Author Topic: Time to trade Brady?  (Read 90458 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #255 on: January 19, 2011, 04:04:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Quote
I'm not sure if you're ranting at me or if you're simply upset that the word crapshoot doesn't have a precise and specific likelihood attached to it. Yes, trading or not trading Brady both carry risks. You have to pick which one increases your likelihood to contend, assuming that's your goal.

The dictionary definition is actually irrelevant. All that matters is our intent in utilizing the term. I defined the term "crapshoot" as I was using it, and you agreed that that made sense (ie a result having no reasonable expectation of happening). To me having NO reasonable expectation makes it highly unlikely.

  I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

I asked you to define how you were using it because it started to be unclear, and at first you said "close to 50/50." When that didn't seem to work with the positions you were applying it to, you moved the goal posts to "anything below 50/50." So you were operating with some idea of what "crapshoot" meant the whole time...It just changed.

  I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

The negative connotation comes from saying you shouldn't do something because it is a crapshoot. That is imbuing that course of action with a negative connotation as you are trying to dissuade someone from going down that path.

  But you keep saying that whether you do something or not it's still a crapshoot. It's not the case that every move or non-move is negative, so the term isn't really negative.

Anyway, if you think keeping Brady as our quaterback is a crapshoot then let's leave it at that. Having Brady quarterback the team is a crapshoot. I guess we have no reasonable expectation of contending.

  Again, I think you're more angry at the word for it's vague definition than my use of it. You can't say for sure you'll contend with Brady on the roster next year. He could be injured, other players could be injured, he could get suspended or arrested or suddenly retire in November. Some of those are more likely than others, but the odds of none of them happening is probably higher than the odds the team will contend without Brady.

  What you're saying is basically there's a chance the Pats will lose with Brady and there's a chance the Pats will lose without him so it doesn't matter if he's on the team. What you're missing is that the odds the Pats will lose without Brady is a lot higher than the odds that they'll lose with him.

Quote
 I'm not misrepresenting your position. Your position is that trading Brady for a couple of players and a draft pick or two that would hopefully bring in a suitable replacement for Brady is not an outrageous idea. I disagree, and I was doing so by explaining that no team would trade away a franchise qb with such a nebulous plan to replace him.

The misrepresentation once again lies in the details. My position is that I don't think trading Brady is AS outrageous an idea as you do. Little word, but it does change the meaning.
[/quote]

  What the little word does is muddy the meaning of that statement. Do you mean that it's much less outrageous an idea than I think it is or outrageous but slightly less outrageous  than I think? Trying to guess your meaning is a crapshoot. I think this was at least slightly clearer: "So the idea of trading Brady isn't all that outrageous." So, ok, my characterization of your statement was a slight mischaracterization but not all that much of one.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #256 on: January 19, 2011, 04:07:44 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.

  That's only true if keeping Shaq would have prevented them from contending at this point in time.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #257 on: January 19, 2011, 04:08:17 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #258 on: January 19, 2011, 04:09:12 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.

  That's only true if keeping Shaq would have prevented them from contending at this point in time.
Not only that but its only true if they could somehow forsee that they'd be able to flip Butler and picks into another all-star PF.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #259 on: January 19, 2011, 04:31:54 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255

Quote
  I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

These are your words are they not?

Quote
Not only did you bring up the word crapshoot in the discussion, but you gave it a reasonable definition when you did.

The definition I gave was something that has "no reasonable expectation" of happening. You said that this definition was "reasonable."

Quote
  I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

That seems like moving goal posts to me because it completely changed the implications of using the term in the discussion.

and again, you said you found my definition "reasonable." but that ultimately does not appear to be the case because I think we both would agree that the Pats have a reasonable expectation of contending with Brady and thus according to how I was using the term "not" a crapshoot...

Quote
What the little word does is muddy the meaning of that statement. Do you mean that it's much less outrageous an idea than I think it is or outrageous but slightly less outrageous  than I think? Trying to guess your meaning is a crapshoot. I think this was at least slightly clearer: "So the idea of trading Brady isn't all that outrageous." So, ok, my characterization of your statement was a slight mischaracterization but not all that much of one.

Well I wouldn't trade Brady and have said as much. The level of outrageousness would depend entirely on what the trade and plan to replace him consisted of...




Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #260 on: January 19, 2011, 04:37:32 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Tell that to Danny who used Theo's contract to get KG.

Plus, the Pats have been one and done the last two years as well...

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #261 on: January 19, 2011, 04:57:50 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123

Quote
  I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

These are your words are they not?

Quote
Not only did you bring up the word crapshoot in the discussion, but you gave it a reasonable definition when you did.

The definition I gave was something that has "no reasonable expectation" of happening. You said that this definition was "reasonable."

Quote
  I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

That seems like moving goal posts to me because it completely changed the implications of using the term in the discussion.

and again, you said you found my definition "reasonable." but that ultimately does not appear to be the case because I think we both would agree that the Pats have a reasonable expectation of contending with Brady and thus according to how I was using the term "not" a crapshoot...


  Here's a problem that you're not seeing: Your original definition was "having no real expectations" which is a reasonable definition. You later said:

 "The reasonable definition for "crapshoot" IMO is in the "highly unlikely" neighborhood."

  This is completely different than your original definition, because "no real expectations" means you don't have any idea whether something will happen or not while "highly unlikely" means that you *do* have a good idea whether something will happen or not. You're now amending "having no real expectations" to "no reasonable expectation" of happening. Again, qualifying the meaning changes it.

  Moral of the story: you can't use a vague term multiple times in a long discussion and then try to give it a specific meaning that will retroactively fit all of it's uses in the conversation. You're accusing me of moving goalposts that were never there to begin with.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #262 on: January 19, 2011, 04:59:59 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Tell that to Danny who used Theo's contract to get KG.

Plus, the Pats have been one and done the last two years as well...

  Trading for Theo's contract and using it in a trade is a little more straightforward than trading Shaq for Butler and trading Butler for Kwame a year or so later and eventually trading Kwame for Gasol.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #263 on: January 19, 2011, 05:08:57 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255

Quote
  I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

These are your words are they not?

Quote
Not only did you bring up the word crapshoot in the discussion, but you gave it a reasonable definition when you did.

The definition I gave was something that has "no reasonable expectation" of happening. You said that this definition was "reasonable."

Quote
  I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

That seems like moving goal posts to me because it completely changed the implications of using the term in the discussion.

and again, you said you found my definition "reasonable." but that ultimately does not appear to be the case because I think we both would agree that the Pats have a reasonable expectation of contending with Brady and thus according to how I was using the term "not" a crapshoot...


  Here's a problem that you're not seeing: Your original definition was "having no real expectations" which is a reasonable definition. You later said:

 "The reasonable definition for "crapshoot" IMO is in the "highly unlikely" neighborhood."

  This is completely different than your original definition, because "no real expectations" means you don't have any idea whether something will happen or not while "highly unlikely" means that you *do* have a good idea whether something will happen or not. You're now amending "having no real expectations" to "no reasonable expectation" of happening. Again, qualifying the meaning changes it.

  Moral of the story: you can't use a vague term multiple times in a long discussion and then try to give it a specific meaning that will retroactively fit all of it's uses in the conversation. You're accusing me of moving goalposts that were never there to begin with.

Well not retroactively. I asked that we clarify this during the discussion to hopefully avoid this.

I'm not sure I see the difference in "no real expectations" and "no reasonable expectation" although I didn't intend to change those words.

I mean would you say that the Pats have no real expectations of contending next season with Brady as the quarterback?

as for the goal posts moving, they moved as we were stating how we were using the term "crapshoot"

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #264 on: January 19, 2011, 05:11:38 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Tell that to Danny who used Theo's contract to get KG.

Plus, the Pats have been one and done the last two years as well...

  Trading for Theo's contract and using it in a trade is a little more straightforward than trading Shaq for Butler and trading Butler for Kwame a year or so later and eventually trading Kwame for Gasol.

Well we traded the rights to Roy to get Theo's contract....so I'd say pretty similar.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #265 on: January 19, 2011, 05:17:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123

Quote
  I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

These are your words are they not?

Quote
Not only did you bring up the word crapshoot in the discussion, but you gave it a reasonable definition when you did.

The definition I gave was something that has "no reasonable expectation" of happening. You said that this definition was "reasonable."

Quote
  I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

That seems like moving goal posts to me because it completely changed the implications of using the term in the discussion.

and again, you said you found my definition "reasonable." but that ultimately does not appear to be the case because I think we both would agree that the Pats have a reasonable expectation of contending with Brady and thus according to how I was using the term "not" a crapshoot...


  Here's a problem that you're not seeing: Your original definition was "having no real expectations" which is a reasonable definition. You later said:

 "The reasonable definition for "crapshoot" IMO is in the "highly unlikely" neighborhood."

  This is completely different than your original definition, because "no real expectations" means you don't have any idea whether something will happen or not while "highly unlikely" means that you *do* have a good idea whether something will happen or not. You're now amending "having no real expectations" to "no reasonable expectation" of happening. Again, qualifying the meaning changes it.

  Moral of the story: you can't use a vague term multiple times in a long discussion and then try to give it a specific meaning that will retroactively fit all of it's uses in the conversation. You're accusing me of moving goalposts that were never there to begin with.

Well not retroactively. I asked that we clarify this during the discussion to hopefully avoid this.

I'm not sure I see the difference in "no real expectations" and "no reasonable expectation" although I didn't intend to change those words.

I mean would you say that the Pats have no real expectations of contending next season with Brady as the quarterback?

as for the goal posts moving, they moved as we were stating how we were using the term "crapshoot"

  Sorry, I was copying your text.

  "no real expectations"

  was your original definition, which means you don't know one way or the other what the outcome will be.

  "no reasonable expectation" of happening

  was one of your later definitions. No reasonable expectation of happening means it's more likely to not happen than to happen. If an event has two possible outcomes and there's no reasonable expectation that one of those outcomes will occur it doesn't seem like a crapshoot.

  

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #266 on: January 19, 2011, 05:21:08 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Tell that to Danny who used Theo's contract to get KG.

Plus, the Pats have been one and done the last two years as well...

  Trading for Theo's contract and using it in a trade is a little more straightforward than trading Shaq for Butler and trading Butler for Kwame a year or so later and eventually trading Kwame for Gasol.

Well we traded the rights to Roy to get Theo's contract....so I'd say pretty similar.

  No, it's not the same. We traded Roy's rights to get an asset that we traded for KG. LA didn't trade Shaq for an asset that they traded for Gasol. There was an intermediate trade a year later.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #267 on: January 19, 2011, 06:57:20 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255

Quote
 I  didn't agree that your definition made sense, I just pointed out that you brought up the term when you were complaining about it's use. The dictionary definition is relevant  because that's pretty close to the definition I use.

These are your words are they not?

Quote
Not only did you bring up the word crapshoot in the discussion, but you gave it a reasonable definition when you did.

The definition I gave was something that has "no reasonable expectation" of happening. You said that this definition was "reasonable."

Quote
 I didn't move the goalposts. I clarified what I meant when it started to seem that you didn't understand what the term means. Saying that something that's 50-50 is a crapshoot doesn't mean or imply that doing something with a 25% chance of working *isn't* a crapshoot. Also, I was using terms like highly unlikely which most people wouldn't take to mean 50-50.

That seems like moving goal posts to me because it completely changed the implications of using the term in the discussion.

and again, you said you found my definition "reasonable." but that ultimately does not appear to be the case because I think we both would agree that the Pats have a reasonable expectation of contending with Brady and thus according to how I was using the term "not" a crapshoot...


  Here's a problem that you're not seeing: Your original definition was "having no real expectations" which is a reasonable definition. You later said:

 "The reasonable definition for "crapshoot" IMO is in the "highly unlikely" neighborhood."

  This is completely different than your original definition, because "no real expectations" means you don't have any idea whether something will happen or not while "highly unlikely" means that you *do* have a good idea whether something will happen or not. You're now amending "having no real expectations" to "no reasonable expectation" of happening. Again, qualifying the meaning changes it.

  Moral of the story: you can't use a vague term multiple times in a long discussion and then try to give it a specific meaning that will retroactively fit all of it's uses in the conversation. You're accusing me of moving goalposts that were never there to begin with.

Well not retroactively. I asked that we clarify this during the discussion to hopefully avoid this.

I'm not sure I see the difference in "no real expectations" and "no reasonable expectation" although I didn't intend to change those words.

I mean would you say that the Pats have no real expectations of contending next season with Brady as the quarterback?

as for the goal posts moving, they moved as we were stating how we were using the term "crapshoot"

  Sorry, I was copying your text.

  "no real expectations"

  was your original definition, which means you don't know one way or the other what the outcome will be.

  "no reasonable expectation" of happening

  was one of your later definitions. No reasonable expectation of happening means it's more likely to not happen than to happen. If an event has two possible outcomes and there's no reasonable expectation that one of those outcomes will occur it doesn't seem like a crapshoot.

  

I don't agree with your assessments. In fact, I would actually say having no real expectations is even more risky a gamble than having no reasonable expectations.

I mean the real expectations for the Pats being contenders with Brady is them being just that over his time as our starting QB.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 07:02:46 PM by winsomme »

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #268 on: January 19, 2011, 07:00:24 PM »

Offline winsomme

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6058
  • Tommy Points: 255
Didn't the Lakers trade Shaq in his prime?

But not in the hope of improving their team.  They traded him due to personality issues.

Well they certainly extended their window...
No it didn't, it cost them two possibley three contending teams. They didn't contend again until they traded for Pau Gasol giving up only late round picks and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.

Well they made the playoffs in all but the year Kobe was injured and if you trace Kwame back it leads to the Shaq trade.

They've actually won two more Titles and been there three times. I think it's hard to call the trade costly.
They were beaten in the first round the two years they made the playoffs and the trades weren't related.

Future success due to a separate trade doesn't reflect on whether or not it was a good basketball move. Especially given that the Lakers had just made the Finals.

Tell that to Danny who used Theo's contract to get KG.

Plus, the Pats have been one and done the last two years as well...

  Trading for Theo's contract and using it in a trade is a little more straightforward than trading Shaq for Butler and trading Butler for Kwame a year or so later and eventually trading Kwame for Gasol.

Well we traded the rights to Roy to get Theo's contract....so I'd say pretty similar.

  No, it's not the same. We traded Roy's rights to get an asset that we traded for KG. LA didn't trade Shaq for an asset that they traded for Gasol. There was an intermediate trade a year later.

The asset was Butler. They also got Odom who has been a key part of their success.

Re: Time to trade Brady?
« Reply #269 on: January 19, 2011, 07:09:09 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
The asset was Butler. They also got Odom who has been a key part of their success.
Who was traded for Brown, who was traded along with 3 or 4 other picks.

Years and separated by a different trade, you're drawing a straight line connection where there is none. Plus you're ignoring three years of being a crappy basketball team.