Danny Deserves the Benefit of the Doubt

[footey]

The idea that Green is a poor defender is nonsense. He is a product of a system that doesn't play any.

His feet are fine. He will flourish in Boston's defensive system.

That's a possibility, but Ibaka is not a poor defender, Sefolosha is not a poor defender,Westbrook is not a poor defender..and they're all in the same system.

Saying they don't play defense in that system doesn't make a ton of sense.

Totally disagree. There isn't a good on-ball defender on that team, and Scott Brooks doesn't teach it. At all. Out here, they're our local TV team and they simply are not a good defensive basketball team. OKC is a below average defensive team.

Westbrook could play Celtic defense if a coach demanded it. Don't like either one of the other two as players, on either end.

Brooks is a defensive coach. The Thunder played pretty good defense last season. Whatever happened they aren't playing at the same level this year. Seems teams have figured them out more and attacking more. Perk will only help against that.

Again, totally disagree. Brooks doesn't begin to touch the number of concepts and complexity the Celtics teach defensively. And they're not in the discussion about the great or adequate defensive teams in the NBA. It's a two-man system, and an offense-less center with bad wheels is going to have little or no impact on that at this point.

20th of 30 in points allowed, on the bad side of 100, isn't championship basketball, and with their youth and quickness, Green included, it's absolutely inexcusable.

Really surprised too, Roy, that you're skimming over the injury and financial issues that have significantly devalued Perkins.

If he were healthy and realistic in his salary demands, this trade probably doesn't get made. But he's neither. As far as I'm concerned, Perkins traded himself and Danny did a great job selling high - very high.

For what it's worth, Green has a career 12.9 PER. Perkins is at 12.9 as well. Perkins has a career .105 WS/48 while Green is at .068. Green's rebounding rate is 9.5 - Perkins' is 16.4.

I think Green is a marginally better player and he certainly fills a need. I just wish we had more healthy big men to make up for the loss of Perk.

My one disappointment is that it appears both guys from the trade, Krystic and Green, are weak rebounders.  To a team not known for having good rebounders.

[soap07]

There could be absolutely no stat on this earth more insignificant to this trade than PER.

Green is going to be asked to play minutes at the 3 and 4 for Pierce and Garnett. PER is absolutely, totally irrelevant and not even remotely adequate as a measure of how well he fills that role.

Why? I think it helps confirm some of the stuff written about an overvalued player that puts up higher numbers because he just plays more minutes. And why does it matter what position he'll play? Unless you're claiming that Green was playing out of position in OKC, which I don't think I've seen anyone related to the team say.

[hpantazo]

can we get Reggie Evans if he gets bought out? He would instantly cure our rebounding issues.

[Kane3387]

From everything I've read so far. The OKC fans are just happy to be rid of Green. Getting Perk back is just the plus. I just feel we could've and should've gotten more for Perk.

As of right now this trade is just horrible. But I fully expect Danny to pull something off that will make these moves start to make sense. So in that way I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

Let me say this. The NBA was an afterthought in OKC and Oklahoma in general until the Hornets came. Then ppl became semi interested but the team stunk and ppl lost interest in the NBA after they left. My point is that people were not into the NBA or basketball much down there. Didn't follow it and definitely didn't analyze it. Interest really took off last year, but the overall fanbase's knowledge is very raw.

People thought Green wasn't that good because he wasn't performing like Durant and Westbrook. People fail to realize that both those guys are ball stoppers for the most part (Westbrook gets a lot of Assists in transition) and that their offense is 1 on 1 iso with those two guys a lot or pick and pops with Serge and Nenad. Green rarely got plays called for him and because of lack of ball movement didn't get consistent quality looks.

Also they fail to acknowledge that he was playing out of position  without a quality defensive big man backing him up.

Those thunder fans don't understand the value Green is capable of bringing to the table.

[fairweatherfan]

And I listened all afternoon to OKC sports radio here. Their NBA team thinks Presti got pantsed here. They can't believe they have up one of their three young cornerstones for a bad-legged center who can't shoot.

Sounds like the mirror image of the Celtics fan reaction. I think everybody gets attached to their homegrown guys.

Slowly on board with the deal, but I'll wait til the buyout thing shakes out to decide for sure.  If we get Murphy or Pryzbilla this is probably a decent set of moves for us, and potentially an excellent one.

[CoachBo]

There could be absolutely no stat on this earth more insignificant to this trade than PER.

Green is going to be asked to play minutes at the 3 and 4 for Pierce and Garnett. PER is absolutely, totally irrelevant and not even remotely adequate as a measure of how well he fills that role.

PER is meaningless. It fails - in total - to measure intangible contributions.

I've said many times on this board, and I'll continue to say, that I never, ever did or ever will use any sabremetrics to measure the performance of any team I'm associated with.

They are statistics contrived to support a point, not make one. This game cannot be accurately evaluated by a set of numbers. Nor will it ever be able to be.

[CoachBo]

From everything I've read so far. The OKC fans are just happy to be rid of Green. Getting Perk back is just the plus. I just feel we could've and should've gotten more for Perk.

As of right now this trade is just horrible. But I fully expect Danny to pull something off that will make these moves start to make sense. So in that way I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

Let me say this. The NBA was an afterthought in OKC and Oklahoma in general until the Hornets came. Then ppl became semi interested but the team stunk and ppl lost interest in the NBA after they left. My point is that people were not into the NBA or basketball much down there. Didn't follow it and definitely didn't analyze it. Interest really took off last year, but the overall fanbase's knowledge is very raw.

People thought Green wasn't that good because he wasn't performing like Durant and Westbrook. People fail to realize that both those guys are ball stoppers for the most part (Westbrook gets a lot of Assists in transition) and that their offense is 1 on 1 iso with those two guys a lot or pick and pops with Serge and Nenad. Green rarely got plays called for him and because of lack of ball movement didn't get consistent quality looks.

Also they fail to acknowledge that he was playing out of position  without a quality defensive big man backing him up.

Those thunder fans don't understand the value Green is capable of bringing to the table.

Good analysis on all points. As I've been saying all night, Brooks runs a two-man system. You cannot accurately judge a thing about Green's potential in Boston by his performance in a system where he's an outsider.

[footey]

Perk looked a lot better than I expected when he came back and the past few games the team had hit a gear defensively that was good enough to win a title.

I felt this way initially, but then the more I saw him, even before he strained his left knee, the more I felt he was not close to being full strength. He looked really small versus the Lakers when we played them on our court. Bynum and Gasol (and even Odom) were going over him with ease on the boards.  Given the long period to recover and get full strength on an ACL surgery (right, Tony?) I just did not feel that Perk was going to be ready in time to be 100% against the Lakers.  His latest injury made a full recovery even less likely.

[soap07]

There could be absolutely no stat on this earth more insignificant to this trade than PER.

Green is going to be asked to play minutes at the 3 and 4 for Pierce and Garnett. PER is absolutely, totally irrelevant and not even remotely adequate as a measure of how well he fills that role.

PER is meaningless. It fails - in total - to measure intangible contributions.

I've said many times on this board, and I'll continue to say, that I never, ever did or ever will use any sabremetrics to measure the performance of any team I'm associated with.

They are statistics contrived to support a point, not make one. This game cannot be accurately evaluated by a set of numbers. Nor will it ever be able to be.

Aren't all statistics contrived to support a point? And measuring 'intangible contributions' usually only serve to keep guys like Brian Scalabrine in the league.

[footey]

There could be absolutely no stat on this earth more insignificant to this trade than PER.

Green is going to be asked to play minutes at the 3 and 4 for Pierce and Garnett. PER is absolutely, totally irrelevant and not even remotely adequate as a measure of how well he fills that role.

PER is meaningless. It fails - in total - to measure intangible contributions.

I've said many times on this board, and I'll continue to say, that I never, ever did or ever will use any sabremetrics to measure the performance of any team I'm associated with.

They are statistics contrived to support a point, not make one. This game cannot be accurately evaluated by a set of numbers. Nor will it ever be able to be.

Aren't all statistics contrived to support a point? And measuring 'intangible contributions' usually only serve to keep guys like Brian Scalabrine in the league.

Hey, did someone say Scal is available??

[Kane3387]

I agree too many panic fans who over value our own players.  Perk was our best defensive big man no doubt about it.   I think we will add some bodies.  I am willingly to see how the buy outs pan out for us.

KG is our best defensive big man. It's not even close. He is the only guy in the NBA that can guard 1-5.

As for Perk, he WAS great against Howard. Not so sure now... OKC plays Orlando TOMORROW, so we will see. All I know Perk gets killed by guys with post moves like Bogut and Kaman. Howard never had moves but he has a much better arsenal now and he gave it to Perk last game.

[soap07]

There could be absolutely no stat on this earth more insignificant to this trade than PER.

Green is going to be asked to play minutes at the 3 and 4 for Pierce and Garnett. PER is absolutely, totally irrelevant and not even remotely adequate as a measure of how well he fills that role.

PER is meaningless. It fails - in total - to measure intangible contributions.

I've said many times on this board, and I'll continue to say, that I never, ever did or ever will use any sabremetrics to measure the performance of any team I'm associated with.

They are statistics contrived to support a point, not make one. This game cannot be accurately evaluated by a set of numbers. Nor will it ever be able to be.

I'm also amused that you would devalue Perkins compared to Green considering those very same intangibles that PER doesn't measure are something that he's known for.

[hpantazo]

I agree, he has earned it. Did he ever make it onto WEEI today to talk about the moves?

From the RealGM forum:

Recap: Ainge said:

- Jeff Green is a terrific player. Celtics have targeted Green for a while.
- We like Krstic. He is a terrific shooter. He complements Rondo's game
- We offered Perkins all that we could offer him. He wanted to test the market. It was a concern.
- Feels trade makes the Celtics better now.
- Feels Shaq and JO will be healthy.
- Ainge was close to Perkins. He shed some tears today with Perkins.
- Trade was a very difficult trade to make.
- Ainge feels team will give Krstic and Green a chance. In time they will see the benefits of this trade.
- Feels Green can play the 3 and 4. He defends and passes well. Brings lenght to the team.
- Shaq has been excellent with the starters. Shaq is more suited as a starter.
- Shaq is a week away from playing.
- JO is getting ready.
- He will wait and see about the players that are going to be bought out. Then he will "pounce" on them. He has a few players in mind. He couldn't mention names right now.
- Would like to add another wing player.
- Would like to still shore up the front line.
- Would like to get another PG.
- Felt Semih was hurt this year and wasn't sure he could be counted on this year.
- Didn't feel Daniels would be able to play this season.

He's on now. Missed the beginning, but Danny:

Likes Green (Duh)

Expresses concern that they would not be able to sign Perk in offseason with new CBA. Perk wanted to test the market this time.

Says he was very close to Perk and they shed some tears today. Likes him going to OKC where he will have bright future. Both he and Doc agonized over the trade, but thought it best for the team. Says he think the team will see the benefits of the trade in time.

Second unit: Green can play 3/4, can shoot the 3, post, good passer, length, athletic, experienced but also is young.

It would have been tough to play all of Shaq, Perk, JO, etc. Says Shaq was excellent and better with the starters. Beat all the good teams with him. Says JO is coming along fantastically and Shaq will be back in week--- even before Perk would. Kristic is ready to go.

Shaq would have accepted his role, but better as a starter becasue of his age and takes a while to get loose.

Targeting free agents: Can't discuss, but ready to pounce. Johnson to 10 day-- skinny but long and talented and can play minutes in next few games. Roster spots are available and they will look for a shooter, wing (defense or offense), maybe shore up front line too. May fill all three spots or just two.

Other teams: Moves made with an eye to competition: Miami, Orlando, NY is strong now.

Semih: He's been hurt so not much help for the C's this year. Lokking for more experienced, healthier player.

Quis: Not sure of the prognosis, but looking like he would not play this year, so they wanted to pick up somebody and Green can be that guy. If Quis was healthy they still might have made a move with all the other injuries.

Likes Melo and Williams trades. Denver did well and NY got a special player. Utah was in same boat as Denver and needed to do something so as not to lose a player with nothing in return.

Rondo max contract? Yes, Rondo is more and more of a leader. Fun to play, great competitor. Top point guard.

The end.

thanks for the great recap Lucky, TP

[hpantazo]

I agree too many panic fans who over value our own players.  Perk was our best defensive big man no doubt about it.   I think we will add some bodies.  I am willingly to see how the buy outs pan out for us.

KG is our best defensive big man. It's not even close. He is the only guy in the NBA that can guard 1-5.

As for Perk, he WAS great against Howard. Not so sure now... OKC plays Orlando TOMORROW, so we will see. All I know Perk gets killed by guys with post moves like Bogut and Kaman. Howard never had moves but he has a much better arsenal now and he gave it to Perk last game.

I have to admit, Howard killed Perk in the last game against the Magic

[Kane3387]

People over here have a tendency to go to pieces whenever Danny moves one of his beloved draft picks.

You should have seen this place the night Danny traded for Ray Allen - or Kevin Garnett. I think we've seen pretty clearly by now exactly what that emotion was - hysteria.

Dwyer's article on Green is just way out in left field. There isn't a shred of that analysis I agree with.

And I listened all afternoon to OKC sports radio here. Their NBA team thinks Presti got pantsed here. They can't believe they have up one of their three young cornerstones for a bad-legged center who can't shoot.

Were you listening to WWLS the sports animal? IF so what was Trammels response? He's a Green fan but I called in once to talk to him about the Finals last year and he was high on Perk. Interested to hear what he and Al were saying. Im not in OK at the moment so I can't listen.