Author Topic: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals  (Read 36842 times)

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Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2010, 05:44:50 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Okay, Nick is going to dodge that one, which is not surprising.

Actually I had real life stuff to deal with and have been AFK.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2010, 05:46:28 PM »

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IP, what does Chicago's second unit look like? Whenever LeBron is resting.

I presume they'll be playing against Haslem + Scola and Barbosa will also be out there. Plus two of their wings.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2010, 05:48:06 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Okay, Nick is going to dodge that one, which is not surprising.

Here is something to think about:

If Chicago overwhelmingly won the first overall seed, meaning it had the most regular season wins, wouldn't it follow that a lot of these issues worked themselves out over the season?

For instance:

Quote
2. The Bulls have possibly the worst bench in the league and given that they have three of the top 51 highest ranked players in fouls per minute(Noah 51st, Ilyasova 17th, Amundson 11th) they are going to get into foul problems and their bench can't pick up the slack.

3. The Boxers have championship(six NBA championships) experience and veterans that have accomplished great things internationally(Olympic and FIBA gold medals, Euroleague Final Fours MVPs). The Bulls have one championship ring winner, a guy that got benched for the playoffs when his team won the championship(Allen) and are relying heavily on second year players, rookies, and players playing in roles they just are not used to playing in (Ilyasova starting, Amundson as a first big off the bench)

If my squad managed the first overall seed by a VERY healthy margin, wouldn't it follow that these issues (overcoming early foul problems, adjusting to new roles, etc) worked themselves out over the previous 86+ games or so? Remember these playoffs aren't happening in September. Its happening in May, after Ersan Ilyasova and Louis Amundson have spent the entire year in new roles. They must have figured out how to be okay in them, or else the Bulls would not have won so many games.

Basically what I'm saying is that these issues of Nick's (new roles, Ersan's foul-prone tendencies) are issues that would've had to work themselves out, and in a positive manner.

Otherwise why were the Bulls the best team in the conference? They're not going to just suddenly fall apart and forget what they'd been doing during the season, and Nick isn't presenting anything revolutionary. In fact, he's kind of dodging nearly every argument that is challenging him while I'm running around like a chicken wiht my head cut off trying to address issues from GM's who haven't made up their minds.

Fact: LeBron has not ever been beaten in the playoffs by anything other than an utterly elite NBA team, if not the best defensive team in the league.

Fact: You all looked at the other teams in the conference and voted Chicago first. You can say "I didn't believe they were a 1 seed, I had them at 3" or whatever, but the fact is, we finished first, and with a large margin which means we won the most games.

Fact: If this were the real NBA, a lot of the reservations people have about Ersan Ilyasova or Louis Amundson or Mike MIller would have been sorted out, and for the better if this team was a legitimate #1 seed. And, since this team won the #1 seed easily, I don't see a real choice there.
Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and get them to a championship?

No wait. Don't answer that. Let me rephrase the question.

Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and even get them into the Finals?

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #138 on: September 16, 2010, 05:54:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Who, my intention was always to keep Bynum and Ginobili in when Greene goes to the 4 with the small ball lineup. They have to be in the game for that lineup to work properly.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2010, 05:55:59 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Okay, Nick is going to dodge that one, which is not surprising.

Here is something to think about:

If Chicago overwhelmingly won the first overall seed, meaning it had the most regular season wins, wouldn't it follow that a lot of these issues worked themselves out over the season?

For instance:

Quote
2. The Bulls have possibly the worst bench in the league and given that they have three of the top 51 highest ranked players in fouls per minute(Noah 51st, Ilyasova 17th, Amundson 11th) they are going to get into foul problems and their bench can't pick up the slack.

3. The Boxers have championship(six NBA championships) experience and veterans that have accomplished great things internationally(Olympic and FIBA gold medals, Euroleague Final Fours MVPs). The Bulls have one championship ring winner, a guy that got benched for the playoffs when his team won the championship(Allen) and are relying heavily on second year players, rookies, and players playing in roles they just are not used to playing in (Ilyasova starting, Amundson as a first big off the bench)

If my squad managed the first overall seed by a VERY healthy margin, wouldn't it follow that these issues (overcoming early foul problems, adjusting to new roles, etc) worked themselves out over the previous 86+ games or so? Remember these playoffs aren't happening in September. Its happening in May, after Ersan Ilyasova and Louis Amundson have spent the entire year in new roles. They must have figured out how to be okay in them, or else the Bulls would not have won so many games.

Basically what I'm saying is that these issues of Nick's (new roles, Ersan's foul-prone tendencies) are issues that would've had to work themselves out, and in a positive manner.

Otherwise why were the Bulls the best team in the conference? They're not going to just suddenly fall apart and forget what they'd been doing during the season, and Nick isn't presenting anything revolutionary. In fact, he's kind of dodging nearly every argument that is challenging him while I'm running around like a chicken wiht my head cut off trying to address issues from GM's who haven't made up their minds.

Fact: LeBron has not ever been beaten in the playoffs by anything other than an utterly elite NBA team, if not the best defensive team in the league.

Fact: You all looked at the other teams in the conference and voted Chicago first. You can say "I didn't believe they were a 1 seed, I had them at 3" or whatever, but the fact is, we finished first, and with a large margin which means we won the most games.

Fact: If this were the real NBA, a lot of the reservations people have about Ersan Ilyasova or Louis Amundson or Mike MIller would have been sorted out, and for the better if this team was a legitimate #1 seed. And, since this team won the #1 seed easily, I don't see a real choice there.
Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and get them to a championship?

No wait. Don't answer that. Let me rephrase the question.

Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and even get them into the Finals?


Does not having an allstar calibre player ever get a team to the conference finals?

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #140 on: September 16, 2010, 05:57:45 PM »

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Who, my intention was always to keep Bynum and Ginobili in when Greene goes to the 4 with the small ball lineup. They have to be in the game for that lineup to work properly.
What type of combinations or lineups do you think you'll use while Ginobili rests?

Will Ginobili or Bynum play in your second unit?

-------------------------------------

Edit: I imagine Bynum's and Noah's minutes will be as synced up as possible. Noah will play 37-38 minutes a night in this series and hopefully Bynum can do 36-38mpg too.

That leaves 10-12 minutes per game while Bynum rests where Manu presumably plays to keep the team afloat. So while Manu rests, Bynum plays. Manu can give your team 35-37 minutes a night so he'll need 11-13mpg rest. So there is 21-24 minutes a game where only one of the two will be on the court + 24-27 minutes a game where they are together.

The Ginobili lineup would have Scola and Haslem in it and some combination of guards / wings (many different possibilities there). 

But what does the Bynum led lineup look like? That lineup might have some difficulty with Ginobili resting.

Edit: I suppose you could go without either player for 3-4 minutes a half (only when LeBron rests and I am guessing he's playing 42-44mpg in this series) + give another few minutes with just one of them (Manu, Bynum) on the court.

Scola and Haslem give a solid enough foundation for the rest of the lineup. Felton would need to play there for some creativity (dribble penetration, playmaking). A little short on offense which Barbosa could add but he also creates defense / rebounding issues (I don't trust him against TA's defense either) ... might be better to stay big on the wing with Budinger and someone.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 06:15:39 PM by Who »

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #141 on: September 16, 2010, 06:22:41 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Okay, Nick is going to dodge that one, which is not surprising.

Here is something to think about:

If Chicago overwhelmingly won the first overall seed, meaning it had the most regular season wins, wouldn't it follow that a lot of these issues worked themselves out over the season?

For instance:

Quote
2. The Bulls have possibly the worst bench in the league and given that they have three of the top 51 highest ranked players in fouls per minute(Noah 51st, Ilyasova 17th, Amundson 11th) they are going to get into foul problems and their bench can't pick up the slack.

3. The Boxers have championship(six NBA championships) experience and veterans that have accomplished great things internationally(Olympic and FIBA gold medals, Euroleague Final Fours MVPs). The Bulls have one championship ring winner, a guy that got benched for the playoffs when his team won the championship(Allen) and are relying heavily on second year players, rookies, and players playing in roles they just are not used to playing in (Ilyasova starting, Amundson as a first big off the bench)

If my squad managed the first overall seed by a VERY healthy margin, wouldn't it follow that these issues (overcoming early foul problems, adjusting to new roles, etc) worked themselves out over the previous 86+ games or so? Remember these playoffs aren't happening in September. Its happening in May, after Ersan Ilyasova and Louis Amundson have spent the entire year in new roles. They must have figured out how to be okay in them, or else the Bulls would not have won so many games.

Basically what I'm saying is that these issues of Nick's (new roles, Ersan's foul-prone tendencies) are issues that would've had to work themselves out, and in a positive manner.

Otherwise why were the Bulls the best team in the conference? They're not going to just suddenly fall apart and forget what they'd been doing during the season, and Nick isn't presenting anything revolutionary. In fact, he's kind of dodging nearly every argument that is challenging him while I'm running around like a chicken wiht my head cut off trying to address issues from GM's who haven't made up their minds.

Fact: LeBron has not ever been beaten in the playoffs by anything other than an utterly elite NBA team, if not the best defensive team in the league.

Fact: You all looked at the other teams in the conference and voted Chicago first. You can say "I didn't believe they were a 1 seed, I had them at 3" or whatever, but the fact is, we finished first, and with a large margin which means we won the most games.

Fact: If this were the real NBA, a lot of the reservations people have about Ersan Ilyasova or Louis Amundson or Mike MIller would have been sorted out, and for the better if this team was a legitimate #1 seed. And, since this team won the #1 seed easily, I don't see a real choice there.
Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and get them to a championship?

No wait. Don't answer that. Let me rephrase the question.

Did winning the #1 seed sort out the deficiencies of the real life Cavs over the past two years and even get them into the Finals?

No, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

My point, my only point, is that if Chicago overwhelmingly got the 1 seed (which they did. agreed?), that would mean a lot went right for them this season.

You point out two things; you point out that Ersan Ilyasova and Louis Amundson are playing in new roles, implying that not only will they not be comfortable there, their minute by minute production should suffer.

My point is that if Chicago overwhelmingly got the #1 seed, they're a 60 win team, minimum. They're #1 in the power rankings, they're way ahead in the +/- differential, Hollinger loves them, blah blah blah.

While that kind of success can't be used to suggest that Noah develops Hakeem's post game out of nowhere, I think, in the same way that you have to assume Bynum is on the court for your squad, that Ersan Ilyasova is comfortable now in his role as a starter, Amundson is comfortable in his role as 1st big off the bench, and Mike Miller has embraced his role as shooter first, everything else second.

I mean, if you can't make those kinds of judgements I'd just keep harping on the fact that Bynum hasn't finished a season healthy in 3 years, and there is no way he's healthy now.

Who, do you think Bynum is 100% to finish the season? I see KCattheStripe up there...KC, you think Bynum stays healthy all season and is 100% in the playoffs consider he hasn't finished the season in full health since Bush was president?

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2010, 06:26:57 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Who, do you think Bynum is 100% to finish the season? I see KCattheStripe up there...KC, you think Bynum stays healthy all season and is 100% in the playoffs consider he hasn't finished the season in full health since Bush was president?

Nope, I am skeptical of big men without bounce back seasons from leg injuries. It's why one of the reasons I voted against Nick this round and for him the last one and why I voted for Sacramento this round. I don't think Bynum, Yao or Oden are ever going to be fully healthy again.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2010, 06:28:28 PM »

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Who, do you think Bynum is 100% to finish the season? I see KCattheStripe up there...KC, you think Bynum stays healthy all season and is 100% in the playoffs consider he hasn't finished the season in full health since Bush was president?
I have no idea ... but for the purposes of my vote, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2010, 06:30:26 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Okay, Nick is going to dodge that one, which is not surprising.

Actually I had real life stuff to deal with and have been AFK.


psssssssssh "Real life"! I spent a day in real life after my unceremonious trouncing, it was overrated.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #145 on: September 16, 2010, 06:32:34 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Also, for everyone who hasn't voted yet: here again, is the stat line for LeBron James vs Wilson Chandler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=chandwi01

7 games:

LeBron: 35ppg, 7.1reb, 7.9ast
Chandler: 10.1ppg, 4.6reb, 2.4ast

Nick has no answers for that. Not even the thought of an answer, or a way to slow it down.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2010, 06:36:41 PM »

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Washington's Team Defense

Bynum + Scola = very good defense
Bynum + Haslem = excellent team defense
Scola + Haslem = league average team defense

There is a good combination of defensive talent on the perimeter so coupling them up with the bigs shouldn't be much of an issue.

A small backcourt (Felton, Barbosa) with the small frontcourt (Scola, Haslem) would make them vulnerable. As would Ginobili and Budinger on the wings while LeBron is on the floor. Outside of those two, the perimeter combinations should stay in line with the bigs.

A Ginobili + Chandler + Greene perimeter combo would upgrade the team defense considerably. I would be interested to see how Jennings handles an athlete like Chandler or Greene with Bynum back in the paint ready to alter his shot. Force Jennings to shoot jumpers. A lot more length and size playing the passing lanes on LeBron's drive + kicks too. Making his life more difficult also.

Chicago's Team Defense

LeBron + Ilyasova + Noah = excellent defense
TA (PG/SG/SF) + LeBron (PF) + Noah = excellent defense
TA / LeBron + Amundson + Noah = excellent defense

TA + Ilyasova + Amundson = league average or slightly below
TA + LeBron (PF) + Amundson =

Chicago's perimeter players swing the evaluation more than Washington's. Maynor is weak defender who would hurt a lineup considerably. As is Mike Miller. Those two together would hurt of the later trio's considerably. Lawal or Asik instead of Ilyasova would drop them further.

Jennings is solid defensively and should be on the floor whenever Noah is not + especially whenever LeBron isn't. The lack of wings means that Mike Miller has to be on the floor when LeBron is resting or playing the four spot. So Jennings, TA, Miller, LeBron/Ilyasova and Amundson. That should be a average defensive unit (without LeBron) + good with LeBron at the four.

Of course, Amundson at center creates vulnerabilities so that lineup's defensive effectiveness could vary a great deal depending on opponent lineups. So long as there isn't a major threat (interior scorer) there, they should be a solid defensive unit though.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #147 on: September 16, 2010, 06:37:34 PM »

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Also, for everyone who hasn't voted yet: here again, is the stat line for LeBron James vs Wilson Chandler:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=chandwi01

7 games:

LeBron: 35ppg, 7.1reb, 7.9ast
Chandler: 10.1ppg, 4.6reb, 2.4ast

Nick has no answers for that. Not even the thought of an answer, or a way to slow it down.
Wilson Chandler will do a lot better with Bynum, Scola and Haslem standing behind him ... than he did with D'Antoni's New York Knicks.

Which I think Nick said earlier in one of his responses.

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2010, 06:40:28 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Who, do you think Bynum is 100% to finish the season? I see KCattheStripe up there...KC, you think Bynum stays healthy all season and is 100% in the playoffs consider he hasn't finished the season in full health since Bush was president?
I have no idea ... but for the purposes of my vote, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Then here is my question: Are you also giving Ilyasova and Jennings the benefit of the doubt, assuming they do well in their new roles, and they improve as players?

Because Bynum has been hurt 3 years in a row, and Jennings + Ilyasova would logically improve..as Ilyasova has already shown he's drastically improved since his first tour of duty.

For Ilyasova: After one year of defending PF's full time, wouldn't he get stronger, better at it? Wouldn't he because a more efficient shooter?

Wouldn't Jennings improve as a scorer, and get a bit better a picking his shots?

You're saying Bynum's production will improve, but I feel like you're not making the same leaps with the Bulls.

Not to say I think I'm not getting a fair shake, I do...I'm just saying we've been talking about this thing for so long over the same points, I feel like we're leaving things out.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: CB Draft '10 Playoffs Eastern Conference Semi-Finals
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2010, 06:41:51 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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Washington's Team Defense

Bynum + Scola = very good defense
Bynum + Haslem = excellent team defense
Scola + Haslem = league average team defense

There is a good combination of defensive talent on the perimeter so coupling them up with the bigs shouldn't be much of an issue.

A small backcourt (Felton, Barbosa) with the small frontcourt (Scola, Haslem) would make them vulnerable. As would Ginobili and Budinger on the wings while LeBron is on the floor. Outside of those two, the perimeter combinations should stay in line with the bigs.

A Ginobili + Chandler + Greene perimeter combo would upgrade the team defense considerably. I would be interested to see how Jennings handles an athlete like Chandler or Greene with Bynum back in the paint ready to alter his shot. Force Jennings to shoot jumpers. A lot more length and size playing the passing lanes on LeBron's drive + kicks too. Making his life more difficult also.

Chicago's Team Defense

LeBron + Ilyasova + Noah = excellent defense
TA (PG/SG/SF) + LeBron (PF) + Noah = excellent defense
TA / LeBron + Amundson + Noah = excellent defense

TA + Ilyasova + Amundson = league average or slightly below
TA + LeBron (PF) + Amundson =

Chicago's perimeter players swing the evaluation more than Washington's. Maynor is weak defender who would hurt a lineup considerably. As is Mike Miller. Those two together would hurt of the later trio's considerably. Lawal or Asik instead of Ilyasova would drop them further.

Jennings is solid defensively and should be on the floor whenever Noah is not + especially whenever LeBron isn't. The lack of wings means that Mike Miller has to be on the floor when LeBron is resting or playing the four spot. So Jennings, TA, Miller, LeBron/Ilyasova and Amundson. That should be a average defensive unit (without LeBron) + good with LeBron at the four.

Of course, Amundson at center creates vulnerabilities so that lineup's defensive effectiveness could vary a great deal depending on opponent lineups. So long as there isn't a major threat (interior scorer) there, they should be a solid defensive unit though.

Sooo....Chicago is the better defensive team, assuming Noah covers Bynum whenever Bynum is on the floor?

BTW: Thats a lot of text for matchup that isn't yours, and its not the first time. Thanks on behalf of both Nick and I for putting so much time into it.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner