Danny traded the wrong member of the Starting 5

[KobeShesNotConsenting!]

Come on. Rondo runs this team, he is crucial to keeping our guys successful offensively that was proved when he missed time. Perk on the other hand was a glorified role player. Loved the guy but I gotta call this for what it is. Perk played like 25 minutes a game, less than baby, and we didnt even close with him. We remained a defensive juggernaut and beat all the top teams multiple times all year without him. I'm not saying he won't be missed for what he did, but we've proven there are other ways to win. He was BY FAR the most expendable starter and to say his importance was on the same level as rondo, or any of the big 4 is far from the truth.

[footey]

TP to the OP for having the guts to ask the question. I would not trade Rondo for any PG except, maybe Chris Paul or Derek Rose (at least I'd think about it) but you are not at all absurd to at least raise the issue.  I feel that DWil is not nearly as good a distributor or penetrator as Rondo. Chris Paul is in Rondo's league as a passer, but is not as creative a play maker. Ditto Rose.  The OP's point is a good one: we had two starters who have poor outside shots. Perk was one, and Rondo the other. Rondo probably is destined to remain a below average outside shooter. Enough statistical information has been gathered in 4.75 NBA seasons to yield this verdict. However, most of us prefer to keep Rondo because he enhances greatly our ability to exploit the Big 3, each of whom is a great outside shooter, and each of whom, with age, will continue to have increasing difficulty creating their own shot.  So the real asset of Rondo is his ability to prolong the careers of the Big 3.  Without Rondo, I doubt very much that Ray Allen would be an NBA All Star this year.  The real question is, once the Big 3 go, does Rondo's value diminish, or will he be able to prop up other NBA shooters?  

[Rondoholic]

Might have been mentioned.  Even if we were to agree that Williams is better than Rondo as a whole (which I'm not), the money talks.  I'd much rather have Rondo locked up at 11M per year for 4 more years or whatever it is than have to pay Williams 18M after next season.

[BballTim]

Deron really isn't that high of a usage guy, his usage is only 3 points higher than Rondo's. (22.7 v. 19.6)

  Deron clocks in at 26.5, not 22.7. All of the big three are in the 18-22 range, probably averaging 20 or so.

[GoGreen9]

Lord_of_the17Rings,

Alright, like you said, it doesn't look like you and I are going to come to an agreement on Rondo's impact on the Celtics. I understand the title of this thread, but I still don't understand how Williams helps this franchise out now, or 5 years down the road. Other than that, you basically were very repetitive in your last post, so I can't really touch on a lot. Like I said, in my opinion, Rondo is a better fit than any PG would be here. If we were to trade Rondo tomorrow, straight up for CP3, our title chances wouldn't look as good as they would with Rondo.

[GoGreen9]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

[dpaps]

Lord_of_the17Rings,

Alright, like you said, it doesn't look like you and I are going to come to an agreement on Rondo's impact on the Celtics. I understand the title of this thread, but I still don't understand how Williams helps this franchise out now, or 5 years down the road. Other than that, you basically were very repetitive in your last post, so I can't really touch on a lot. Like I said, in my opinion, Rondo is a better fit than any PG would be here. If we were to trade Rondo tomorrow, straight up for CP3, our title chances wouldn't look as good as they would with Rondo.

I disagree. I mean I've never once tried to argue that we SHOULD trade Rondo. He is a great fit for our team and we know we can win a title with him. BUT that does not mean that it is impossible to improve the team with a different point guard.

I have league pass and watch a whole lot of NBA games and CP3, Rose, and Dwill (and probably Westbrook) are better than Rondo. Our offense wouldn't lose a step with them, it would actually get better imo. CP3 is every bit the creator Rondo is (I would argue a little better), he's just as unselfish, but he is a better shooter and finisher at the rim. He draws fouls and he can hit FTs. CP3 is a better on ball defender. Everyone has seen what Rose is doing this year, he's the MVP in my eyes. Westbrook has developed into an absolute star this year and beat the Celtics without KDur this year. And Derron Williams is a fantastic all around point guard. He's a great distributer, probably has the most rounded offensive game of all these point guards and doesn't hurt you on defense.

Rondo has an element to his game that is very unique, I've never seen any player in the NBA ever play like Rondo does, and it works well with our team, but again, that doesn't mean we couldn't be improved with a different pg. I'm telling you, if CP3 and Rondo were switched, the Celtics would be better and people on this board would think it was absolute blasphemy to argue that Rondo is better than him.

[dpaps]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

[scottwedman]

Perk was the right guy to trade.

Green was the wrong guy to get back.  I would have tried to get Nene from Denver.

[dpaps]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

How many games this year have you watched the Hornets play? How many games this year have you watched the Jazz play?

I'm guessing not many, yet you're so sure in your evaluations of players that you have very rarely seen that you feel entitled to call out other posters.

It's like people who would argue that the US is definitely a better country to live in than ones they've never even visited. You have this blind allegiance. Unless you've experienced both, you can't compare.

Unless you've watched CP3 or Dwill extensively, you shouldn't feel so sure about your opinion to call out other people.

[GoGreen9]

Lord_of_the17Rings,

Alright, like you said, it doesn't look like you and I are going to come to an agreement on Rondo's impact on the Celtics. I understand the title of this thread, but I still don't understand how Williams helps this franchise out now, or 5 years down the road. Other than that, you basically were very repetitive in your last post, so I can't really touch on a lot. Like I said, in my opinion, Rondo is a better fit than any PG would be here. If we were to trade Rondo tomorrow, straight up for CP3, our title chances wouldn't look as good as they would with Rondo.

I disagree. I mean I've never once tried to argue that we SHOULD trade Rondo. He is a great fit for our team and we know we can win a title with him. BUT that does not mean that it is impossible to improve the team with a different point guard.

I have league pass and watch a whole lot of NBA games and CP3, Rose, and Dwill (and probably Westbrook) are better than Rondo. Our offense wouldn't lose a step with them, it would actually get better imo. CP3 is every bit the creator Rondo is (I would argue a little better), he's just as unselfish, but he is a better shooter and finisher at the rim. He draws fouls and he can hit FTs. CP3 is a better on ball defender. Everyone has seen what Rose is doing this year, he's the MVP in my eyes. Westbrook has developed into an absolute star this year and beat the Celtics without KDur this year. And Derron Williams is a fantastic all around point guard. He's a great distributer, probably has the most rounded offensive game of all these point guards and doesn't hurt you on defense.

Rondo has an element to his game that is very unique, I've never seen any player in the NBA ever play like Rondo does, and it works well with our team, but again, that doesn't mean we couldn't be improved with a different pg. I'm telling you, if CP3 and Rondo were switched, the Celtics would be better and people on this board would think it was absolute blasphemy to argue that Rondo is better than him.

Lets start off with D-Will. First of all, it's absoutely ludacris that you say he wouldn't hurt the Celtics on defense. D-Will is not a good defender by any means, so if you were to put him on the Celtics, they have no guard defense at all. I can name at least 10 players who are better defenders than Williams. Also, if D-Will were to be on the Celtics, he would take touches away from Allen and Pierce, that is no secret. D-Will adds nothing the Celtics lack, and his strengths aren't as strong as the strengths already on the Celtics roster.

As for Rose, he wouldn't be as good as fit as Rondo is with Boston. He's a great scorer, something we don't need. He is no where near as good as a decision maker as Rondo is. He doesn't play half the defense Rondo does. He isn't nearly as good of a rebounder as Rondo is. Bottom line is, Rose needs to score to be effective. He has yet to show he can dominate a game with his passing, like Rondo does all the time. Explain to me why the Celtics need a guy who shoots about 10 more times a game more than Rondo does?

Finally, for CP3, he is the only guy that I can see fitting with the Celtics, but still not as good as Rondo. They are both Grade A decision makers, good defenders, difference is, CP3 needs some more shots than Rondo.

[GoGreen9]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

How many games this year have you watched the Hornets play? How many games this year have you watched the Jazz play?

I'm guessing not many, yet you're so sure in your evaluations of players that you have very rarely seen that you feel entitled to call out other posters.

It's like people who would argue that the US is definitely a better country to live in than ones they've never even visited. You have this blind allegiance. Unless you've experienced both, you can't compare.

Unless you've watched CP3 or Dwill extensively, you shouldn't feel so sure about your opinion to call out other people.

With Rondo:

102. 3 PPG
26.5 APG
51.5 FG%
14.1 TO per game
39.2 3Pt.%

Without Rondo, the Celtics numbers look as follows:

94 PPG
22.1 APG
47.1 FG%
12.6 TO per game
31.7 3 Pt. %

This is updated on the first of January.

One thing I wanted to add to my Rose part is, why has Korvers %'s from three gone down this year? Is it because Rose isn't giving him good looks, or he magically became a worse shooter? Why is all the Celtics shooting percentages up since Rondo has been there? Hm..

[GoGreen9]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

When you say Rondo can't keep a man in front of him, it usually means you are pointing to him not being that good of a defender.

Also, to touch on your other post, I have watched a ton of NBA games this year. I have seen double digit games from each, CP3, and D-Will. If you honestly think D-Will is a good defender, you don't watch him.

Like I said, I am not calling anybody out, but facts are facts.

[Fafnir]

Deron really isn't that high of a usage guy, his usage is only 3 points higher than Rondo's. (22.7 v. 19.6)

  Deron clocks in at 26.5, not 22.7. All of the big three are in the 18-22 range, probably averaging 20 or so.

Depends on which site you are using. Espn or bball reference. Either way he's not a high usage chucked by any measure.

[dpaps]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

You said you would trade Rondo for D-Wll, which is a terrible idea.

And, I have only missed a handful of Celtics games, by the way. I rarely ever see Rondo get beat off the dribble, so I don't know what games you are watching. There aren't four better defensive Point Guards in the NBA. If you think they are, list them.

I mean just because you say it's a terrible idea, doesn't mean that it is.

All I said is that Rondo can be improved at keeping his man in front of him. It's a fact. How many times does Rondo let his man go by and try to poke it away from behind. It works a lot of times, but you can't poke the ball from behind unless you are behind your man. If you rarely see Rondo get beat off the dribble you're watching the game with your eyes closed. Did I ever say Rondo is a bad defensive point guard? (waiting for you to go read), No, of course not.  Did I say that he can be better at keeping his man in front of him? Yes, and he can. 

When you say Rondo can't keep a man in front of him, it usually means you are pointing to him not being that good of a defender.

Also, to touch on your other post, I have watched a ton of NBA games this year. I have seen double digit games from each, CP3, and D-Will. If you honestly think D-Will is a good defender, you don't watch him.

Did I say Rondo "can't keep a man infront of him" ? I mean come on, read the post before you comment.

I said Rondo can be better at keeping his man in front of him. That is a fact. Period. If you don't think it's possible for Rondo to be better at keeping his man in front of him, argue that. Not only that, but I explicitly said Rondo IS a good defender.

I mean you act like I'm the only person in the world who thinks DWill is better than Rondo and by your comments I don't believe you one bit about watching double digit Hornets and Jazz games this year.

And your points about the Celtics being better with Rondo than without him... Clearly. No one has ever argued that the Celtics are not better with Rondo versus without Rondo. It's absolutely irrelevant and if you can't see that logical connection, we don't need to continue this debate. But just to play your game... What do you think the Hornets numbers look like with CP3 versus without him. What do you think the Bulls record would be this year without D Rose? Do you honestly think that the fact that the Celtics are a better team with Rondo versus without him is proof that he is better than CP3, Rose, and Dwill???