Danny traded the wrong member of the Starting 5

[pearljammer10]

Your a big Perk fan and its blinded your reason.  We were winning .77 % of the time before Perk came back.  .58% of the time with him this year.

Howard scored 28 on him in Feb, Robin Lopez 18 ( yes Robin Lopez) and Bynum scored 16 last time we played the Lakers.  This defensive prowess you speak of has not been the same Perk from previous years.  I think he lost a lot of mobility.  You can bet your butts that the Celtics took note of these stats and trends.  The reinjury is the final straw.

I hate this kind of stat. Last year we were 23 - 5 without Big Baby, as soon as he came back, we went 27 - 27 with him... So we totally should have traded him cause he caused all our problems.

Anyway. Did you really suggest we trade Rondo? The number one assists man in the league. Please.

[GoGreen9]

Alright, well first off, this doesn't really hurt our chances as much as you would like to think. As I have said in past threads, there is no team in the East that can really take advantage of the size we lost in the past days.

To touch on the Rondo comments, that is absolutely ludacris. First off, there isn't a better PG in the NBA that would fit in Boston better than Rondo does. Are you serious with your Nash/Ellis comments? Ellis isn't even a true PG, and the offense wouldn't run nearly as smooth as it does with Rondo. He's a score first player, and wouldn't get anyone their looks like Rondo does. Nash wouldn't either, and considering he is very old, it would be an awful move. If we got him, and let go of Rondo, our title chances would be destroyed for this year, and for many years to come.


Finally, since I am new here, I would like to say I think Rondo is the best PG in the NBA. I don't see how he's overrated defensively, or offensively. If you would like to state why you think this, I would love to rebuttle.

First off GoGreen9, I agree with you that Rondo is a great for this offense.  He is truly one of the few pass first guards in the league which meshes very well with a team that has 3 legit scorers on the court with him.  He also happens to be one heck of a passer.  Catching Cousy's single season assist record was remarkable.

I disagree with your comment that Nash would not be able to distribute the ball to the big three as equally or more effectively.  Steve Nash, even at his current age is one of the best passer/decision makers in the game.  And the fact that he is a great shooter and is not afraid to shoot when open, would not be a detriment to the big 3. It would help them.

In terms of asking me to state why I think Rondo is an overrated player, my feeling is that while Rondo is a great fit, there are other point guards that could fit very well on this team.  As Bill Simmons mentioned the other day, I'm not sure if there has ever been a player that has “brought more to the table” and “taken more off of the table” than Rondo.  As already mentioned he is an exceptional passer and floor leader.  He is a great rebounder at the guard position.  And while I don't agree with most that he is a great defensive player, he is certainly better than a lot of other guards.  His also has flaws.  He struggles to take and hit wide open jump shots (not even taking them is more of the problem).  He shoots 50% from the free throw line.  And while I recognize his assist to turnover ration is very good, he still turns the ball over at inopportune times, whether it is continuing to insist on throwing lobs to KG (even though KG hasn't been comfortable receiving those in over a year), or holding the ball for 20 seconds out of the 24 second shot clock waiting for a specific play to develop. (These last two ‘flaws’ are obviously my personal subjective opinion on what I see).

Again, I agree with you that Rondo is a great fit for this team.  But I would assert this team could win a Championship with some other PG's out there.  I respect your opinion that he is the best PG in the league, but I absolutely would not put him in the same class as D Williams, CP3 or D. Rose.

Nash takes three shots more than Rondo, but the reason being why I don't think he would be as good a fit Rondo is, is because Rondo is a better passer, gets everyone great looks, and can dominate the game without scoring, which is remarkable.

As for your next paragraph, I don't have much else to say. Besides the fact I totally disagree there are VERY few PG's who could do the job Rondo does in Boston. As for the flaws you stated, Rondo as everybody knows, isn't a good shooter. But, just remember he isn't asked to score on this team. If he was, I could see his scoring averages go up at a good rate. On you saying Rondo causes some dumb turnovers, I think there are very few Point Guards in the NBA who are as good as of a decision maker as he is. I believe you say he is a tremendous floor general, and good decision maker, so that sort of contradicts you saying he makes some dumb turnovers, unless your reffering to the dumb common turnovers everyone makes once in a while.

[Edgar]

Anyway. Did you really suggest we trade Rondo? The number one assists man in the league. Please.

same thought

moreso
is there any other starting 4 you trade for Jeff Green over perk

[Lord_of_the17Rings]

Alright, well first off, this doesn't really hurt our chances as much as you would like to think. As I have said in past threads, there is no team in the East that can really take advantage of the size we lost in the past days.

To touch on the Rondo comments, that is absolutely ludacris. First off, there isn't a better PG in the NBA that would fit in Boston better than Rondo does. Are you serious with your Nash/Ellis comments? Ellis isn't even a true PG, and the offense wouldn't run nearly as smooth as it does with Rondo. He's a score first player, and wouldn't get anyone their looks like Rondo does. Nash wouldn't either, and considering he is very old, it would be an awful move. If we got him, and let go of Rondo, our title chances would be destroyed for this year, and for many years to come.


Finally, since I am new here, I would like to say I think Rondo is the best PG in the NBA. I don't see how he's overrated defensively, or offensively. If you would like to state why you think this, I would love to rebuttle.

First off GoGreen9, I agree with you that Rondo is a great for this offense.  He is truly one of the few pass first guards in the league which meshes very well with a team that has 3 legit scorers on the court with him.  He also happens to be one heck of a passer.  Catching Cousy's single season assist record was remarkable.

I disagree with your comment that Nash would not be able to distribute the ball to the big three as equally or more effectively.  Steve Nash, even at his current age is one of the best passer/decision makers in the game.  And the fact that he is a great shooter and is not afraid to shoot when open, would not be a detriment to the big 3. It would help them.

In terms of asking me to state why I think Rondo is an overrated player, my feeling is that while Rondo is a great fit, there are other point guards that could fit very well on this team.  As Bill Simmons mentioned the other day, I'm not sure if there has ever been a player that has “brought more to the table” and “taken more off of the table” than Rondo.  As already mentioned he is an exceptional passer and floor leader.  He is a great rebounder at the guard position.  And while I don't agree with most that he is a great defensive player, he is certainly better than a lot of other guards.  His also has flaws.  He struggles to take and hit wide open jump shots (not even taking them is more of the problem).  He shoots 50% from the free throw line.  And while I recognize his assist to turnover ration is very good, he still turns the ball over at inopportune times, whether it is continuing to insist on throwing lobs to KG (even though KG hasn't been comfortable receiving those in over a year), or holding the ball for 20 seconds out of the 24 second shot clock waiting for a specific play to develop. (These last two ‘flaws’ are obviously my personal subjective opinion on what I see).

Again, I agree with you that Rondo is a great fit for this team.  But I would assert this team could win a Championship with some other PG's out there.  I respect your opinion that he is the best PG in the league, but I absolutely would not put him in the same class as D Williams, CP3 or D. Rose.

Nash takes three shots more than Rondo, but the reason being why I don't think he would be as good a fit Rondo is, is because Rondo is a better passer, gets everyone great looks, and can dominate the game without scoring, which is remarkable.

As for your next paragraph, I don't have much else to say. Besides the fact I totally disagree there are VERY few PG's who could do the job Rondo does in Boston. As for the flaws you stated, Rondo as everybody knows, isn't a good shooter. But, just remember he isn't asked to score on this team. If he was, I could see his scoring averages go up at a good rate. On you saying Rondo causes some dumb turnovers, I think there are very few Point Guards in the NBA who are as good as of a decision maker as he is. I believe you say he is a tremendous floor general, and good decision maker, so that sort of contradicts you saying he makes some dumb turnovers, unless your reffering to the dumb common turnovers everyone makes once in a while.

GoGreen9,

I have sort of veered off of my original topic and gotten into a discussion on how good of a point guard Rondo is.  I think you and I can agree to disagree on exactly where we rank Rondo in terms of top point guards.

I think the title of the thread and my original premise had more to do with what I saw as the best move Danny could make to keep us in the Championship Hunt and set us up for the future (as he described this deal was).  I was largely referring to the trade of Deron Williams, and how NJ was able to obtain him for a 3rd Tier PG, and a completely unproven draft pick.  My feeling is that if they gave up Williams for that, wouldn’t they have considered a Rondo centered deal?  In my opinion as we move towards a world without the big 3, the future of your franchise is brighter with Williams than Rondo.  Again, obviously just my opinion.  And in terms of short term – trying to win a championship this year, you can now keep and play Perk in crunch time because Williams is a threat to shoot and score and you don’t have two non-scoring threats on the floor.

Granted none of this addresses the real issue of not having a backup to spell Paul and Ray.  I get that.  And so I get why they did this deal.  It just sort of amazes me how a lot of people brush of Perk’s importance to this team (I’m not saying you are one of them), but at the same time if you even mention Rondo’s name, they question your sanity/sobriety.  If you are talking about the future, D. Williams, Rose and Paul or guys who can carry a franchise, when you don’t have 3 superstars.  Look at their respective teams of the last few years, and how they have been able to keep them competitive.  I love Rondo, particularly for this team he has right now, but I don’t believe he can carry a franchise when it doesn’t have other scoring stars.

[snively]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a HUGE Perk fan, and I don't agree with this deal at all.  Long term, it may very well help us.  But this year, I don't see how it gives us a better chance to win #18.  And to me, that is all that matters right now.

What I would have felt better about, is if Danny had tried to make a move with Rondo.  (Note: I also think this trade was as much of an indictment on Rondo's offensive limitations as they were about Perk.)  Danny made several comments about needing more scoring options on the floor to close out games, and how it would open things up for Rondo.

I am not saying that is was possible to get Deron Williams, and NJ came up with a pretty attractive package, but I really hope that Danny at least looked into the possibility.  To me Williams would have been a big upgrade for this year and going forward.  I also would have been interested in other PG's like Nash or Ellis, both of whom would seem to have been available on some level.  Nash would obviously be a short term solution but would be an equally effective distributor with a much more potent offensive game.  And since I think Rondo is one of the most overrated defensive players (and players) in the league, I don't know how much you lose there either.  Yes, he gets steals (but so did Iverson).  He is atrocious at keeping his man in front of him, and opposing point guards consistently get into the paint.  People say Perk's success was largely a product of his environment.  I would argue (as Chris Paul did) that Rondo's numbers/success is also directly attributable to playing with Paul, Ray, and KG.  I’m not saying he isn’t a good player, but he benefits from the talent around him, just as much as Perk did.

I guess I didn't intend to turn this into a 'bash Rondo' thread, but I feel like Danny was looking at the wrong starter to trade if he wanted to upgrade our offense without sacrificing our defense.  Should we go up against LA or SA in the Finals (god willing), I think we are going to wish we had Perk back.

You have to take usage into account here.  A high-usage offensive powerhouse like Deron Williams wouldn't be as useful in Boston's starting line-up, where you have 3 shooting stars in the Big 3 to take the majority of the shots.  Yes, he'd shoot a better % on the shots Rondo takes, but there aren't that many to be had.  And in Rondo's hands each of the big 3 are as good or better than Deron at putting the ball in the hole.  

Thus, the offensive improvement would likely be marginal unless you broke up the Big 3 and put one of them on the bench to allow Deron to take on a higher usage role (without decreasing the contributions of one of the Big 3).  And we really don't have the personnel to do that.

Further, Deron isn't up to Rondo's caliber in the areas that the C's depend on their PGs, namely securing extra possessions for their offense through rebounds and steals, pressuring the ball, disrupting pick and rolls defensively and providing help D.

The only upgrade to Rondo for what the C's need from their PG in my mind is Chris Paul.  Like Rondo, Paul specializes in using his teammates as weapons and securing his team extra possessions.  Unlike Rondo he's deadly from anywhere on the court.  Not quite as gifted as Rondo defensively, IMHO, but an upgrade overall.

[dpaps]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

[GreenEnvy]

I haven't read much of this thread, but Perk, as much as I love the guy, was EASILY the least valuable of the starters.

I think this is being blown out of proportion a little. Perk is a very good center, but some are acting like we traded Rondo for an expiring contract.

[BballTim]

I would trade Rondo for DWill. I have no problem that we didnt but I think deron is that good. I think the OP has some fair points. I also think Rondo could be a lot better at keeping his man infront of him. I def wouldn't trade him for monta, nor nash. But like roy said, dwill and cp3 are probably better.

If the main reason you think we should get rid of Rondo is because he can't keep his man in front of him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah because I said that we should get rid of Rondo... Read the post before you comment.

But yes Rondo could improve greatly in keeping his man in front of him and if you don't agree with that, you're not watching the Celtics.

  Seriously? Do you watch them? Almost every time an opposing pg wants to get past Rondo they have someone come out and set a pick for them. He gets beat off the dribble a lot less than most pgs I see.

  If Rondo's as bad at keeping his man in front of him as you say you should be able to list quite a few pgs that are clearly better at it than he is.

[Celtics4ever]

Call me crazy but does anyone else think Rondo is going to be better with a running Jeff Green on the team instead of some old legs?  Someone to run and fill the lanes that can finish is precious to a PG with defensive chops, I think.

Rondo isn't perfect but despite his flaws he finds a way to impact games.  Either steals, scoring or assists this kid finds a way to contribute most nights.  I agree that Perk held the least value of the starting five.  All star appearances bear this out too, folks.

My sympathies go out to all the fans here that Perk was their guy.   I think we always over value "our" guys though and it clouds our judgement.

Truth be told, a lot has to happen yet to make this a good deal.   Shaq and Jermaine have to return to form of sorts.   We have to get lucky in the buyout sweepstakes.  West has to return to form.  I still think we are a top ten team if none of this happens.   But if it does happen then I think we are in solid shape for the future and the title run this year.

[celtics2]

If I had a choice to make as GM I would build for the long run. All this Championship stuff is old and nonsense. Putting this old team through the rigors of the playoffs may not be fun to watch. I do think they will be competitive though. I don't want to see the Celtics team revert to what we had post Bird era. That was painful. I think our chances of winning another Championship this season are about 30%. We are getting creaky, Hungier, better teams and more of them. The reasons are obvious.

It's also obvious some like individual players more than the team in total. Trading Perk was a good move. His personality has kept him form improving as a player. The team made him look good. Coupled with past injuries he's got a gurney following him around. How many teams would take Perk over Rondo??

[jasail]

I get what you are trying to say here, but I disagree with it.

1) The gulf between Perk's offensive limitations and Rondo's is vast.  Rondo is inconsistent with him jumpshot and is not aggressive enough at the end of the game because he is so bad from the line.  But Perkins can't shoot outside 10 feet, can't shoot inside 10 feet either, has some ugly moves on the block and struggles to go up with passes underneath or with offensive boards.  So while Rondo may have offensive limitations, Perk is a liability.

2)Rondo controls the touches and egos of 4 HoFers, he is in charge of the Celtics offense, gets the guys the ball where they like it and is responsible for the tempo the C's play at. It takes much more time to build that type of chemistry than it does to plug in a second string forward and center. New PG and everything changes.

3) Say what you will about Rondo's eagerness to make steals and how that results in sometimes poor on ball defense.  It's a fair point, but he plays passing lanes well, is fantastic on the double team, and fights through screens.  DWill may give you similar effort, but Nash isn't fighting through screens or staying in front of anyone.

4) Monta Ellis is a terrible player with great stats.  He is inefficient as they come and has no interest in playing defense or sharing the ball.  If the C's traded Rondo to bring in Monta, I'd consider turning in my fan card.

5) A lot is being said about Perk's toughness, aggression and defense.  IMO this is becoming a classic case of confusing correlation with causality.  Perkins embodied the toughness and grit of this team but he was not the reason for it.  This team isn't going to lose it's defensive identity now that he is gone.   

[Fafnir]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a HUGE Perk fan, and I don't agree with this deal at all.  Long term, it may very well help us.  But this year, I don't see how it gives us a better chance to win #18.  And to me, that is all that matters right now.

What I would have felt better about, is if Danny had tried to make a move with Rondo.  (Note: I also think this trade was as much of an indictment on Rondo's offensive limitations as they were about Perk.)  Danny made several comments about needing more scoring options on the floor to close out games, and how it would open things up for Rondo.

I am not saying that is was possible to get Deron Williams, and NJ came up with a pretty attractive package, but I really hope that Danny at least looked into the possibility.  To me Williams would have been a big upgrade for this year and going forward.  I also would have been interested in other PG's like Nash or Ellis, both of whom would seem to have been available on some level.  Nash would obviously be a short term solution but would be an equally effective distributor with a much more potent offensive game.  And since I think Rondo is one of the most overrated defensive players (and players) in the league, I don't know how much you lose there either.  Yes, he gets steals (but so did Iverson).  He is atrocious at keeping his man in front of him, and opposing point guards consistently get into the paint.  People say Perk's success was largely a product of his environment.  I would argue (as Chris Paul did) that Rondo's numbers/success is also directly attributable to playing with Paul, Ray, and KG.  I’m not saying he isn’t a good player, but he benefits from the talent around him, just as much as Perk did.

I guess I didn't intend to turn this into a 'bash Rondo' thread, but I feel like Danny was looking at the wrong starter to trade if he wanted to upgrade our offense without sacrificing our defense.  Should we go up against LA or SA in the Finals (god willing), I think we are going to wish we had Perk back.

You have to take usage into account here.  A high-usage offensive powerhouse like Deron Williams wouldn't be as useful in Boston's starting line-up, where you have 3 shooting stars in the Big 3 to take the majority of the shots.  Yes, he'd shoot a better % on the shots Rondo takes, but there aren't that many to be had.  And in Rondo's hands each of the big 3 are as good or better than Deron at putting the ball in the hole.  

Thus, the offensive improvement would likely be marginal unless you broke up the Big 3 and put one of them on the bench to allow Deron to take on a higher usage role (without decreasing the contributions of one of the Big 3).  And we really don't have the personnel to do that.

Further, Deron isn't up to Rondo's caliber in the areas that the C's depend on their PGs, namely securing extra possessions for their offense through rebounds and steals, pressuring the ball, disrupting pick and rolls defensively and providing help D.

The only upgrade to Rondo for what the C's need from their PG in my mind is Chris Paul.  Like Rondo, Paul specializes in using his teammates as weapons and securing his team extra possessions.  Unlike Rondo he's deadly from anywhere on the court.  Not quite as gifted as Rondo defensively, IMHO, but an upgrade overall.

Deron really isn't that high of a usage guy, his usage is only 3 points higher than Rondo's. (22.7 v. 19.6)

[Tai]

Just off Perk's health, I don't see the point of keeping him over Rondo. I'm not gonna second guess Perk just cause he's traded; he looked good when he came back. But Perk getting hurt again, even if it is only for another week, and then the fact that Danny had to decide whether to give him the money he wanted at the end of the season...it's understandable why Danny traded Perk.

[Tmarine17]

The only person I would even consider trading Rondo for would be Rose and that's only because he brings instant offense, and can still play defense as well.  He's the only PG in the league that has an all around better game then Rondo IMO,  and would actually fit with our style of play.   I might think about Paul if he can get back to where he was a couple years ago.

[Birdbrain]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a HUGE Perk fan, and I don't agree with this deal at all.  Long term, it may very well help us.  But this year, I don't see how it gives us a better chance to win #18.  And to me, that is all that matters right now.

What I would have felt better about, is if Danny had tried to make a move with Rondo.  (Note: I also think this trade was as much of an indictment on Rondo's offensive limitations as they were about Perk.)  Danny made several comments about needing more scoring options on the floor to close out games, and how it would open things up for Rondo.

I am not saying that is was possible to get Deron Williams, and NJ came up with a pretty attractive package, but I really hope that Danny at least looked into the possibility.  To me Williams would have been a big upgrade for this year and going forward.  I also would have been interested in other PG's like Nash or Ellis, both of whom would seem to have been available on some level.  Nash would obviously be a short term solution but would be an equally effective distributor with a much more potent offensive game.  And since I think Rondo is one of the most overrated defensive players (and players) in the league, I don't know how much you lose there either.  Yes, he gets steals (but so did Iverson).  He is atrocious at keeping his man in front of him, and opposing point guards consistently get into the paint.  People say Perk's success was largely a product of his environment.  I would argue (as Chris Paul did) that Rondo's numbers/success is also directly attributable to playing with Paul, Ray, and KG.  I’m not saying he isn’t a good player, but he benefits from the talent around him, just as much as Perk did.

I guess I didn't intend to turn this into a 'bash Rondo' thread, but I feel like Danny was looking at the wrong starter to trade if he wanted to upgrade our offense without sacrificing our defense.  Should we go up against LA or SA in the Finals (god willing), I think we are going to wish we had Perk back.

I think DA would have kept Perk if they thought they could resign him for what they wanted and didn't need a another wing.  So if you take those into consideration the trade of Perk wasn't a big shock.  I posted in another tread the night before the trade deadline that he was the most likely traded.  I always fall back on DA knowing more than me about the roster when I have questions about a move. 

Also you are severely underrating Rondo's defense but, he does benefit from good talent around him with regards to his assist totals on some nights.  Rondo is probably one of the most unique players to ever play in the NBA so I can see where some people would have problems with parts of his game.  I think the combo of Rondo and KG are the most important pieces of the team so I'm pretty happy and excited about seeing the new players along with the big 4. 

I'm pretty much past the 'sadness' of losing Perkins.  : )