Greatest power forwards of all time

[CelticG1]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

[BballTim]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

[Fafnir]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

That's completely unfair, KG couldn't run or move at all on his leg. The team begged him to get surgery sooner, KG wanted to try and play.

Talk up McHale for his toughness, don't tear KG down because you want to "win" an argument about their respective merits.

[Finkelskyhook]

That's a load of crap, KG couldn't run or move at all on his leg. The team begged him to get surgery sooner, KG wanted to try and play.

Talk up McHale for his toughness, don't tear KG down because you want to "win" an argument about their respective merits.  

I am absolutely with you here, Fafnir.  Both of these great players are warriors.  Watching Garnett battle last year through his injury actually reminded me of McHale.

[jarufu]

I've always liked the fact that Karl Malone kept a knee raised when attacking the basket to make sure whoever was in front of him knew about it .. that's just something you don't see any more!!

[CelticG1]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

Not really my point. Well I guess a little bit of my point because it's hard to compare these guys accurately since they played in different 25 30 years apart. I'm pretty sure if McHale was playing these days he wouldn't have played during those playoffs, because our organization, which I'm sure they did with KG, wouldn't have let him. I think fans our brighter these days too. Back then were people really thinking of the ramifications? Players played through all sorts of injuries probably to a fault.

If we are comparing them than how many years are we comparing? 5 years, 10 years? Are we comparing who we would rather have in 1 seven game series? Are we comparing who we would rather have for their entire career? Who had better skills? Who was more athletic?

[BballTim]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

That's a load of crap, KG couldn't run or move at all on his leg. The team begged him to get surgery sooner, KG wanted to try and play.

Talk up McHale for his toughness, don't tear KG down because you want to "win" an argument about their respective merits.

  It's a load of crap because you say so, because you're able to tell people here exactly how painful KG's knee was compared to McHale's stress fractures? You're somehow an expert on how McHale's pain threshold compares to KG's? Please let us know exactly how you acquired this information.

  And I'm not tearing down KG, by the way. McHale was never close to the same player after he played that season. Sitting out would have been a much better move. The point I was discussing was that KG is still a great defender at the age of 34, but the reason McHale wasn't was health issues, not because of KG's superiority.

[Fafnir]

I think both KG/McHale ended up hurting their organizaitons futures by not taking care of themselves. If KG got his surgery right away, then maybe he's healthier during the Finals run last year. McHale could have had a much longer peak potentially, and perhaps the C's would have stayed contenders for a longer period.

Both tried to play, I can't fault them for that. But man oh man did I think about it a lot after game 7.....

[Finkelskyhook]

I've always liked the fact that Karl Malone kept a knee raised when attacking the basket to make sure whoever was in front of him knew about it .. that's just something you don't see any more!!

The messiah does it.  The difference is there isn't too many people who will bother to guard the messiah when he gets close to the rim because they want to stay in the game.  Malone occasionally got called on that move.  Defenders know that if the messiah drives to the basket they're going to get called no matter what.

My favorite move by Malone was the one he used on Isiah Thomas.

[Fafnir]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

That's a load of crap, KG couldn't run or move at all on his leg. The team begged him to get surgery sooner, KG wanted to try and play.

Talk up McHale for his toughness, don't tear KG down because you want to "win" an argument about their respective merits.

  It's a load of crap because you say so, because you're able to tell people here exactly how painful KG's knee was compared to McHale's stress fractures? You're somehow an expert on how McHale's pain threshold compares to KG's? Please let us know exactly how you acquired this information.

  And I'm not tearing down KG, by the way. McHale was never close to the same player after he played that season. Sitting out would have been a much better move. The point I was discussing was that KG is still a great defender at the age of 34, but the reason McHale wasn't was health issues, not because of KG's superiority.

I apologize for the "load of crap", I edited it to "completely unfair' after rereading it.

It still is completley unfair, and your attack on my lack of personal knowledge of their injuries severities doesn't change that. You also lack any knowledge of it yourself to make any sort of judgement on whether or not he could play. So honestly your attack on me rings false, since its entirely inconsistent with your own speculation as to if KG could have played. So once again I'm not sure why you threw that out there, other than to tear KG down and "win".

If you were just trying to point out that McHale sacrificed for the team, why say somehting like "maybe the C's win if Garnett would have played".

Considering that KG deliberately held off any surgery to try and play suggets that he was doing everything he could to be on the court. I'll also add that we saw KG try and play on it, and it wasn't pretty during his brief comeback.

[BballTim]

I've always thought blocked shots were overrated.  Be it McHale, Garnett or anybody else.

Darko is going to break Garnett's Twolves blocked shot record this year.  I don't think anybody would put Darko in the category of great defenders.

For impact on both ends of the floor, IMHO, Garnett, McHale, and Duncan are tied.

A 3-way tie?!?!?! No fun!

All right.  In order of titles

Duncan
McHale
Garnett

I'm 25 so I admit I only saw McHale on the tail end of his career but was he really known as a "quarterback" of the defense? When I think of KG I think of defense first. When I think of McHale I think of post moves first. I just always pictured Garnett as really elevating the entire teams defense and having a bigger overall impact in that sense where I picture McHale as more of a shutdown guy. Am I wrong or somewhere in between?

You're probably pretty close in your analysis.  
McHale was equally competent on both ends.  He guarded 1s, 2s, and 3s. McHale was an excellent help defender.  Unlike Garnett, McHale didn't have to quarterback the defense because he had Parish. McHale covered for Bird defensively....Was the receipient of Bird's genius on the other end.  McHale, in addition to being an underrated passer, had plenty of genius on his own offensively.  

The closest thing that Garnett has had to Parish is Perk.  Perk is solid...But not in Parish's league defensively.   Having Parish as an anchor allowed McHale to focus on shutting down his man.  Garnett has never had the freedom to do that in his career.  Defensive quarterback fits Garnett much better.  

Defensively...IMHO, equal but different.

Offensively, with the exception of passing, where IMHO, they are equal, McHale was better in virtually every area.

It's really impossible to accurately compare a lot of this though. How many seasons did McHale play at this high a level? What if McHale was on a dud team? KG is still dominant defensively and is being considered a possible DPOY and he is 34 and is in his 15th year of his career. Imagine KG on this team 10 years ago.... Our defense would be that much better (hard to imagine) and hed probably win DPOY every year.

  Now you're bringing health later in their careers into the argument. Clearly KG's had more healthy years than McHale, who sacrificed his health to rty and win titles for the Celts. Maybe if we'd had McHale 2 years ago we'd have won a title because he'd have played through the injury while KG didn't.

That's a load of crap, KG couldn't run or move at all on his leg. The team begged him to get surgery sooner, KG wanted to try and play.

Talk up McHale for his toughness, don't tear KG down because you want to "win" an argument about their respective merits.

  It's a load of crap because you say so, because you're able to tell people here exactly how painful KG's knee was compared to McHale's stress fractures? You're somehow an expert on how McHale's pain threshold compares to KG's? Please let us know exactly how you acquired this information.

  And I'm not tearing down KG, by the way. McHale was never close to the same player after he played that season. Sitting out would have been a much better move. The point I was discussing was that KG is still a great defender at the age of 34, but the reason McHale wasn't was health issues, not because of KG's superiority.

I apologize for the "load of crap", I edited it to "completely unfair' after rereading it.

It still is completley unfair, and your attack on my lack of personal knowledge of their injuries severities doesn't change that. You also lack any knowledge of it yourself to make any sort of judgement on whether or not he could play. So honestly your attack on me rings false, since its entirely inconsistent with your own speculation as to if KG could have played. So once again I'm not sure why you threw that out there, other than to tear KG down and "win".

Considering that KG deliberately held off any surgery to try and play suggets that he was doing everything he could to be on the court. I'll also add that we saw KG try and play on it, and it wasn't pretty during his brief comeback.

  Again, I wasn't saying "McHale was much tougher than KG and he wouldn't have let that knee slow him down". I said "maybe", which IMO is at least as accurate as "definitely not". With, of course, the obvious caveat that we'd have been in a worse position to win last year and this (and next) year.

[Boris Badenov]

How many championships would the 1980s C's have one with Garnett in his prime vs. McHale in his prime?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Garnett version would have won more. The rest of the C's easily had enough offensive firepower to make up for McHale's absence, the defense would have been better, and their intensity and will to win would have been much, much higher.

Their intensity and will to win would have been higher?  Are you kidding, Boris?  Did you watch Bird play?  Bird's intensity and will to win is pretty much unsurpassed in any era. You could make a case that we'd have won as many titles in that era.  But not more.  This was Bird's team.  Parish's defense.  Garnett would have been a great role player ala McHale.  The only time Garnett would have led those Celtics is when Bird was injured.

Since Bird was less demonstrative there might be a perception by people who didn't watch him much that he wasn't as intense.  Bird didn't headbutt any stantions or pound his chest.  He didn't have to.

I was around then - I grew up with that 1980s team. I was comparing KG's drive to McHale's, not to Bird's. That would be silly.

But if you're saying that a team's competitiveness depends only on the competitiveness of its best player and not on the will to win of anyone else, well, then I disagree.

And I also think that of that starting five, McHale was the least tenacious. When Bird called his teammates sissies, we all knew who he meant. (Luckily, so did McHale!).

[Finkelskyhook]

How many championships would the 1980s C's have one with Garnett in his prime vs. McHale in his prime?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the Garnett version would have won more. The rest of the C's easily had enough offensive firepower to make up for McHale's absence, the defense would have been better, and their intensity and will to win would have been much, much higher.

Their intensity and will to win would have been higher?  Are you kidding, Boris?  Did you watch Bird play?  Bird's intensity and will to win is pretty much unsurpassed in any era. You could make a case that we'd have won as many titles in that era.  But not more.  This was Bird's team.  Parish's defense.  Garnett would have been a great role player ala McHale.  The only time Garnett would have led those Celtics is when Bird was injured.

Since Bird was less demonstrative there might be a perception by people who didn't watch him much that he wasn't as intense.  Bird didn't headbutt any stantions or pound his chest.  He didn't have to.

I was around then - I grew up with that 1980s team. I was comparing KG's drive to McHale's, not to Bird's. That would be silly.

But if you're saying that a team's competitiveness depends only on the competitiveness of its best player and not on the will to win of anyone else, well, then I disagree.

And I also think that of that starting five, McHale was the least tenacious. When Bird called his teammates sissies, we all knew who he meant. (Luckily, so did McHale!).

LOL...McHale sure didn't look like a sissy when he clothslined Rambis....Although he did after!

Garnett took a backseat to Pierce when he joined the C's but maintained his antics.  IMHO, Garnett wouldn't have gotten away with all of those antics on Bird's teams.  Bird's teams were Bird's teams.  He would have considered the antics a distraction.  He would have been right.  Bird would have neutered a lot of Garnett's antics.  I'm not sure Garnett is the same player without them.  I think that they'd have been as good a team with Garnett.  I doubt they'd have been better.

It's probably a straw man argument because Garnett wouldn't have gotten away with a lot of his antics in that era.  Garnett is intense but he is relatively soft as a player.  An Oakley, Barkley, Malone, Lucas, etc would have clothslined him after a chest pounding or trash talking....Back when the NBA's players were allowed to police themselves.

[Heron]

Nobody's mentioned one of my all-time favorites: Dave Debuschere.Not top 5, but surely top 10. A nasty defender, tough rebounder, and great outside shot before the 3 pt line.Those 'sixties Knicks teams with Frazier, Monroe, Bradley and Reed must rank among greatest ever.

[More Banners]

It's probably a straw man argument because Garnett wouldn't have gotten away with a lot of his antics in that era.  Garnett is intense but he is relatively soft as a player.  An Oakley, Barkley, Malone, Lucas, etc would have clothslined him after a chest pounding or trash talking....Back when the NBA's players were allowed to police themselves.

A very good point. The tough guy/intimidation/psych game is mostly a show in today's game.  In the 80's, fights didn't even necessitate ejections, technicals, or sometimes even foul shots.  Mass of players grabbing, pushing, and hitting?  Break it up, a big warning, then a side-out.  Bill Laimbeer would have thrown KG on the ground.  Simple as that.

Which is part of why it's hard to compare players across eras like this.  How can wing players and PGs today (with the hand-check rule) be compared to the 80's guys, and even more the 70's teams (that were sometimes half-schnockered during games...the paint was a 48-minute bar fight!).