Danny Deserves the Benefit of the Doubt

[Atzar]

What does this have to do with anything? Is it your point then, with your eyes and experience, that any player who spends a whole career being one of the worst defenders on his team will definitely become a better defender/rebounder just because he's on the Celtics?

Defense and rebounding are very much based on focus and effort in those particular categories.  Athleticism, size, quickness, length and smarts all play a factor, yes, but they matter little when a player doesn't care to use them.

CoachBo's point is that Jeff Green clearly possesses the qualities that would allow him to be effective in these categories should he choose to put in the effort.  He also believes that the deficiencies shown by Green thus far are due to the system in which he plays.

That's why a guy like Ray can come in here and become a very solid defender, despite playing little defense previously in his career.  That's why a guy like Von Wafer can do the same thing.  That's why a guy like Kenyon Martin can 'inexplicably' experience a 50% increase in his rebound rate from one year to the next.

There's a place for the advanced statistics you seem to hold dear, but not everything can be quantified neatly onto a spreadsheet.  

Coach, I hope you don't mind me speaking for you, but I think I got your point right. 

[Eja117]

I kinda feel like the title of this thread should have been

"Who ya gonna believe? Danny Ainge or your own lying eyes?"

I never doubt Ainge.

Because he's a bastion of honesty?

[rondohondo]

I kinda feel like the title of this thread should have been

"Who ya gonna believe? Danny Ainge or your own lying eyes?"

I never doubt Ainge.

Because he's a bastion of honesty?

weren't you the guys that wanted to trade Tom Brady for draft picks after they lost to the jets in the playoffs this year?

So you would trade Tom Brady(the best player in the NFL) for Draft picks, but now you are upset because we traded a one way player(with a reconstructed knee) for a borderline all-star and a possible lottery pick?

 

[droponov]

Nice collection of declarative statements, sans evidence. I'm sure the people who are angry about this trade will buy them - if they believe that every game is a boilerplate, which is the one major flaw in your reasoning.

Sans evidence? Have you read this thread?

In the statements that have been made:

Jeff Green is not a good rebounder. Evidence: He has a career 9.5 rebound percentage, meaning he grabs 9.5% percent of available rebounds, this is not a very good rate. Perk, for example, a very good rebounder, is at 16 or so.

Jeff Green is not a very good defender. Evidence: He has a career 109 defensive rating, meaning that when he's on the floor, his team gives up 109 points per 100 possessions. That's not a "sabremetric" stat - that is a stat. On his own team this year, he is tied for second worst on the team.

Other evidence that has been posted and promptly/conveniently ignored by you: Perk - better PER and Win Shares/48. I can certainly understand not trusting sabremetrics...

But I have provided numerous pieces of evidence that Green is, indeed, a poor rebounder and defender.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary that you can provide? Other than your eyes and experience?

I harken back to that summer night in 2007 when the masses over here were livid because Ray Allen couldn't guard a chair.

Didn't turn out that way, did it?

What does this have to do with anything? Is it your point then, with your eyes and experience, that any player who spends a whole career being one of the worst defenders on his team will definitely become a better defender/rebounder just because he's on the Celtics?

Different systems, different teams, different players, different results. That's real basketball.

Um, yes? What? I don't understand what this even means. I thought real basketball consisted of playing a game.

No, not because he's on the Celtics but because he'll mostly be playing a different position. He becomes a slightly above average rebounder and a good defender at the 3 vs being atrocious in both counts at the 4.

[Celtics4ever]

He definitely has the athletic ability to be a defender.  A new team culture may help him to improve in that area.

He had a 38 " vertical and 7'1" wingspan.  So the physical tools are there.  Supposedly he gambles a lot on defense creating fouls.

[2short]

Maybe I'm missing something but I think danny just did a great job.  I'm a bit shocked we were able to get Green.  I will miss perk but I think he can be replaced (affordably) with guys off buyouts.  IF big if the Oneils are healthy we just added a player who can defend 2 or 3 posistions, young athletic and can help with carmelo, lebron and against chicago.  We got Krstic to replace Semih, pick and pops for 10 minutes a game, don't expect to see him in playoffs.   Danny created slots for buyouts, moved an expense Nate and padded the celtics future.  ie luke for early 2nd round pick, 1st round pick, cap space and if resigned jeff green to eventually take over for PP.  Green can also play backup pf which makes davis contract not as big an issue.
If we add murphy, a solid guard and another player the celtics went from having one of the best benches in nba to one of the best benches in nba with next year looking MUCH better.

[Bahku]

I agree, (TP) ... I think there's a bigger plan at work here, and we just need to be a little patient. Jeff Green will be sweet to have coming off the bench ... the East has suddenly become much smaller, and these moves make us stronger in that area ... Orlando, (the "biggest" East team, size-wise), is no longer our greatest threat, and teams that are stronger at the SG/SF position are ... this will help us, and Danny's not done with this project, IMHO.



(I wrote this in another thread, but it's just as pertinent here).

[get_banners]

I know people (including myself) are sad and angry about trading Perk, but as Bob Ryan pointed out in his column today, Jeff Green is the best player in this trade, by a bit. He was grossly misused in OKC (where the ball stops in the hands of Westbrook and Durant most of the time). I think the contract issue played a role, but I don't think it was quite as major. Fact is, we dominated this year without Perk. Assuming we get someone like Troy Murphy, I don't think we'll be in terrible shape inside. And...again, to reiterate...Green is not Anthony Parker. Danny thought he was a stud coming out of college - he was a poor fit in Georgetown's and OKC's systems. Dude can ball. Does trading Perk make us a bit weaker inside? Sure. That hurts us vs. Orlando and LA. But adding Green improves us a bit elsewhere.

[Eja117]

I kinda feel like the title of this thread should have been

"Who ya gonna believe? Danny Ainge or your own lying eyes?"

I never doubt Ainge.

Because he's a bastion of honesty?

weren't you the guys that wanted to trade Tom Brady for draft picks after they lost to the jets in the playoffs this year?

So you would trade Tom Brady(the best player in the NFL) for Draft picks, but now you are upset because we traded a one way player(with a reconstructed knee) for a borderline all-star and a possible lottery pick?

 

I said we should shop him.  I don't mind if Danny shopped Perk. Just not a fan of getting two backups and a future backup for him.

I was under this silly impression we were trying to win a championship here

[Kane3387]

I think after the buyouts are all said and done people will still fear the Celtics and think of us as the favorites to win it all.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I kinda feel like the title of this thread should have been

"Who ya gonna believe? Danny Ainge or your own lying eyes?"

I never doubt Ainge.

Because he's a bastion of honesty?

weren't you the guys that wanted to trade Tom Brady for draft picks after they lost to the jets in the playoffs this year?

So you would trade Tom Brady(the best player in the NFL) for Draft picks, but now you are upset because we traded a one way player(with a reconstructed knee) for a borderline all-star and a possible lottery pick?

 

I said we should shop him.  I don't mind if Danny shopped Perk. Just not a fan of getting two backups and a future backup for him.

I was under this silly impression we were trying to win a championship here

We got a starter and a backup first of all. Secondly, people here are always crying about how important a real 6th man is, we finally get one and it's seen as the end of the world. What gives? I think a lot of short sighted and narrow thinking is doing on right now.

[j804]

Yes lots of us want your head, Danny...

[GreenNote]

My only beef with Danny (and this may be one of his strengths) is that he is always afraid to spend a little more just to secure a player. I was upset when the let Posey walk, when Powe wasn't given a decent contract, when TA wasn't given the extra year. Every time these details seem minor but then you always look back and wish those players had been valued more and rewarded with the deals they wanted.

[Fan from VT]

As a side issue, can we get the "borderline all-star" tag placed in association with Jeff Green either removed or logically defended? At what point has he ever even come close to sniffing discussion for bordering on all-star? what does he do that is all-star worthy? Seems like he's a little worse than Luol Deng at everything he does.

[BballTim]

My only beef with Danny (and this may be one of his strengths) is that he is always afraid to spend a little more just to secure a player. I was upset when the let Posey walk, when Powe wasn't given a decent contract, when TA wasn't given the extra year. Every time these details seem minor but then you always look back and wish those players had been valued more and rewarded with the deals they wanted.

  First of all, it's not Danny's money and he has a budget to work with. Secondly, Posey isn't worth the money any more, just as Danny expected. The Powe decision seemed to be correct as well.