How flexible should the rotation be?

[Roy H.]

There's no question that the Celtics have a lot of depth, which inevitably leads to a lot of talented guys who get less minutes than they might normally expect.  Lately, there have been a lot of topics talking about getting more minutes for Player X, and less for Player Y, etc.

My question:  how stable should Doc be with his rotations?  There seem to be two main theories here.  The first is one that was labeled "Darwinism" by IndeedProceed -- basically, survival of the fittest.  In this theory, the rotation stays flexible, and the coach rides the "hot hand".  Guys who earn minutes keep them, and players who underperform -- whether it's through limited production or through lack of hard work -- sit on the bench.

The second theory is that guys need to play together extensively to build chemistry and cohesion.  Proponents of this theory think that the coach should stick with those guys who have proven themselves in the past, and let them work through their struggles.  It's basically a "pick a rotation and stick with it, unless something drastic happens" theory.  Players need to know their role and have a comfort level, according to this theory.

My thought:  I don't like a lot of shuffling in and out of the starting lineup.  With our team, I think it makes sense to play the same starters roughly equal minutes every night.  Guys like Ray, Pierce, etc., have earned the right to work themselves out of a slump.   

With the bench, I think it's trickier.  I think the coach needs to be more flexible here.  I think Doc needs to tell the guys that the 10 non-starters are all completely interchangeable, and that it shouldn't be an ego thing.  Easier said than done, I know.  Still, if a guy like BBD is playing out of control, Doc should be willing to sit him for a bit and play JO or Harangody instead.  Similarly, with Nate, if he isn't effective, he should lose minutes to Wafer or Marquis.  The job of the coach is to keep guys motivated -- rather than brooding -- so that when the player who saw their minutes reduced is called upon, they're confident enough to produce.

[Edgar]

Starters are starters for a reason
They are overall more effective than the rest or compliment
the other 3 or 4 guys better.
To make a solid "team"
After that is all up to matchups
If its true one players in control or discontrol can hurt
thats always more obvious in offense than in deffense.
So I think with the bench the matchups are more important.
You win a game exploding those matchups, the thinner your diversity is , the less chance to face aversities youre.

So play matchups with the bench and exlode other teams weakness
with a solid deep rotation you can do it. And thats all that we cannot do right now, moreso, other teams are doing that with us.

[Fafnir]

Well assuming KG comes back and is perfectly fine, hear are my thoughts.

I like what Doc does with the starting line up, he tries to play them as many mintues together as a whole as possible. He's done it the last few years with Rondo/Ray/Paul/Kevin/Perk and has done the same with Shaq subing for Perk. Our starting 5 plays as a unit one of the highest minute totals in the league. Doc has done this for the past three years consistently when we've had everyone healthy.

Those two units already have chemistry at this point, and maximizing it is key. Doc was using BBD to close out games for Shaq earlier and with Shaq's apparent decline (and overall poor mobility) lately I can't argue with that. Though if Perkins comes back I think he'll be taking that role back from BBD.

Wthe bench minutes and lineups aren't important to keep consistent, but the roles of players needs to be kept somewhat constant. Whether its wing player, ball handler, paint defender, etc... Minutes will always come and go when you have a starter ahead of you. I think Doc has sometimes been guilty of mixing this up, especially with the four and five man bench units. (back when we had 10 rotation guys....)

I'm also a big fan of Doc using Jermaine exclusively as a C. Against most 4s I'd be worried about him with what I've seen from him physically this year. But his shot blocking and defense have been huge from the bench. He's going to pick up a lot of cheap fouls because he's grabbing and holding a lot when fighting for rebounding position. Hopefully he can get away from having to do that so much.

[wdleehi]

You have to play your rotation when you can while trying to find spot minutes for the other key players so they are ready to step in and contribute if injuries happen.  


That's why a player like Scali as the 15th man was good.  He didn't need a lot of play time to be ready to step on and give 10-15 minutes of solid defense.



I am for keeping the starters minutes down in the regular season while keeping the main role players at the minutes they would play in the playoffs.  The extra time (and garbage time) would be for the deep bench players.


I would also send those youngins down to the d-league when the numbers allow it to keep them in game situations.

[Brendan]

Well its not interchangeable - Playing Shaq and JO, Shaq and Perk, or Perk and JO, is probably not advisable against most front courts (LAL being the one opponent where I can see a Perk / JO front court working well.)

I'll assume everyone is healthy in that case we have a depth chart that looks like (putting everyone where they are most likely to play and their most natural position at this point):

Shaq / JO / Perk / Semi
KG / BBD / Luke
Pierce / Daniels
Allen / West / Wafer
Rondo / Nate / AB

I don't think Semi, Luke, or AB have done anything to take minutes from the above guys. I see a three man battle between Wafer, Daniels, and Nate.

Shaq / JO / Perk
KG / BBD
Pierce / Daniels
Allen / West / Wafer
Rondo / Nate

Plus some competition between JO / Shaq / Perk. I think all three centers need reps, with the age and injury issues there, plus the chance you'd need to go three deep with fouls, C's need to put any of the three in the game and be ready to go.

Daniels, Wafer, and Nate can all see minutes based on situations with starters and match ups, so I think any of those three needs enough burn to get going. I'm wondering if they'll rotate centers, giving all three extra days off and games where they start, so all three are ready. With the wings I think it should be based on who they are playing first and then who is playing well in a game.

[Bankshot]

Well assuming KG comes back and is perfectly fine, hear are my thoughts.

I like what Doc does with the starting line up, he tries to play them as many mintues together as a whole as possible. He's done it the last few years with Rondo/Ray/Paul/Kevin/Perk and has done the same with Shaq subing for Perk. Our starting 5 plays as a unit one of the highest minute totals in the league. Doc has done this for the past three years consistently when we've had everyone healthy.

Those two units already have chemistry at this point, and maximizing it is key. Doc was using BBD to close out games for Shaq earlier and with Shaq's apparent decline (and overall poor mobility) lately I can't argue with that. Though if Perkins comes back I think he'll be taking that role back from BBD.

Wthe bench minutes and lineups aren't important to keep consistent, but the roles of players needs to be kept somewhat constant. Whether its wing player, ball handler, paint defender, etc... Minutes will always come and go when you have a starter ahead of you. I think Doc has sometimes been guilty of mixing this up, especially with the four and five man bench units. (back when we had 10 rotation guys....)

I'm also a big fan of Doc using Jermaine exclusively as a C. Against most 4s I'd be worried about him with what I've seen from him physically this year. But his shot blocking and defense have been huge from the bench. He's going to pick up a lot of cheap fouls because he's grabbing and holding a lot when fighting for rebounding position. Hopefully he can get away from having to do that so much.

But didn't Baby close a lot of games even when Perk was healthy?

[mgent]

I don't think we really have to worry about sticking with the rotation until about March.  Until then Perk probably won't be getting many minutes anyway so we should be able to make 3 centers work.

Besides the C position, the only real struggle for minutes will be between Wafer and Daniels at SF.  Neither is an ideal SF, but Daniels will probably win due to his length.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if Wafer's shot started falling and he won the minutes due to his spacing and added offense.

[Fafnir]

Well assuming KG comes back and is perfectly fine, hear are my thoughts.

I like what Doc does with the starting line up, he tries to play them as many mintues together as a whole as possible. He's done it the last few years with Rondo/Ray/Paul/Kevin/Perk and has done the same with Shaq subing for Perk. Our starting 5 plays as a unit one of the highest minute totals in the league. Doc has done this for the past three years consistently when we've had everyone healthy.

Those two units already have chemistry at this point, and maximizing it is key. Doc was using BBD to close out games for Shaq earlier and with Shaq's apparent decline (and overall poor mobility) lately I can't argue with that. Though if Perkins comes back I think he'll be taking that role back from BBD.

Wthe bench minutes and lineups aren't important to keep consistent, but the roles of players needs to be kept somewhat constant. Whether its wing player, ball handler, paint defender, etc... Minutes will always come and go when you have a starter ahead of you. I think Doc has sometimes been guilty of mixing this up, especially with the four and five man bench units. (back when we had 10 rotation guys....)

I'm also a big fan of Doc using Jermaine exclusively as a C. Against most 4s I'd be worried about him with what I've seen from him physically this year. But his shot blocking and defense have been huge from the bench. He's going to pick up a lot of cheap fouls because he's grabbing and holding a lot when fighting for rebounding position. Hopefully he can get away from having to do that so much.

But didn't Baby close a lot of games even when Perk was healthy?

No, he didn't. I looked through popcorn game machine and I couldn't find any times that he did. I found a few games where Sheed did though. Mostly early in the year.

[housecall]

I know this thread is not intended to complain about how Doc coachs'the team but your last paragragh hit close to home with me.The exact things you are saying are some of the things ive felt Doc hasn't been at his best.This isn't something that just started this season but a spill over from last season.  

[Q_FBE]

With the amount of injuries this team has experienced, I would say Doc has been flexible and will continue to be flexible. The schedule right now is densely packed with home games with lesser opponents (SA notwithstanding) so winning these is a top priority. The Celtics are developing Harongody, Jermaine, Von Wafer, and Avery Bradley which was forced by manpower availability but can also pay bigger dividends down the road. I expected PP and RA to be in the 40s last night but was pleasently surprised by scanning the box score that they were at 39 and 33 minutes respectively and the bench still runs 10 deep with KG, Perkins, Avery Bradley, Semih Burden, and Delonte West on the shelf or DNPCD.

Once KG, Perkins, Semih and Delonte come back, does Danny Ainge dare think about a bold move at the February deadline to get something for Perkins and BBD (I have my doubts if we will keep either - both want too much money) by trading them to WC Laker rival to nip the Lakers in the Butt.

I think Jermaine O'Neal could really give us something and GASP make Perkins tradeable.