Author Topic: So who do we get for big baby now?  (Read 34030 times)

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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2010, 01:29:37 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2010, 02:26:51 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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For those harping on how Jermaine did in this past year's playoffs, and citing that Davis "rose to the occasion".... I'd love to see how Davis would fare AGAINST the Celtics in the playoffs.  I'd say that was the big difference.  Another sizable difference is that Davis is surrounded by quality players who are able to take the heat off of him. 

This is a very good point. If Baby were playing against the Celtics and had to make shots over KG and Perk... He probably would have been blocked 85% of the time rather than 20-25%.

Face it, Baby is our number one trade chip. He is young and has a decent expiring contract at the end of the season. He will be appealing for other teams and can easily be replaced for us to fill a mid season need. There are any guys in the league who are making less that can bring to the table what Baby does.. People have said he is our best player off the bench... But he is 5th on our depth chart for big men (KG, Shaq, JO, Perk, Baby) and that makes three of those guys playing on the bench right there. Plus you have West, Robinson, and Daniels to throw into the discussion as well.

I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2010, 02:36:50 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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I'll stick with the notion previously stated that the C's best bench player (this season) won't be traded for another backup player bench player.  Hopefully we can revisit this later in the season and find out who was right and who was wrong.

I will even go a step further and say BBD is actually getting better ( I don't think he's gotten as good as he will be which even for homer like me is surprising ) and will be a good replacement for KG in 2 years.  Now we might have to deal with a few block shots but, since that doesn't really matter too much it should be fine.

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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2010, 02:53:26 PM »

Offline greenpride32

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Baby is going to be an important player in the rotation.  I don't see him getting traded unless:

1 - he causes a locker room disruption due to his contract (ala Moss)

2 - the Celtics are able to land a very established player (comparble to Caron Butler from last year's rumors)

You would trade him if your team was not in contention.  But why mess with a team that has been successful the past 3 years with Baby being a big part of the second unit.

Some people said Baby is only effective because of the great players around him.  That's true of any other player on this team including Rondo.  This is not a knock on Rondo, but let's face it, if he played on a poor team his lack of an outside shot would be even more exposed. 

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2010, 03:09:02 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.

JO's lack of heart and toughness is major read flag, and that deficiency of character is at the heart of his injury problems the last 4 seasons.  We also have the fact that he's starting this season like he ended the last one--injured.  I don't blame players for getting injured--it happens.  But I do blame them for not giving a crap, and I'm pretty sure JO doesn't give a crap anymore and that's why his body is breaking down around him.  If I had been in his shoes, after a bad showing to end the season, and after signing with a great team like the Cs, I would have worked out like crazy, probably finding a new trainer and taking my eating and sleeping habits to a new level in hopes of getting past my injury history once and for all.  I probably would have shed some weight too, since that takes pressure off knees and ligaments and helps guys extend their career.  What did Jermaine do?  He came into training camp out-of-shape, and suffered three minor injuries in 2 weeks and now looks like he'll miss the beginning of the season.  That's been the story of his career.

The lack of ups on the offensive end is interesting and it probably has to do with his injury history and how it's changed his body.  He's had shoulder and knee issues, and my best guess is that having the ball in his hands and with a guy being physical with him causes him to lose balance and that loss of balance affects the height of his jump, something that prevents him from getting the proper height on his jump and makes him come up front rim time after time.  He would need a total body makeover to regain his ability to jump powerfully with the ball in his hands and with a guy bumping him, and as I mentioned before he doesn't have the commitment to the game anymore to make that kind of sacrifice.  So, while he can still jump well enough to be a good/great shotblocker and solid rebounder, since he has both ups and length, he is really unable to translate that length and ups to the offensive end, making him very Perk-like when he tries to create his own shot.

Now, Baby doesn't have the natural leaping ability or length of JO, meaning he's going to have his troubles rebounding in traffic or blocking shots.  But what he does have is great balance and footwork, meaning he can take a bump and still jump with power and balance and convert a shot.  What it means in the overall team scheme is that Baby has the ability to create his own shot and finish in traffic (because he has balance and bulk to create the blue sky), while JO--even though he does have ups and length--cannot.  JO came here under the auspices of being a low post threat--unfortunately, he really isn't anymore.  He's nothing more than a glorified jump shooter on the offensive end, while Baby can do everything else much better.

If I was being generous, I'd call JO a rich man's PJ Brown.  Like Brown, JO can stick an open jumper, rebound the ball, block shots, and play good team defense.  In that sense, JO's a good guy to have around, just like PJ was.  But like PJ, I expect JO to do a whole lot of sitting the bench come playoff time, and hopefully for us he has PJ's knack of making big plays in key moments when he does get a few minutes here or there.  Because that's about all he's going to get if everyone else is healthy. 
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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2010, 03:33:23 PM »

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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2010, 03:39:30 PM »

Offline Chris

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.
 

I guess it depends on your definition of washed up.  However, I don't think he got the MLE off past accomplishments.  Yes, 20/10 is gone by, but those are max contract numbers, not MLE numbers. 

Last year he averaged 8.4 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 1.8 blocks per game in 24 minutes.  Sadly, in today's NBA, those are MLE numbers.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2010, 04:12:36 PM »

Offline dpaps

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.
 

I guess it depends on your definition of washed up.  However, I don't think he got the MLE off past accomplishments.  Yes, 20/10 is gone by, but those are max contract numbers, not MLE numbers. 

Last year he averaged 8.4 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 1.8 blocks per game in 24 minutes.  Sadly, in today's NBA, those are MLE numbers.




I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but they're not accurate.

 Jermaine is far from washed up. He's a well above average defensive center. Last year, he started in 70 games for the heat and averaged 14 pts 7 rbs and 1.5 blocks all while shooting a career high 53% from the floor. Of course Jermaine isn't the player he was 5 years ago (but neither are KG, PP, Ray, or Shaq), but he's still a very useful and well above average NBA player.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2010, 04:22:21 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.
 

I guess it depends on your definition of washed up.  However, I don't think he got the MLE off past accomplishments.  Yes, 20/10 is gone by, but those are max contract numbers, not MLE numbers. 

Last year he averaged 8.4 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 1.8 blocks per game in 24 minutes.  Sadly, in today's NBA, those are MLE numbers.




I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but they're not accurate.

 Jermaine is far from washed up. He's a well above average defensive center. Last year, he started in 70 games for the heat and averaged 14 pts 7 rbs and 1.5 blocks all while shooting a career high 53% from the floor. Of course Jermaine isn't the player he was 5 years ago (but neither are KG, PP, Ray, or Shaq), but he's still a very useful and well above average NBA player.

Agreed. JO is vastly underrated on here. When healthy he is an above-average starter, and certainly a great option off the bench if that's what is asked.


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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2010, 04:22:46 PM »

Offline Chris

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.
 

I guess it depends on your definition of washed up.  However, I don't think he got the MLE off past accomplishments.  Yes, 20/10 is gone by, but those are max contract numbers, not MLE numbers. 

Last year he averaged 8.4 points, 4.6 rebounds, and 1.8 blocks per game in 24 minutes.  Sadly, in today's NBA, those are MLE numbers.




I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but they're not accurate.

 Jermaine is far from washed up. He's a well above average defensive center. Last year, he started in 70 games for the heat and averaged 14 pts 7 rbs and 1.5 blocks all while shooting a career high 53% from the floor. Of course Jermaine isn't the player he was 5 years ago (but neither are KG, PP, Ray, or Shaq), but he's still a very useful and well above average NBA player.

You're right.  They seemed awfully low.  Apparently on NBA.com, they are defaulting to preseason numbers.  

But the point remains.  He was paid based on his current production (and is in fact probably underpaid), not his past.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2010, 05:01:38 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I also love the argument saying JO has no lift... And Big Baby does? I dont care if JO can dunk more than Baby but on the defensive end JO can get up to block and effect shots, Baby doesnt have that ability. The length of JO and Shaq are going to help us greatly this season. Many fans on this board greatly underestimate JO and he seems to be unfairly judged by his playoff performance this past season. JO has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, yet, he has proven he can put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game. He is only 32. Yes he came out of High School so he has some mileage on him, but he is far from being a washed up journeyman.

Jermaine *is* a washed up journeyman at this point, and he got his MLE deal based off past accomplishments, not based on his actual value.  The days of 20/10 and 2 blocks are long gone, buddy, don't bring that up; it's not germane (or Jermaine) anymore.


  20/10 and 2 blocks is worth a lot more than the MLE. Danny paid him for what they expect over the next 2 years. He's getting reasonable money for his worth.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2010, 05:08:16 PM »

Offline 2short

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Jermaine isn't my favorite player in the world by I do believe EXCEPT the low post defense he is a much better center than Perk.

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2010, 05:43:15 PM »

Offline mmbaby

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From what I've seen so far and I've watched every preseason game, JO doesn't look like anything to me. He hasn't shown anything, though could in the future.
But I have to agree that his injury problem looks bad.
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Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2010, 06:22:34 PM »

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I agree with some that this getting too personal.  I don't get the love or hate from some people for him.  With some people, you'd think Baby was related.  With others, you'd think he stole their girlfriend.

My point has been, and always will be this: Baby is probably our most tradeable asset right now.  We can't afford to trade any of our Big Three, there's no way we're trading Rondo, and we'll get pennies on the dollar for either O'Neal at their respective points of their career.  That leaves our youngsters (Bradley, Erden and Hangarody) who have yet to prove anything, and Marquis, West, and Nate.  However, Daniels has had mega injury problems and couldn't get better than the LLE this summer, West couldn't get better than a non-guaranteed deal, and Nate is a potential locker room problem in a weaker locker room.  None by themselves are going to command any value.

Baby, however, is young, has showed some promise in the playoffs, and has a reasonable, expiring deal.  

Would I definitely trade him?  No.  I'd see how Daniels plays out as the backup 3 and how our depth holds up at the 4/5.  But if we're sitting in February with 5 healthy big men and Daniels unable to guard 3s, I wouldn't hesitate to trade him.  

And while some would argue that he's better than Jermaine O'Neal, it ultimately doesn't matter.  If Perk and Shaq are healthy, all we need is a PF to backup KG for 15 mpg in the playoffs.  Even if JO is a disappointment (and it's absurdly premature to say that at this point), he's perfectly capable of doing that.  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 07:36:01 PM by Jon »

Re: So who do we get for big baby now?
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2010, 06:54:18 PM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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I also think it is too early to think of trading Davis.  You only trade him for value.  Right now his value is backing up KG.  I just think that he could be a starter on another team, he will want more money after this season, he probably will not be a starter for the Celts.  Harangody may well mature into a Glen Davis type player...at less money.  A trade might be the answer to getting some value back for him...or a sign and trade (depending on the demand...the last time he negotiated for a new contract, the sign and trade didn't work out too well, neither did a trade...because, no matter how good he is, he is undersized for Power Forward and until he finds a way to compete with the big men inside, he will be limited in value.)  On the other hand, who wouldn't want a backup with his skill and effort on their team?  He will just want (and probably deserve) too much money for a second or third team backup.  When Perk comes back we are going to be ridiculously deep in big men.
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