're trying to sell us that Perkins is still the better player, or something.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but please don't put words in my mouth.  This thread is about Krstic, rather than Perkins, although I do think it's fair to say that both OKC and Boston feel Perkins is the better player (unless you consider Jeff Green and a #1 to be a throw in).

Regardless, I'm not sure if I was somehow not clear in my first post, but I thought I answered the question you raised.  "What has Krstic done since he's come here but play well?"  Well, for one thing he's been an atrocious defensive rebounder, which I pointed out.  For another, his defense has been decidedly mediocre. 

I mean, your post is exactly the type of argument this thread was meant to address.  Essentially, you're asking me to only focus on the positive and to ignore the negative (i.e., to concede that he has only "played well", rather than the mixed bag of results that is reality.)  I'm sorry if my refusal to pretend that Krstic's deficiencies don't exist somehow offends your sensibilities, but the guy is one of the very worst defensive rebounding centers in the entire NBA.  I think it's fair to discuss that.