LeBron doesn't want to change his game because it would make him "a roleplayer"

[wdleehi]

 1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

1.  Great players all have different skills and styles.  I'm talking about the difference between great players who played within a team concept and great players who need to dominate the ball.  The point being that the way LeBron plays is NOT the only possible way he can be productive on the court.

2.  You're almost there.  Wade and LeBron BOTH have to adjust their games.  What would be stupid is for Wade to do all of the adjusting so can be a better version of Mo Williams while LeBron just plays the way he always has.

3.  If the only difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball is his hands" is that LeBron will be more productive, that still doesn't mean it's the best way for LeBron and this Heat team to play.

4.  What's the point of using Wade as a fairly average outside shooter?

5.  Good grief.  The point is that it might possibly be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball, especially when he's got teammates as good as Wade and Bosh.

And when LeBron starts winning titles, you can stop making excuses for him.  But to continue to insist that EVERYONE ELSE adjust to fit LeBron is excuse-making.

Mike

Who said if they make these adjustments they will win a title?


This is still a seriously flawed team. 

[indeedproceed]

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

LeBron's career assist average is 7.  AI's is 6.2.

Yeah, that .8 extra assists per game really makes all the difference.

And I'm not saying LeBron is "The Problem" in Miami.  He's part of the problem like everyone else.  There's no reason more excuses should be made for him than for Wade, who actually has led a team to a championship.

Mike

In Allen Iverson's first 8 years, his assist per game numbers were 5.7, during the ages 21-28. LeBron, ages 19-25 (to be 26) is 7.1. Iverson's turnovers per game was 3.7 in the same time period, LeBron's 3.4. LeBron should only get better and more efficient as his career progresses until he plateaus.

The reason I listed LeBron's career #'s is because it also includes his 5.9 asts per game his rookie year. In 8 years he's managed a career (including his bad years) number Iverson passed only 6 times in his 14 year NBA career. That is significant.

So, in their 1st 8 years, LeBron averaged 1.4 more assists and .3 fewer turnovers a game than AI.  That ain't exactly the difference between Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo.

Mike

You're comparing 2 perennial MVP candidates (for the years listed), not Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo. In that comparison, LeBron James is a significantly better combination of scoring and facilitating than Allen Iverson and at a younger age, and he'll only continue to get better.

[The Walker Wiggle]

The Walker Wiggles' fun fact of the day: As evidence of their lack of chemistry, Heat units featuring James and Wade but not Bosh have been outscored 110-148.

[MBunge]

 1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

1.  Great players all have different skills and styles.  I'm talking about the difference between great players who played within a team concept and great players who need to dominate the ball.  The point being that the way LeBron plays is NOT the only possible way he can be productive on the court.

2.  You're almost there.  Wade and LeBron BOTH have to adjust their games.  What would be stupid is for Wade to do all of the adjusting so can be a better version of Mo Williams while LeBron just plays the way he always has.

3.  If the only difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball is his hands" is that LeBron will be more productive, that still doesn't mean it's the best way for LeBron and this Heat team to play.

4.  What's the point of using Wade as a fairly average outside shooter?

5.  Good grief.  The point is that it might possibly be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball, especially when he's got teammates as good as Wade and Bosh.

And when LeBron starts winning titles, you can stop making excuses for him.  But to continue to insist that EVERYONE ELSE adjust to fit LeBron is excuse-making.

Mike

Who said if they make these adjustments they will win a title?


This is still a seriously flawed team. 

They may not win, but we've already seen how the "put the ball in LeBron's hands" approach worked in Cleveland.

Mike

[MBunge]

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

LeBron's career assist average is 7.  AI's is 6.2.

Yeah, that .8 extra assists per game really makes all the difference.

And I'm not saying LeBron is "The Problem" in Miami.  He's part of the problem like everyone else.  There's no reason more excuses should be made for him than for Wade, who actually has led a team to a championship.

Mike

In Allen Iverson's first 8 years, his assist per game numbers were 5.7, during the ages 21-28. LeBron, ages 19-25 (to be 26) is 7.1. Iverson's turnovers per game was 3.7 in the same time period, LeBron's 3.4. LeBron should only get better and more efficient as his career progresses until he plateaus.

The reason I listed LeBron's career #'s is because it also includes his 5.9 asts per game his rookie year. In 8 years he's managed a career (including his bad years) number Iverson passed only 6 times in his 14 year NBA career. That is significant.

So, in their 1st 8 years, LeBron averaged 1.4 more assists and .3 fewer turnovers a game than AI.  That ain't exactly the difference between Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo.

Mike

You're comparing 2 perennial MVP candidates (for the years listed), not Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo. In that comparison, LeBron James is a significantly better combination of scoring and facilitating than Allen Iverson and at a younger age, and he'll only continue to get better.

None of which means that playing the way AI did in Philadelphia or the way LeBron did in Cleveland is still a good way to play basketball.

Mike

[indeedproceed]

You're comparing 2 perennial MVP candidates (for the years listed), not Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo. In that comparison, LeBron James is a significantly better combination of scoring and facilitating than Allen Iverson and at a younger age, and he'll only continue to get better.

None of which means that playing the way AI did in Philadelphia or the way LeBron did in Cleveland is still a good way to play basketball.

Mike

A record of 222-106 over the past 4 seasons, 1 finals appearance and 1 conference finals appearance, along with not being beaten by a non-finals team for the last 4 seasons is a pretty good indicator of a successful formula.

It's pretty remarkable..without one other legitimate all-star, during a period of Eastern Conference resurgence, LeBron James has not lost a playoff series to a non-finals team in 4 years. Also, aside from the Spurs in 06-07, the Cavs under LeBron did not lost a playoff series in less than 6 games over the past 3 years.

I guess the point I'm making is that having LeBron as your primary playmaker and ball handler has worked out pretty darn well the past 4 seasons. Not title-worthy for sure, but is that the fault of team construction or LeBron's playstyle?

[BballTim]

 1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

1.  Great players all have different skills and styles.  I'm talking about the difference between great players who played within a team concept and great players who need to dominate the ball.  The point being that the way LeBron plays is NOT the only possible way he can be productive on the court.

2.  You're almost there.  Wade and LeBron BOTH have to adjust their games.  What would be stupid is for Wade to do all of the adjusting so can be a better version of Mo Williams while LeBron just plays the way he always has.

3.  If the only difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball is his hands" is that LeBron will be more productive, that still doesn't mean it's the best way for LeBron and this Heat team to play.

4.  What's the point of using Wade as a fairly average outside shooter?

5.  Good grief.  The point is that it might possibly be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball, especially when he's got teammates as good as Wade and Bosh.

And when LeBron starts winning titles, you can stop making excuses for him.  But to continue to insist that EVERYONE ELSE adjust to fit LeBron is excuse-making.

Mike

  1. Sigh. All great players do have different skills and styles. But when you talk about players who need to dominate the ball (as opposed to winning) don't forget that Jordan also fits in that category.

  2. You're nowhere near "there". How exactly are Wade and James supposed to adjust their games? Both are slashers, who like to (and are the best in the league at) getting into the lane and either getting to the rim or kicking the ball out. Neither of them are great outside shots. What roles do you envision them playing, given the team that they have, that will turn the Heat into a great offense?

  3.  You seem to be switching topics on that point. The Heat have a bad mix of players who would basically need different skill sets to be a good offense.

  4.  ?? Maybe you are almost there. Neither of them complement the other player well. It's like having a team where the best players are Rondo, Dwight Howard and Scottie Pippin. None of them are terrific scorers, and Rondo and Pippin aren't good enough outside shooters to keep people off of Dwight. simply saying that they should change their games doesn't solve anything.

  5.  It might be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball. But that's not necessarily true, as offenses tend to run well when he has the ball. But for the Heat, the alternative to LeBron dominating the ball is to have someone else dominate the ball, which doesn't help.

  Would you stop whining about making excuses for LeBron? Honestly. And I've never said that other players should adjust to fit LeBron. What they need to do is, and I know this sounds crazy, build a team around LeBron and surround him with players who's games complement his, not sign player who's games clash with his and expect people to adjust. Just like what was done with MJ, who never had to make large adjustments to his game. If the Bulls had traded Pippin for a player who's game wasn't as complementary then the Bulls would have stopped winning.

[BballTim]

 1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

1.  Great players all have different skills and styles.  I'm talking about the difference between great players who played within a team concept and great players who need to dominate the ball.  The point being that the way LeBron plays is NOT the only possible way he can be productive on the court.

2.  You're almost there.  Wade and LeBron BOTH have to adjust their games.  What would be stupid is for Wade to do all of the adjusting so can be a better version of Mo Williams while LeBron just plays the way he always has.

3.  If the only difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball is his hands" is that LeBron will be more productive, that still doesn't mean it's the best way for LeBron and this Heat team to play.

4.  What's the point of using Wade as a fairly average outside shooter?

5.  Good grief.  The point is that it might possibly be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball, especially when he's got teammates as good as Wade and Bosh.

And when LeBron starts winning titles, you can stop making excuses for him.  But to continue to insist that EVERYONE ELSE adjust to fit LeBron is excuse-making.

Mike

Who said if they make these adjustments they will win a title?


This is still a seriously flawed team. 

They may not win, but we've already seen how the "put the ball in LeBron's hands" approach worked in Cleveland.

Mike

  How many teams have been more successful than the Cavs the last 3-4 season? 2? 3? It worked pretty well, and that's with an iffy supporting cast.

[indeedproceed]

 5.  It might be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball. But that's not necessarily true, as offenses tend to run well when he has the ball. But for the Heat, the alternative to LeBron dominating the ball is to have someone else dominate the ball, which doesn't help.

Great point. I think one thing that isn't being said is that both LeBron and D-Wade are streaky scorers..that is they score in bunches. THat can be a whole game, or a 20 point quarter, but that's how they do. So, what happens when they're not scoring? They attempt to get to the hoop to get easy baskets, trying to get their confidence back. That means, everytime they try to score, despite having 2 other all-stars on the floor, they're basically iso'ing out there. Because of how Wade, Bosh, and LeBron define their offense, they all score one at a time, rather than as needed, as a team.

[Finkelskyhook]

How many teams have been more successful than the Cavs the last 3-4 season? 2? 3? It worked pretty well, and that's with an iffy supporting cast.   

It depends on how you define success.  If it's about great regular seasons...I'd say the messiah has been wildly successful.

I'll bet you thought Iverson never had a supporting cast either.

An all-time great in Shaq who is still performing at a high level with us.  An all star center in Big Z.  An all star in Jamison. An all star PG in Williams.  One of the best role players in the NBA in Varajao.  A coach of the year.  An attrocious supporting cast to be sure.

Hmm.....Maybe if the messiah took his game a little more seriously instead of dancing like an idiot on the sidelines and making a fool out of himself when a teammate dunks....And Maybe if he doesn't QUIT on his team...

.....Well Maybe.

[BballTim]

How many teams have been more successful than the Cavs the last 3-4 season? 2? 3? It worked pretty well, and that's with an iffy supporting cast.   

It depends on how you define success.  If it's about great regular seasons...I'd say the messiah has been wildly successful.

  Ok, go with the post season. Cleveland has a trip to the finals, another trip to the ECF and two trips to the 2nd round. How many teams do you think can top that in the same time frame? 8 or 9? Or (hmm) the same 2-3 teams? Can you define success in any way that more than 3 teams have been more successful than the Cavs in the last 3-4 years?

I'll bet you thought Iverson never had a supporting cast either.

 

An all-time great in Shaq who is still performing at a high level with us.  An all star center in Big Z.  An all star in Jamison. An all star PG in Williams.  One of the best role players in the NBA in Varajao.  A coach of the year.  An attrocious supporting cast to be sure.

  Haha. That sounds great, unless the person reading it has any familiarity with the nba. None of those "all stars" were, in fact all stars last year. And it wasn't a fluke. We're looking at a 27 year old one-time all star and two players in their mid-30s that have made 2 all-star games each. And, as it turns out, that all-time great is at least 3-4 years from being anything close to great. Oh, and did I mention that two of the players are both centers and neither of them are capable of playing more than 24 minutes a game?

  Sounds a little iffy if you say it like I did.

[Finkelskyhook]

How many teams have been more successful than the Cavs the last 3-4 season? 2? 3? It worked pretty well, and that's with an iffy supporting cast.   

It depends on how you define success.  If it's about great regular seasons...I'd say the messiah has been wildly successful.

  Ok, go with the post season. Cleveland has a trip to the finals, another trip to the ECF and two trips to the 2nd round. How many teams do you think can top that in the same time frame? 8 or 9? Or (hmm) the same 2-3 teams? Can you define success in any way that more than 3 teams have been more successful than the Cavs in the last 3-4 years?

I'll bet you thought Iverson never had a supporting cast either.

 

An all-time great in Shaq who is still performing at a high level with us.  An all star center in Big Z.  An all star in Jamison. An all star PG in Williams.  One of the best role players in the NBA in Varajao.  A coach of the year.  An attrocious supporting cast to be sure.

  Haha. That sounds great, unless the person reading it has any familiarity with the nba. None of those "all stars" were, in fact all stars last year. And it wasn't a fluke. We're looking at a 27 year old one-time all star and two players in their mid-30s that have made 2 all-star games each. And, as it turns out, that all-time great is at least 3-4 years from being anything close to great. Oh, and did I mention that two of the players are both centers and neither of them are capable of playing more than 24 minutes a game?

  Sounds a little iffy if you say it like I did.

Really?  Doesn't sound iffy to me.

Again, I'd have to point out the poster-child illustration...Shaq.  One team recognizes what he has left.  The messiah didn't.

[MBunge]

A record of 222-106 over the past 4 seasons, 1 finals appearance and 1 conference finals appearance, along with not being beaten by a non-finals team for the last 4 seasons is a pretty good indicator of a successful formula.

If you want to put LeBron in the "Hall of Guys Who Almost Won It All" alongside Steve Nash, go right ahead.

Mike

[MBunge]

  1. Sigh. All great players do have different skills and styles. But when you talk about players who need to dominate the ball (as opposed to winning) don't forget that Jordan also fits in that category.

  2. You're nowhere near "there". How exactly are Wade and James supposed to adjust their games? Both are slashers, who like to (and are the best in the league at) getting into the lane and either getting to the rim or kicking the ball out. Neither of them are great outside shots. What roles do you envision them playing, given the team that they have, that will turn the Heat into a great offense?

  3.  You seem to be switching topics on that point. The Heat have a bad mix of players who would basically need different skill sets to be a good offense.

  4.  ?? Maybe you are almost there. Neither of them complement the other player well. It's like having a team where the best players are Rondo, Dwight Howard and Scottie Pippin. None of them are terrific scorers, and Rondo and Pippin aren't good enough outside shooters to keep people off of Dwight. simply saying that they should change their games doesn't solve anything.

  5.  It might be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball. But that's not necessarily true, as offenses tend to run well when he has the ball. But for the Heat, the alternative to LeBron dominating the ball is to have someone else dominate the ball, which doesn't help.

  Would you stop whining about making excuses for LeBron? Honestly. And I've never said that other players should adjust to fit LeBron. What they need to do is, and I know this sounds crazy, build a team around LeBron and surround him with players who's games complement his, not sign player who's games clash with his and expect people to adjust. Just like what was done with MJ, who never had to make large adjustments to his game. If the Bulls had traded Pippin for a player who's game wasn't as complementary then the Bulls would have stopped winning.

1.  Why does LeBron need to dominate the ball?  You keep saying that LeBron has to have the ball in his hands without ever explaining why.

2.  My point is that it's far easier and much more likely to have success if Wade and LeBron both make adjustments to play with each other, rather than do what you've repeatedly stated and have LeBron play EXACTLY the same way he always has while Wade (and Boshy) do everything differently.

3.  Uh, statistically the Heat are scoring about as much as the Celtics.  For all their problems, they're still a good offensive team.

4.  Unless you have a time machine that you can loan Pat Riley, LeBron, Wade and Bosh are going to be playing with each other for quite a while.  They need to learn how to play together better and the obvious solution to that is all three are going to need to adjust their games.  I don't know how well they can do that, but it's the only thing they can do.

5.  Yes, if the only options are to have either Wade or Bron dominate the ball, either is going to present problems.  But there is another possibility, you know?  They could try and play within an offense where no one dominates the ball the way Wade and Bron traditionally have.  I know it's a crazy idea, but it might just work.

You are making excuses for LeBron because every point you make is based on the idea that there's nothing wrong with LeBron and he doesn't need to make any changes.  Well, he wanted to play with Wade and Bosh.  If it's not working, it's as much his fault as anyone else.

Mike

[MBunge]

  How many teams have been more successful than the Cavs the last 3-4 season? 2? 3? It worked pretty well, and that's with an iffy supporting cast.

Again, Steve Nash appreciates your praise for his regular season exploits.

And again, the fact that the Cavs could end up being a .500 team without LeBron or any really good replacement for him proves they weren't all that "iffy" a supporting cast after all.

Stop making excuses for LeBron by implying his failure in Cleveland was the fault of everybody except him.

Mike