LeBron doesn't want to change his game because it would make him "a roleplayer"

[MBunge]

3.  What the hell is the difference between running the AI offense and "putting the ball in LeBron's hands"?

AI had only 6 of 14 NBA seasons where he averaged more assists per game than LeBron's career average. He's surpassed his career assist average and elevated it each of the past 4 seasons. AI was served best by having a defensive team that could cover up his mistakes on the offensive end and a terrible, awful, no good, very bad Eastern Conference. I'm not saying AI wasn't a legit MVP winner, and a warrior, and a legit All-NBA player, because he was...but the conference was baaaaad.

The point being, what's the difference between playing the way the 6ers did that season with AI and the constant refrain of "putting the ball in LeBron's hands".  Bron's better than AI, but the competition is a lot better as well, so why should it work now?

Mike

[BballTim]

1)  What's the point of signing a Lebron if you put him in a position to fail?

2)  I wouldn't play any of the Miami PGs.  They are all terrible.  Lebron is a better playmaker.  Put the ball in his hand and have Wade and Bosh learn to play off him.  If they can't trade them in the off-season to find stars that can.  It doesn't mean they become bit players.  They are still stars putting up star number (just at a lower rate)

3)  AI took a defensive team to the finals because the East was unbelievable bad that year.  He had to beat the Carter Raptors, the Ray/Big Dog/Cassell Bucks and I believe the Isiah coached Pacers (I could be wrong on the third team).  Hardly the murders row Lebron had to face the past few years.  (Detroit, SA, Boston (twice), Orlando)  Plus, no one said run the AI type offense, just put the ball in Lebron's hands.

4) Lebron is a scorer that can do more with the ball.  He is the hardest guy on that team to defend.  He will move the most defenders when the ball is in his hand.  So why take the ball out of his hand?  They should be picking and rolling teams to death with Lebron and Bosh.  

6) Jordon would have never won 6 rings if he wasn't in an offense that put the ball in his hands.  

1.  How is asking LeBron to play the same way Larry Bird played putting him "in a position to fail"?

2.  Uh, what Miami is doing right now is pretty much exactly what you're describing and it ain't working all that well.

3.  What the hell is the difference between running the AI offense and "putting the ball in LeBron's hands"?

4.  You take the ball out of his hands because...

A.  We've seen what happens when the ball is in LeBron's hands all the time and the result is consistently losing in the playoffs to the other contenders.

B.  If LeBron is so great, it ought to be easier for him to adjust to not having the ball in his hands than either Wade or Bosh.

5.  While Jordan often bailed out Phil's triangle offense the same way Kobe does today, the idea that offense consisted of "putting the ball in Jordan's hands" is beyond silly.

LeBron is the new communism.  He can never fail.  He can only be failed.

Mike

  1. Asking any player in the game today to play the same way that Bird played is putting them in a position to fail. None of them approach his skill set.

  2. What Miami is doing is putting the ball in LeBron's hands, but the have Wade and Bosh learn to play off of him part hasn't happened yet if it does happen at all.

  3. The year AI went to the finals he averaged about twice as many shots per assist as what James averaged last year. You were a lot less concerned about AI passing the ball.

  4. You could also say the results were getting far enough in the playoffs to play contenders. And you're missing the point about him adjusting to not having the ball in his hands. Kevin McHale, as we saw later in his career, was a good outside shooter and probably could have adjusted to not playing in the paint. But why would you want him to? LeBron's good with the ball in his hands, the rest of the Heat's roster isn't structured to take advantage of that.

  5. MJ had the ball on virtually every possession. His usage numbers were higher than anyone who plays the game today.

  LeBron can fail, and he obviously has failed. But my point, all along, was that at the same age Jordan had seen much less success than LeBron. I don't like LeBron, I'm just trying to add a little perspective to this conversations.

[MBunge]

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

  They ran the ball more through Rondo as the season went on, especially in the playoffs. Rajon's role was clearly less prominent than it is now, but don't forget how the team struggled when he was injured during that December/January stretch.

In the Lakers series they ran everything through KG/Paul, same for the Cavs series. I haven't rewatched the Pistons series in a long time so I can't recall what the C's did for that series.

He was involved but to hold up the 07-08 C's as a PG run offense is wrong.

The point is not that Rondo in 07-08 was the equivalent of Magic, Nash or Kidd.  It's that he played a much bigger role in the offense than all of Miami's PGs do this season put together.

In the 07-08 playoffs, Rondo averaged 32 minutes and 6.6 assists a game.  Yes, KG and Paul had the ball a lot, but Rondo didn't just stand around waiting for them to do everything.

Mike

[BballTim]

2.  Miami would probably be better off if they followed Boston's lead offensively and actually let their point guard run the show.  Arroyo is pretty bad defensively, but he could certainly do as good a job running an offense as Rondo did back in '08.  If the Celtic offense back then had consisted of Paul or Ray pounding the ball for most of the shot clock while Rondo or Cassell stood behind the 3 pt line, they probably would have had the same trouble the Heat are now having.  But LeBron's never allowed anyone else to run the offense on his teams.

There is some serious recall bias in this statement. The 2007-2008 Celtics ran their offense through Paul Pierce and KG, not through Rondo. The offense was certainly more cohesive than the Heat's but that's not because they handed Rondo the keys. He was frequently benched for being ineffective in favor of House, who'd do just what Arroyo is asked to do now.

  They ran the ball more through Rondo as the season went on, especially in the playoffs. Rajon's role was clearly less prominent than it is now, but don't forget how the team struggled when he was injured during that December/January stretch.

In the Lakers series they ran everything through KG/Paul, same for the Cavs series. I haven't rewatched the Pistons series in a long time so I can't recall what the C's did for that series.

He was involved but to hold up the 07-08 C's as a PG run offense is wrong.

  The Lakers series where he had 16 assists in game 2, and had 8 assists and took 20 shots in game 6? 10 shots, 10 fts and 7 assists in game one? Again, Rondo's role was less prominant than it is now, but saying that they ran everything through Paul and KG isn't the case at all.

[Chris]

This is the quote in question?

“No, I can’t change my game dramatically and I don’t think he can either,” LeBron said. “It doesn’t make any sense to do that. I’m not going to.” He paused. “I’d just be a role player at that point.”

Honestly, that is what he should be saying.  It would be a darn shame is Lebron or Wade ever became role players.  And he didn't say he wasn't going to change at all, just not dramatically.  And he shouldn't.  He should continue to work to improve, and they should all work to learn to play together and fit their skills together.  But there is no way Lebron should become a role player, or ever take the back seat.

Yes, he needs to learn what he needs to do to win, however, he needs to learn it within what he is doing now.  He needs to learn how to use his defensive abilities to better help the team.  He needs to learn how best to use his offensive skills within the system.

None of these things are dramatic changes.  

[LilRip]

The point is not that Rondo in 07-08 was the equivalent of Magic, Nash or Kidd.  It's that he played a much bigger role in the offense than all of Miami's PGs do this season put together.

In the 07-08 playoffs, Rondo averaged 32 minutes and 6.6 assists a game.  Yes, KG and Paul had the ball a lot, but Rondo didn't just stand around waiting for them to do everything.

Mike

indeed, Rondo played a bigger part in offense than the invisible carlos arroyo but he didn't "run the show". he played a prominent role in an offense with lots of motion. not this Heat offense that goes your-turn, my-turn like an all-star game with lots of dribbling and fancy finishes.

and besides, Arroyo is not a quality starting PG and the Heat's troubles go beyond their offense. we probably wouldn't have won in '08 if Arroyo was our starting PG instead of Rondo. the Heat just can't let Arroyo "run the show" because he can't. at least, not on a consistent basis for extended stretches.

[indeedproceed]

3.  What the hell is the difference between running the AI offense and "putting the ball in LeBron's hands"?

AI had only 6 of 14 NBA seasons where he averaged more assists per game than LeBron's career average. He's surpassed his career assist average and elevated it each of the past 4 seasons. AI was served best by having a defensive team that could cover up his mistakes on the offensive end and a terrible, awful, no good, very bad Eastern Conference. I'm not saying AI wasn't a legit MVP winner, and a warrior, and a legit All-NBA player, because he was...but the conference was baaaaad.

The point being, what's the difference between playing the way the 6ers did that season with AI and the constant refrain of "putting the ball in LeBron's hands".  Bron's better than AI, but the competition is a lot better as well, so why should it work now?

Mike

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

[MBunge]

  1. Asking any player in the game today to play the same way that Bird played is putting them in a position to fail. None of them approach his skill set.

  2. What Miami is doing is putting the ball in LeBron's hands, but the have Wade and Bosh learn to play off of him part hasn't happened yet if it does happen at all.

  3. The year AI went to the finals he averaged about twice as many shots per assist as what James averaged last year. You were a lot less concerned about AI passing the ball.

  4. You could also say the results were getting far enough in the playoffs to play contenders. And you're missing the point about him adjusting to not having the ball in his hands. Kevin McHale, as we saw later in his career, was a good outside shooter and probably could have adjusted to not playing in the paint. But why would you want him to? LeBron's good with the ball in his hands, the rest of the Heat's roster isn't structured to take advantage of that.

  5. MJ had the ball on virtually every possession. His usage numbers were higher than anyone who plays the game today.

  LeBron can fail, and he obviously has failed. But my point, all along, was that at the same age Jordan had seen much less success than LeBron. I don't like LeBron, I'm just trying to add a little perspective to this conversations.

1.  What about the way Barkely played the game?  Or James Worthy?  Or Karl Malone?  Or Dirk Nowitski?  Or Manu Ginobili?

2.  Again, the idea that Wade and Bosh have to become better versions of Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao for the Heat to win is evidence that LeBron is as big a problem as anything else there.

3.  You still haven't explained the difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball in his hands".  If the only change is that LeBron will average a couple more assists a game, I don't see how that's going to make the Heat that much better than AI's 6ers.

4.  And what kind of player would LeBron be like if he didn't need to dominate the ball all the time?  We don't know, because he's never done it.

5.  And how many players have been successful dominating the ball like MJ did vs. how many were successful playing more of a team game?  If you have to be as good as Jordan to win, you're setting yourself a really, really, really high bar to get over.

What you're doing is making excuses for LeBron because you're arguing that everybody else is the problem.  There's plenty of blame to go around in Miami and I just think that LeBron deserves his fair share.

Mike

[MBunge]

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

LeBron's career assist average is 7.  AI's is 6.2.

Yeah, that .8 extra assists per game really makes all the difference.

And I'm not saying LeBron is "The Problem" in Miami.  He's part of the problem like everyone else.  There's no reason more excuses should be made for him than for Wade, who actually has led a team to a championship.

Mike

[indeedproceed]

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

LeBron's career assist average is 7.  AI's is 6.2.

Yeah, that .8 extra assists per game really makes all the difference.

And I'm not saying LeBron is "The Problem" in Miami.  He's part of the problem like everyone else.  There's no reason more excuses should be made for him than for Wade, who actually has led a team to a championship.

Mike

In Allen Iverson's first 8 years, his assist per game numbers were 5.7, during the ages 21-28. LeBron, ages 19-25 (to be 26) is 7.1. Iverson's turnovers per game was 3.7 in the same time period, LeBron's 3.4. LeBron should only get better and more efficient as his career progresses until he plateaus.

The reason I listed LeBron's career #'s is because it also includes his 5.9 asts per game his rookie year. In 8 years he's managed a career (including his bad years) number Iverson passed only 6 times in his 14 year NBA career. That is significant.

[BballTim]

  1. Asking any player in the game today to play the same way that Bird played is putting them in a position to fail. None of them approach his skill set.

  2. What Miami is doing is putting the ball in LeBron's hands, but the have Wade and Bosh learn to play off of him part hasn't happened yet if it does happen at all.

  3. The year AI went to the finals he averaged about twice as many shots per assist as what James averaged last year. You were a lot less concerned about AI passing the ball.

  4. You could also say the results were getting far enough in the playoffs to play contenders. And you're missing the point about him adjusting to not having the ball in his hands. Kevin McHale, as we saw later in his career, was a good outside shooter and probably could have adjusted to not playing in the paint. But why would you want him to? LeBron's good with the ball in his hands, the rest of the Heat's roster isn't structured to take advantage of that.

  5. MJ had the ball on virtually every possession. His usage numbers were higher than anyone who plays the game today.

  LeBron can fail, and he obviously has failed. But my point, all along, was that at the same age Jordan had seen much less success than LeBron. I don't like LeBron, I'm just trying to add a little perspective to this conversations.

1.  What about the way Barkely played the game?  Or James Worthy?  Or Karl Malone?  Or Dirk Nowitski?  Or Manu Ginobili?

2.  Again, the idea that Wade and Bosh have to become better versions of Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao for the Heat to win is evidence that LeBron is as big a problem as anything else there.

3.  You still haven't explained the difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball in his hands".  If the only change is that LeBron will average a couple more assists a game, I don't see how that's going to make the Heat that much better than AI's 6ers.

4.  And what kind of player would LeBron be like if he didn't need to dominate the ball all the time?  We don't know, because he's never done it.

5.  And how many players have been successful dominating the ball like MJ did vs. how many were successful playing more of a team game?  If you have to be as good as Jordan to win, you're setting yourself a really, really, really high bar to get over.

What you're doing is making excuses for LeBron because you're arguing that everybody else is the problem.  There's plenty of blame to go around in Miami and I just think that LeBron deserves his fair share.

Mike

  1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

[wdleehi]

So you wanted the Heat to spend the amount of money on Lebron so he could be a different player? 


Lebron would have been a heck of a player in the 80's.  Someone with his size and speed when players were allowed to hand check!  Imagine the defense he could have played under those rules. 

[MBunge]

The point is that LeBron at age 25 is a better facilitator than AI ever was. That's why its different.

It is also why LeBron is not "The Problem" in Miami.

LeBron's career assist average is 7.  AI's is 6.2.

Yeah, that .8 extra assists per game really makes all the difference.

And I'm not saying LeBron is "The Problem" in Miami.  He's part of the problem like everyone else.  There's no reason more excuses should be made for him than for Wade, who actually has led a team to a championship.

Mike

In Allen Iverson's first 8 years, his assist per game numbers were 5.7, during the ages 21-28. LeBron, ages 19-25 (to be 26) is 7.1. Iverson's turnovers per game was 3.7 in the same time period, LeBron's 3.4. LeBron should only get better and more efficient as his career progresses until he plateaus.

The reason I listed LeBron's career #'s is because it also includes his 5.9 asts per game his rookie year. In 8 years he's managed a career (including his bad years) number Iverson passed only 6 times in his 14 year NBA career. That is significant.

So, in their 1st 8 years, LeBron averaged 1.4 more assists and .3 fewer turnovers a game than AI.  That ain't exactly the difference between Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo.

Mike

[MBunge]

 1. You don't see a difference between the way Bird played and the way worthy and Malone played, when they were on the court with Magic and Stockton? Wow.

  2. No, you're missing the point entirely. The team doesn't mesh. LeBron is great at what he does but needs to have the floor spaced and players that can hit open shots to be most effective. Same with Wade. The only way to make Wade truly effective would be for LeBron to stand around on the perimeter and take outside shots when Wade gets him the ball. Even if LeBron could do that, would you want him to? That's somewhat like signing a young Shaq and telling him his role in the offense is to set good picks at the top of the key.

  3. For one thing, if you look at AI and James playoff stats and compare possessions used (including assists) to points scored or assisted you'll see that LeBron generated significantly more points per possession.

  4. We know he's a fairly average outside shooter. What would be the point of signing LeBron and utilizing him like that?

  5. Sure, it's a really high bar. But, again, without the knowledge of how MJ's career would turn out the players are very close. If you put LeBron from last year in the NBA in the late 80s I think people would be fairly split on who was going to be the better player.

  Again, I'm not making excuses for LeBron. I'm pointing out that, at the same age, Jordan was similarly criticized. He really wasn't seen in the same class as Larry or Magic until he started winning titles, and he didn't start winning titles until he was older than LeBron is.

1.  Great players all have different skills and styles.  I'm talking about the difference between great players who played within a team concept and great players who need to dominate the ball.  The point being that the way LeBron plays is NOT the only possible way he can be productive on the court.

2.  You're almost there.  Wade and LeBron BOTH have to adjust their games.  What would be stupid is for Wade to do all of the adjusting so can be a better version of Mo Williams while LeBron just plays the way he always has.

3.  If the only difference between AI "having the ball in his hands" and LeBron "having the ball is his hands" is that LeBron will be more productive, that still doesn't mean it's the best way for LeBron and this Heat team to play.

4.  What's the point of using Wade as a fairly average outside shooter?

5.  Good grief.  The point is that it might possibly be easier for LeBron to win if he doesn't dominate the ball, especially when he's got teammates as good as Wade and Bosh.

And when LeBron starts winning titles, you can stop making excuses for him.  But to continue to insist that EVERYONE ELSE adjust to fit LeBron is excuse-making.

Mike

[MBunge]

So you wanted the Heat to spend the amount of money on Lebron so he could be a different player?  

Why spend the money on Wade and Bosh if you want them to be different players?

Mike