Author Topic: Pierce is our best player  (Read 19645 times)

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Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2011, 09:56:22 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

Agreed.  Sometimes he gets really lazy on D, too..and reaches instead of moving his feet which can often lead to layups or useless fouls.  It gets annoying, especially considering how talented of a defensive player he is.  That being said, Rondo is a great player, and let's face it, we don't win without him, either (although I wouldn't say we have a 0% chance of winning, just probably like 10% w/ Delonte).

We cant win without him, in the playoffs he usually makes the case for being our best player, but he doesent deserve that honor yet.

Rondo has simply been spoiled by playing with the Big 3. Rondo can not show up at all some nights and we can still win.

For example last night. 6 points, 8 assists, 8 turnovers? If Derrick Rose had that stat line the bulls would have gotten blown out.

Rondo has grown accustom to not having to give 100% every night.

KG's T-Wolves had no chance of winning a title, not with the players he had around him, but for 12 years he gave everything he had to that team, win or lose.

Until Rondo does that I refuse to consider him in the C's best player category.

  We also do pretty well when KG and Paul have off games (shocking, I know, but it does happen). I think if you asked people nationally who was our best player Rondo would get picked at least as often as KG or PP, probably more often that Paul. And the reason the Bulls would lose if Rose scored 6 points it that he'd do it on 20 shots or so. If he's not scoring he's pretty mediocre.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2011, 10:05:17 AM »

Offline ballin

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Pierce is our best offensive player. KG is our best defensive player. Both are indispensable, so they're like our yin and yang.

KG + Pierce are tied for best player.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2011, 10:26:37 AM »

Offline Birdbrain

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

This post should be in some sort of HOF.  Thanks.  TPx1000. 

We have a lot of psychologists as fans.

The infamous espn blogger is the club house leader in that regard.  Of course he lacks any semblance of a BBIQ and his intelligence in general is very lacking but, he still feels he's got firm grasp on Rondo's brain. 
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Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #79 on: March 08, 2011, 10:31:04 AM »

Offline Carhole

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Also, people seem to conveniently forget that KGs Twolves teams were almost always middle of the pack defensive teams. If KG single handedly can lock down the world, as I am so often lead to believe, how could that be.

Check their rosters. How how awful they were when he was off the floor.

And you are just referring to defense I assume but the reality is on Offense PP had his greatest jump in efficiency when Doc came and instituted a real offense even though he was playing with nobodies.

KG has seen a nice spike in his efficiency since playing with a true lead scorer.

I was talking about the Wolves. They weren't an elite defensive team because Garnett had a horrible supporting casts and he couldn't play 48 mpg.

KG was a top-3 defender in the league when he was in Minnesota, arguably deserved a DPOY before 2007/2008 (even though I think that was his best year in terms of defense... more mature).

Garnett was a MVP level of player for most of his career. Pierce wasn't.

Garnett has had a better career than PP.

Garnett top 20 players of all time.

PP top 50 (maybe top 40)

The OP of this thread was based on what is going on now. Why would the fact he was also an MVP caliber player have any weight?

If it did, Shaq would be the best player on our team.

PP and KG are the two most important cogs in this engine in my opinion. You need them both

You were the one mentioning the "KGs Twolves teams". I merely replied to that. If you just want to talk about the now, you shouldn't have mentioned the rest of their careers.

As of now, Garnett is a superior player to Pierce. Without Garnett, the Celtics would be an average defensive team, as they were when Garnett was out for that 1/3 of the season in 2009. Actually, a below average one considering Perkins is gone and Jermaine O'Neal hasn't played. They would be a 40ish wins team. Without Pierce, they could still be a +50 wins team.

That is completely subjective. And apples are better than oranges because I say so.

Actually our record without KG would suggest other wise. In 08 he missed 26 games and we went 18-8 that is a 58 win team and they took the eventual eastern conference champs to 7 games with a significantly worse Rondo playing the point. How can you be so sure they all of a sudden struggle to win 40 games with KG down. 26 games is a pretty good sample size.

In the 6 games without KG this year the D actually didnt suffer (and Perk wasnt playing either) from a ppg basis (91.3 vs 91.7). Actually the offense sputtered more without him bc bbd was awful.

And as far as winning 50 + without PP again you just made it up because you feel that way. I do not believe they would be able to but we do not know because PP is available to play 99% of the time.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #80 on: March 08, 2011, 10:35:57 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

That's not true at all. Have you forgotten all the Pierce is lazy threads? All the trade Ray threads? All the KG is done threads? Just the other day many were complaining about KG and how he was playing in that game against the Bucks, thankfully he did better as the game went on.

Remove all the "explanations", and you'll still find yourself with Rondo being beat off the dribble, reluctant to penetrate, missing foul shots, over-passing, going for steals instead of keeping with his man, not taking shots when he should be, etc. depending on the game.

It's fine if you don't think this isn't much of an issue for him, but the flaws will still be there.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2011, 10:47:19 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2011, 11:21:40 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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Pierce is our best offensive player. KG is our best defensive player. Both are indispensable, so they're like our yin and yang.

KG + Pierce are tied for best player.

I would go with that.  I still think we would struggle to win more without Pierce than Garnett though.
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Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2011, 11:35:22 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

That's not true at all. Have you forgotten all the Pierce is lazy threads? All the trade Ray threads? All the KG is done threads? Just the other day many were complaining about KG and how he was playing in that game against the Bucks, thankfully he did better as the game went on.

  I think there's a difference between saying that you think that KG and Ray are succumbing to age and to saying that Rondo passes the ball out of selfishness.

Remove all the "explanations", and you'll still find yourself with Rondo being beat off the dribble, reluctant to penetrate, missing foul shots, over-passing, going for steals instead of keeping with his man, not taking shots when he should be, etc. depending on the game.

  On one hand that's true, but on the other hand people might have a more realistic perspective when they make the complaints (or, then again, maybe not...). People might actually realize that all point guards get beat off the dribble, and most do more often than Rondo. Maybe they could realize that Rondo takes close to the average amount of 20 footers for a pg. Maybe they'd see that while Rondo overpasses at times the same is true for RR/PP/KG. Or, again, maybe not.

It's fine if you don't think this isn't much of an issue for him, but the flaws will still be there.


  I've never said he doesn't have flaws. I don't disagree that he's a poor foul shooter or that he would be better if he could hit more outside shots. I don't disagree that at times his play hurts our offense. I just think that sometimes the way the other people play also hurt our offense, and that Rondo is a very good player in spite of those flaws, as opposed to being a good player *aside* from those flaws.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2011, 11:47:29 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

That's not true at all. Have you forgotten all the Pierce is lazy threads? All the trade Ray threads? All the KG is done threads? Just the other day many were complaining about KG and how he was playing in that game against the Bucks, thankfully he did better as the game went on.

  I think there's a difference between saying that you think that KG and Ray are succumbing to age and to saying that Rondo passes the ball out of selfishness.

Remove all the "explanations", and you'll still find yourself with Rondo being beat off the dribble, reluctant to penetrate, missing foul shots, over-passing, going for steals instead of keeping with his man, not taking shots when he should be, etc. depending on the game.

  On one hand that's true, but on the other hand people might have a more realistic perspective when they make the complaints (or, then again, maybe not...). People might actually realize that all point guards get beat off the dribble, and most do more often than Rondo. Maybe they could realize that Rondo takes close to the average amount of 20 footers for a pg. Maybe they'd see that while Rondo overpasses at times the same is true for RR/PP/KG. Or, again, maybe not.

It's fine if you don't think this isn't much of an issue for him, but the flaws will still be there.


  I've never said he doesn't have flaws. I don't disagree that he's a poor foul shooter or that he would be better if he could hit more outside shots. I don't disagree that at times his play hurts our offense. I just think that sometimes the way the other people play also hurt our offense, and that Rondo is a very good player in spite of those flaws, as opposed to being a good player *aside* from those flaws.

At least from my standpoint, to me Rondo gets a vast of the criticism (and the praise) just because of the role he has on this team. So when he does or doesn't do something it has an exponential impact.

As for defense it's just a very tricky situation because it's hard to find the combination of an offensive floor general who is also a capable defender. Most great PG defenders are eating the bench because of offensive deficiencies. So the, who would you rather have question is not easily answerable unless you go looking into the elite PGs in the league. Which is what makes Rondo a unique talent to have.

What's frustrating about the situation is that Rondo's problems defensively, whatever they may be, are more of a discipline nature rather than a skill/talent standpoint.

For example, Eddie House wasn't a good defender by great stretch of the imagination. But he did a better job at staying in front of his defender, though often his limitations led to him just being mismatched. But Rondo has the tools so I would like to see a bit more consistency on that regard. He's still a very good defender, it's just that what he doesn't do particularly well is quite costly at times.

But enough of that. I'm confident that he'll elevate his game during the playoffs, which will be awesome.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:53:55 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2011, 11:51:27 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Practice in half hr. Pierce lone player on the court. This is how you become EC Player of the week. http://yfrog.com/gyt3ihtj

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2011, 12:01:28 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Im glad we all finally agree that Rondo is not our best player and never has been.

Im getting sick of his inconsistency, lack of effort and careless playstyle. Great players show up EVERY game.

Its clear that Rondo isnt "having a bad game". He just simply isnt trying.

Who makes between the leg behind the back passes on a clear easy fast break? The guy tries too hard and is too cocky.

  First of all, saying great players show up EVERY game generally means one of three things: there are no great players because nobody shows up EVERY game, you don't see them play often enough to know whether they show up or not, or you can't tell if they show up or not when you watch them. Secondly, one of the reasons Rondo's seen in such a bad light on this board is because people always try and assign ridiculous motives to everything he does.

   He's bored, he's disinterested, he misses Perk, he passes the ball because he's selfish and he's trying to pad his stats, he's afraid to shoot, he's afraid to drive, he's afraid to take foul shots, he lets people get past him on purpose so he can poke the ball away. He's a lazy gambler on defense, looking to pad his steals stats. It doesn't matter if he's one of the best defensive pgs in the game, he should be one of the best ever. That's off the top of my head.

  Watch KG/PP/RA play and post a similar reason for every bad game or bad play they have, every time they don't run back or pass up an open shot. People will think you're crazy. Write it about Rondo and you're one of the crowd.

That's not true at all. Have you forgotten all the Pierce is lazy threads? All the trade Ray threads? All the KG is done threads? Just the other day many were complaining about KG and how he was playing in that game against the Bucks, thankfully he did better as the game went on.

  I think there's a difference between saying that you think that KG and Ray are succumbing to age and to saying that Rondo passes the ball out of selfishness.

Remove all the "explanations", and you'll still find yourself with Rondo being beat off the dribble, reluctant to penetrate, missing foul shots, over-passing, going for steals instead of keeping with his man, not taking shots when he should be, etc. depending on the game.

  On one hand that's true, but on the other hand people might have a more realistic perspective when they make the complaints (or, then again, maybe not...). People might actually realize that all point guards get beat off the dribble, and most do more often than Rondo. Maybe they could realize that Rondo takes close to the average amount of 20 footers for a pg. Maybe they'd see that while Rondo overpasses at times the same is true for RR/PP/KG. Or, again, maybe not.

It's fine if you don't think this isn't much of an issue for him, but the flaws will still be there.


  I've never said he doesn't have flaws. I don't disagree that he's a poor foul shooter or that he would be better if he could hit more outside shots. I don't disagree that at times his play hurts our offense. I just think that sometimes the way the other people play also hurt our offense, and that Rondo is a very good player in spite of those flaws, as opposed to being a good player *aside* from those flaws.

At least from my standpoint, to me Rondo gets a vast of the criticism (and the praise) just because of the role he has on this team. So when he does or doesn't do something it has an exponential impact.

  Possibly, but if we had consecutive games where Ray and Paul and Rajon gave up 25 points we'd likely get one thread criticizing one player, not three threads criticizing three players.

As for defense it's just a very tricky situation because it's hard to find the combination of an offensive floor general who is also a capable defender. Most great PG defenders are eating the bench because of offensive deficiencies. So the, who would you rather have question is not easily answerable unless you go looking into the elite PGs in the league. Which is what makes Rondo a unique talent to have.


  Many of those elite defenders that don't play much can defend like they do because of that role. They don't have to work hard on both ends of the floor, but they also don't have to worry about keeping it up for 40 minutes and they don't stay on the floor enough to get into foul trouble.

Re: Pierce is our best player
« Reply #87 on: March 08, 2011, 12:08:45 PM »

Offline anthony83

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Paul Pierce is making a sensational season with good rates, I think the Big Three (Ray, Kevin and Paul) are very important for the team.

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