Glen Davis and the art of the charge

[CelticG1]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

Numbers must be way off. A couple games ago Gorman was talking about how davis had like 10 on the season. He's definitely has a few games where he has drawn multiple charges.

[xmuscularghandix]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game. 

[indeedproceed]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game. 

He had...what, 1 last game?

Why do I think he had 2?

In any case, in the PBP from ESPN, they have two drawn offensive fouls last game, one by Russell Westbrook drawn by Glen Davis, one by Kevin Garnett drawn by Durant..and I know there were more than 2 called.

Maybe there is something about charges and the way they're logged we don't know.

[Birdbrain]

He had 2 last night.  They flashed a stat on Friday that he had like 13 of the teams 15. 

It's basically a steal. 

[BballTim]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game. 

He had...what, 1 last game?

Why do I think he had 2?

In any case, in the PBP from ESPN, they have two drawn offensive fouls last game, one by Russell Westbrook drawn by Glen Davis, one by Kevin Garnett drawn by Durant..and I know there were more than 2 called.

Maybe there is something about charges and the way they're logged we don't know.

  I'm pretty sure that they get a lot of their info from parsing ESPN play by play logs. ESPN might not specify charges, I'd have to check.

[jr_3421]

Three on the year?  I've seen at least 8 or 9 of them.  And I don't think Davis is a flopper- he simply draws charges correctly.  He actually takes quite a bit of punishment.  Ginobili will go run near another player and flail and go down.  Baby never does this.  He anticipates where the offensive player is going, gets out of the circle and into his path, and takes the contact.  I give him extra testosterone points for this, not less.  

Agreed. To me is a flopper is a player who exaggerates the contact by flailing or jumping backwards. BBD actually takes the hit and falls naturally down.

[CelticG1]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game. 

He had...what, 1 last game?

Why do I think he had 2?

In any case, in the PBP from ESPN, they have two drawn offensive fouls last game, one by Russell Westbrook drawn by Glen Davis, one by Kevin Garnett drawn by Durant..and I know there were more than 2 called.

Maybe there is something about charges and the way they're logged we don't know.

Thats what I was thinking but it seems like a pretty obvious stat to keep track of. Basically when the ref emphatically points toward the other basket, whoever is on the ground is the one who took the charge.

By the way I'm watching the game again on CSN right now and have seen Baby take 2 charges and theres still 7 minutes left in the first half.

[xmuscularghandix]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game. 

He had...what, 1 last game?

Why do I think he had 2?

In any case, in the PBP from ESPN, they have two drawn offensive fouls last game, one by Russell Westbrook drawn by Glen Davis, one by Kevin Garnett drawn by Durant..and I know there were more than 2 called.

Maybe there is something about charges and the way they're logged we don't know.

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game.

[indeedproceed]

Charges should be credited like steals are.

While Baby is great at getting charges, he has also become a shameless flopper. Even the slightest contact and he hits the floor. The refs ignore his flops sometimes, but he is one of the most egregious floppers in the league at the moment.

I'll take it though. He does get into great position.

Charges are kept track of. Davis has 3 on the year, which puts him in a 5-way tie for 3rd among PF's for charges taken per game.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't tell you where!

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

  They keep track of charges but I think the numbers are way off.

WAY off. I’m almost insulted by that…

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game.  

He had...what, 1 last game?

Why do I think he had 2?

In any case, in the PBP from ESPN, they have two drawn offensive fouls last game, one by Russell Westbrook drawn by Glen Davis, one by Kevin Garnett drawn by Durant..and I know there were more than 2 called.

Maybe there is something about charges and the way they're logged we don't know.

  I'm pretty sure that they get a lot of their info from parsing ESPN play by play logs. ESPN might not specify charges, I'd have to check.

I went over the PBP log from last night's game, and they only logged 2 offensive fouls with the player drawing the foul shown. Here is the single one involving BBD:

7:07       36-31   Russell Westbrook offensive foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)

Here is the one I also believe was a charge:

11:17   Nate Robinson misses 19-foot jumper   30-21   
11:15       30-21   James Harden defensive rebound
11:07       30-21   James Harden foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)
11:07       30-21   James Harden turnover

[Fafnir]

Three on the year?  I've seen at least 8 or 9 of them.  And I don't think Davis is a flopper- he simply draws charges correctly.  He actually takes quite a bit of punishment.  Ginobili will go run near another player and flail and go down.  Baby never does this.  He anticipates where the offensive player is going, gets out of the circle and into his path, and takes the contact.  I give him extra testosterone points for this, not less.  

Agreed. To me is a flopper is a player who exaggerates the contact by flailing or jumping backwards. BBD actually takes the hit and falls naturally down.

He gave an interview were he talked abou it and admitted you have to flop a little. I'll have to look for it, but basically he said: "you have to fall down to get the call", and then told an ancedote about how in his rookie year a guard bounced off him and the officially didn't blow the whistle because Davis just absorbed the blow.

(and the guard was upset that he took that much contact and didn't the get the whistle for a block)

[Fafnir]

Since score keepers don't track charges drawn its very hard for most stats sites to track them. You either have to rely on play by play logs or watch every game.

Synergy might help with this too.

[indeedproceed]

Glen Davis has like 12 charges so far on the year. Hell he had 2 in the fourth quarter of the Miami Heat game.

I found this, which looks like a charge:

8:56       61-66    Official timeout
8:42   Dwyane Wade foul (Glen Davis draws the foul)   61-66   
8:42   Dwyane Wade turnover   61-66   

but in the 4th quarter, they list 3 other 'offensive fouls' (charges) with the players that drew them.

The miami game though was my birthday, so mostly i remember the beerpong and ridiculous things people said I did. I might have watch 5 mins total of that game unfortunately.

[LooseCannon]

Is taking charges REALLY an effective defensive strategy?  How effective do you have to be at getting the charge called for it to be a better strategy than going for the block/trying to alter the shot? 

It depends.  The threshold is lower for players who don't block or alter shots.  Being short, Glen Davis is probably better off trying to draw a charge.  He's also a bench player, so it's not as big of a deal if he instead gets charged with a blocking foul.  He's also physically solid and can take the contact.  I don't really want to see KG trying to draw charges because he can alter a shot, he's too important to risk picking up a foul, and I don't want to see him crashing to the floor.  Big Baby is the exact opposite.  Heck, after basketball, he could make some money doing Chris Farley-style physical comedy.  He would make an awesome professional wrestler.

As for stats, they should just have an overall stat for forced turnovers that include drawing offensive fouls, stealing the ball, and anything else you can think of.

[guava_wrench]

Three on the year?  I've seen at least 8 or 9 of them.  And I don't think Davis is a flopper- he simply draws charges correctly.  He actually takes quite a bit of punishment.  Ginobili will go run near another player and flail and go down.  Baby never does this.  He anticipates where the offensive player is going, gets out of the circle and into his path, and takes the contact.  I give him extra testosterone points for this, not less.  

Agreed. To me is a flopper is a player who exaggerates the contact by flailing or jumping backwards. BBD actually takes the hit and falls naturally down.

He gave an interview were he talked abou it and admitted you have to flop a little. I'll have to look for it, but basically he said: "you have to fall down to get the call", and then told an ancedote about how in his rookie year a guard bounced off him and the officially didn't blow the whistle because Davis just absorbed the blow.

(and the guard was upset that he took that much contact and didn't the get the whistle for a block)

Good answer.

I think people like to hang their homerism on flopping. If an opponent gets a charge call, flop. If their team gets it, good defense. If an offensive player fouls a defender by charging them, you often need to give in to the contact to get a charge call.

It is often dumb to try to stay standing because you are letting the refs off the hook when the offense initiates illegal contact that is hard to call as a ref.

Baby has gotten to the point that force insufficient to knock him over sends him to the floor.

[guava_wrench]

Is taking charges REALLY an effective defensive strategy?  How effective do you have to be at getting the charge called for it to be a better strategy than going for the block/trying to alter the shot? 

It depends.  The threshold is lower for players who don't block or alter shots.  Being short, Glen Davis is probably better off trying to draw a charge.  He's also a bench player, so it's not as big of a deal if he instead gets charged with a blocking foul.  He's also physically solid and can take the contact.  I don't really want to see KG trying to draw charges because he can alter a shot, he's too important to risk picking up a foul, and I don't want to see him crashing to the floor.  Big Baby is the exact opposite.  Heck, after basketball, he could make some money doing Chris Farley-style physical comedy.  He would make an awesome professional wrestler.

As for stats, they should just have an overall stat for forced turnovers that include drawing offensive fouls, stealing the ball, and anything else you can think of.

A charge is clearly a better outcome than a block. You get possession with a charge, plus a foul against an opposing player.

A block gets you nothing unless you get the ball off the block.

If we are going to talk about the effort, it is hard to figure out the possible outcomes. If Baby tried for a block instead, what are the chances we end up giving the other team a 3 point play?