CB Draft '10 Playoffs First Round Eastern Conference

[indeedproceed]

I just see the starting lineup your putting out there to be the recipe for a Kobe Blowup.  He is surrounded by offensively deficient players at 3 out of 4 positions and none of those players can move the ball.   I think i see alot of games where kobe refuses to shoot and just passes to make a point.

During the regular season that's a valid point, but do you honestly think Kobe is going to literally throw a game away in the playoffs? Would he shoot his team out of one by trying to do too much? Sure. He might even lay off on the defensive side out of frustration. But he won't just pass to make a point.

Would a Game 7 count as the playoffs?

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.baldwin/2006/05/11/kobe_bryant_s_game_7_no_shot_pout_the_mo

Haha...you mean the exact same game I highlighted to show that LeBron isn't the only person around that people have accused of quitting?

Do you even read my posts, roy?

No, in all seriousness, I think that Kobe has proven now that he is beyond that. At least to me. A lot of people have talked about how he's matured as a player in the last 3 years (magically since he started winning again).

[action781]

I just see the starting lineup your putting out there to be the recipe for a Kobe Blowup.  He is surrounded by offensively deficient players at 3 out of 4 positions and none of those players can move the ball.   I think i see alot of games where kobe refuses to shoot and just passes to make a point.

During the regular season that's a valid point, but do you honestly think Kobe is going to literally throw a game away in the playoffs? Would he shoot his team out of one by trying to do too much? Sure. He might even lay off on the defensive side out of frustration. But he won't just pass to make a point.

Would a Game 7 count as the playoffs?

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.baldwin/2006/05/11/kobe_bryant_s_game_7_no_shot_pout_the_mo

My only answer for this was it was 2006.  Lebron did it in 2010.  They are both still the best 2 players in the NBA and not a single one of you would want somebody else to lead your made up team into the playoffs based purely on wanting to win.

[indeedproceed]

I just see the starting lineup your putting out there to be the recipe for a Kobe Blowup.  He is surrounded by offensively deficient players at 3 out of 4 positions and none of those players can move the ball.   I think i see alot of games where kobe refuses to shoot and just passes to make a point.

During the regular season that's a valid point, but do you honestly think Kobe is going to literally throw a game away in the playoffs? Would he shoot his team out of one by trying to do too much? Sure. He might even lay off on the defensive side out of frustration. But he won't just pass to make a point.

Would a Game 7 count as the playoffs?

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.baldwin/2006/05/11/kobe_bryant_s_game_7_no_shot_pout_the_mo

My only answer for this was it was 2006.  Lebron did it in 2010.  They are both still the best 2 players in the NBA and not a single one of you would want somebody else to lead your made up team into the playoffs based purely on wanting to win.

Josh McRoberts. He wants to win so bad he can't even bring himself to play during games. He's just that scared of messing it up.

[KCattheStripe]

I just see the starting lineup your putting out there to be the recipe for a Kobe Blowup.  He is surrounded by offensively deficient players at 3 out of 4 positions and none of those players can move the ball.   I think i see alot of games where kobe refuses to shoot and just passes to make a point.

He can pass it all he wants!!  I want him to pass!  He will dump it down to Marc Gasol often and his 58% fg% and let him work.  Gasol will also be able to set up teammates for open looks.

p.s. Just curious as to how much all of you have seen Gasol play recently.  If you haven't, you shouldn't talk down on him too strongly or you won't look too smart.  The guy is already a pretty serious low post threat and still improving.  He can isolate, score efficiently, and has incredible court vision.

I've watched him 100+ times the past two years and you are indulging in some hyperbole. He is a moderate low post threat with a lot of upside. No real counter move yet. He does well if you Iso him in the post, but all he has outside there is a moderately effective jumpshot. His court vision is pretty good.

A very Solid Center with All Star Potential, but he's not Hakeem.

[indeedproceed]

Here is the vote I intend to make around 11 or so (at the latest)

Chicago over Charlattle-nobody is talking me out of this one. Charlattle's GM is just a horrible person and deserves to lose. And he smells like moose fewmets.

Milwaukee over Indiana-Rip Hamilton can't hold back Kobe, but everyone else is either substantially better or just good enough. Substantially better in Nowitzki and Kidd's case, just good enough in Gortat's.

Atlanta over Orlando-this one I am most open to changing. I see the teams as very, very evenly matched.

Washington over NYK-I think talent-wise, NY is the better team, but questions about Oden's development, Washington's pretty persuasive arguments for their home squad, and my hunger to listen to Nick tell the world how overrated Ersan Ilyasova is next round prevail.

Indiana and Orlando, if you got something else for me, lets see it now.

[action781]

I'll reiterate:

J-Kidd vs. Fisher

J-Kidd = better all around player will out rebound and pass better than Fisher, never once amazed me in playoffs
Fisher = inferior talentwise to Kidd; ultimate role player/glue guy, IMO (which I've shown sufficiently with stats that no one has yet clearly refuted) will be a better and more efficient scorer; incredibly clutch in playoffs; steady hand, low turnovers never makes bad decisions

Kobe vs. Rip

Come on.

Pietrus/Korver vs. Maggette/Barnes

The object here is to keep Maggette outside.  All he wants to do is drive and is a poor shooter.  Pietrus has the tools to stay in front of him and keep him out there.  Korver, less so.  Korver will hopefully play more when Barnes is in the game.  If not, we put Kobe on Maggette and Korver on Rip/Miles.

Thomas/Maxiell vs. Dirk/Wright

Thomas will need to play heavy minutes here as I think he has a better shot at guarding Dirk than Maxiell.  Maxiell will need to play some minutes on him though and will be very physical with him at the time.  When Dirk sits and Wright comes in, so does Maxiell to be physical and dominate him on the o-boards.

Gasol vs. Gortat

Gortat is good, I do like him.  As a bench player.  Gasol is just a much better and more refined player.  We will go to him often.  Gortat has never had significant playing time.  The most considerable time would be in the '10 playoffs, when he played 15.1 mpg.  But then, he only averaged 3.0ppg!  He has never averaged over 4.0 ppg.  If you thought Kobe was an Indy advantage, and Dirk is a Bucks advantage, how about the 8-14 nightly point advantage that Indy could be getting at the C position??  I could see an occasional Gasol - 20, Gortat - 6 point lines at the end of some games.  As a matter of fact, in the only 4 games of the '10 playoffs where Gortat logged 20+ minutes, he scored 2, 6, 5, and 2 points!!

[KCattheStripe]

Here is the vote I intend to make around 11 or so (at the latest)

Chicago over Charlattle-nobody is talking me out of this one. Charlattle's GM is just a horrible person and deserves to lose. And he smells like moose fewmets.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1iqJqNHX_g

[action781]

Milwaukee over Indiana-Rip Hamilton can't hold back Kobe, but everyone else is either substantially better or just good enough. Substantially better in Nowitzki and Kidd's case, just good enough in Gortat's.

This is what I got for you, IP.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/marcin_gortat/game_by_game_stats.html

It's Gortat's 2010 game log.

There were 22 games in which he logged 20+ minutes (what Milwaukee expects from him).  Only TWICE all season and postseason did he score 10+ points!  Only 4 times did he grab 10+ boards (his biggest asset).

Gasol averaged 14.6ppg and 9.3rpg.  Look at his game log.  Double digit scoring or rebound games are almost routine for him.  How can you say that Gortat's production even sniffs the jockstrap of Gasol's?

How can this be counted on?  Gortat is a bench player.  Gasol is a quality starting Center.  The amount Gasol outplays Gortat by is going to rival how much Kobe outplays Rip by.  I cannot emphasize this enough:  I'm not joking.  There is absolutely no way on earth to show the contrary.

[indeedproceed]

I'll reiterate:

J-Kidd vs. Fisher

J-Kidd = better all around player will out rebound and pass better than Fisher, never once amazed me in playoffs
Fisher = inferior talentwise to Kidd; ultimate role player/glue guy, IMO (which I've shown sufficiently with stats that no one has yet clearly refuted) will be a better and more efficient scorer; incredibly clutch in playoffs; steady hand, low turnovers never makes bad decisions

I see your reasoning with Fisher, but understand this is like saying you'd rather have an aging Robert Horry playing starting power forward than have an aging Chris Webber. In fact, its almost exactly like that. How come you didn't say that, Rondo?

Kobe vs. Rip

Come on.

Fair enough.

Pietrus/Korver vs. Maggette/Barnes

The object here is to keep Maggette outside.  All he wants to do is drive and is a poor shooter.  Pietrus has the tools to stay in front of him and keep him out there.  Korver, less so.  Korver will hopefully play more when Barnes is in the game.  If not, we put Kobe on Maggette and Korver on Rip/Miles.

I'm not ready to say you win the Maggette argument, but this matchup I'm open on. Maggette is a notorious ball hog who rebounds, and Pietrus isn't losing and height or reach, or really athleticism to him.

Show me something about Pietrus I don't already know.

Korver on Barnes, I like Korver. Korver will keep Barnes on the perimeter so any rebounding advantage Barnes has is out the window.

Thomas/Maxiell vs. Dirk/Wright

Thomas will need to play heavy minutes here as I think he has a better shot at guarding Dirk than Maxiell.  Maxiell will need to play some minutes on him though and will be very physical with him at the time.  When Dirk sits and Wright comes in, so does Maxiell to be physical and dominate him on the o-boards.

Give me anything on Thomas that will make me believe he brings something positive to your lineup. How are their H2H #'s.

Gasol vs. Gortat

Gortat is good, I do like him.  As a bench player.  Gasol is just a much better and more refined player.  We will go to him often.  Gortat has never had significant playing time.  The most considerable time would be in the '10 playoffs, when he played 15.1 mpg.  But then, he only averaged 3.0ppg!  He has never averaged over 4.0 ppg.  If you thought Kobe was an Indy advantage, and Dirk is a Bucks advantage, how about the 8-14 nightly point advantage that Indy could be getting at the C position??  I could see an occasional Gasol - 20, Gortat - 6 point lines at the end of some games.  As a matter of fact, in the only 4 games of the '10 playoffs where Gortat logged 20+ minutes, he scored 2, 6, 5, and 2 points!!

I don't think there will be anything close to a 14pt advantage slanting for Gasol. After a full year of starting where Gortat can really show what he's capable of offensively, I think he should merit a starting spot, and he'll take Gasol down a peg or two. I've come around on Gasol's playmaking abilities though. This is a pretty heavy matchup in favor of Gasol, I will concede that. How does that make your other matchups more favorable?

[action781]

I just see the starting lineup your putting out there to be the recipe for a Kobe Blowup.  He is surrounded by offensively deficient players at 3 out of 4 positions and none of those players can move the ball.   I think i see alot of games where kobe refuses to shoot and just passes to make a point.

He can pass it all he wants!!  I want him to pass!  He will dump it down to Marc Gasol often and his 58% fg% and let him work.  Gasol will also be able to set up teammates for open looks.

p.s. Just curious as to how much all of you have seen Gasol play recently.  If you haven't, you shouldn't talk down on him too strongly or you won't look too smart.  The guy is already a pretty serious low post threat and still improving.  He can isolate, score efficiently, and has incredible court vision.

I've watched him 100+ times the past two years and you are indulging in some hyperbole. He is a moderate low post threat with a lot of upside. No real counter move yet. He does well if you Iso him in the post, but all he has outside there is a moderately effective jumpshot. His court vision is pretty good.

A very Solid Center with All Star Potential, but he's not Hakeem.

By "pretty serious" I meant "moderately serious".  You know, like when a girl is "pretty hot".  She's not smoking.  Still improving?  Unquestionable.  As you agreed, he can iso well.  Score efficiently?  Unquestionable.  I guess we differ on his court vision between "incredible" and "pretty good".  Maybe "incredible" is a very strong word, but I definitely think he is one of the best among NBA bigs today passing-wise.  Fair?

I hope that clarifies things and it doesn't appear that I was overstating things.  I try to remain pretty level headed and somewhat objective in my claims.

[indeedproceed]

Here is where I am down on your team: Kobe on Rip, Kobe out plays him at every part of the game. Rip is even coming off of a really bad shooting year, where he was injured, and I'm not sure he'll ever look like he did in 2006 or so again.

Even then, I expect Rip to get quality passes that lead to open looks from Kidd, and the same benefits from Nowitzki. There is nothing I've seen from Kobe that convinces me that Rip can't get an efficent 12-14 ppg off of screens in nearly every game.

Tyrus Thomas cannot and will not get that many points on Dirk. Won't even come close.

[action781]

Pietrus/Korver vs. Maggette/Barnes

The object here is to keep Maggette outside.  All he wants to do is drive and is a poor shooter.  Pietrus has the tools to stay in front of him and keep him out there.  Korver, less so.  Korver will hopefully play more when Barnes is in the game.  If not, we put Kobe on Maggette and Korver on Rip/Miles.

I'm not ready to say you win the Maggette argument, but this matchup I'm open on. Maggette is a notorious ball hog who rebounds, and Pietrus isn't losing and height or reach, or really athleticism to him.

Show me something about Pietrus I don't already know.

Korver on Barnes, I like Korver. Korver will keep Barnes on the perimeter so any rebounding advantage Barnes has is out the window.

You probably know some of this, but a further elaboration:

Indeed, Pietrus epitomizes the "three-and-D" small forward role that Bruce Bowen made famous for the San Antonio Spurs in the early part of the last decade. He attempted 56.7% of his shots from three-point range, a split which became even more pronounced in the playoffs, when he launched 61 of his 80 shots (76.3%) from beyond the arc.

 
This guy gets open in the playoffs and drills 3 pointers.  He did it at 45.9% clip in '10 and 38.5% clip in '09.  When you think of Mickael Pietrus in the playoffs, what do you think?  I think locking down perimeter players and drilling corner 3's.  This is a fantastic player defensively for any team, but especially fantastic offensively for this team that has one player who all defenders must keep their eyes on and a second offensive player who should command some additional attention as well.

What makes him, to me, Orlando's best perimeter defender is his on-ball skills in isolation situations. Think about the league's best wing players. When they need a bucket late in a game, their coaches will abandon their set offense an instead call that player's number, and have everyone else clear out. And in these situations, Pietrus is among the best in the business. Pietrus ranked third in the entire league in defending isolations at the top of the key, allowing 0.647 points per possession. Opponents scored on just 30.9% of their possessions when matched up against Pietrus there.

Pietrus' defense quantified.

http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/6/6/1503041/evaluating-mickael-pietrus


He is the modern day Bruce Bowen except he's athletic, can take it to the rim, and score 10+ ppg if given the playing time that he will get in Indiana.

[indeedproceed]

Pietrus/Korver vs. Maggette/Barnes

The object here is to keep Maggette outside.  All he wants to do is drive and is a poor shooter.  Pietrus has the tools to stay in front of him and keep him out there.  Korver, less so.  Korver will hopefully play more when Barnes is in the game.  If not, we put Kobe on Maggette and Korver on Rip/Miles.

I'm not ready to say you win the Maggette argument, but this matchup I'm open on. Maggette is a notorious ball hog who rebounds, and Pietrus isn't losing and height or reach, or really athleticism to him.

Show me something about Pietrus I don't already know.

Korver on Barnes, I like Korver. Korver will keep Barnes on the perimeter so any rebounding advantage Barnes has is out the window.

You probably know some of this, but a further elaboration:

Indeed, Pietrus epitomizes the "three-and-D" small forward role that Bruce Bowen made famous for the San Antonio Spurs in the early part of the last decade. He attempted 56.7% of his shots from three-point range, a split which became even more pronounced in the playoffs, when he launched 61 of his 80 shots (76.3%) from beyond the arc.

 
This guy gets open in the playoffs and drills 3 pointers.  He did it at 45.9% clip in '10 and 38.5% clip in '09.  When you think of Mickael Pietrus in the playoffs, what do you think?  I think locking down perimeter players and drilling corner 3's.  This is a fantastic player defensively for any team, but especially fantastic offensively for this team that has one player who all defenders must keep their eyes on and a second offensive player who should command some additional attention as well.

What makes him, to me, Orlando's best perimeter defender is his on-ball skills in isolation situations. Think about the league's best wing players. When they need a bucket late in a game, their coaches will abandon their set offense an instead call that player's number, and have everyone else clear out. And in these situations, Pietrus is among the best in the business. Pietrus ranked third in the entire league in defending isolations at the top of the key, allowing 0.647 points per possession. Opponents scored on just 30.9% of their possessions when matched up against Pietrus there.

Pietrus' defense quantified.

http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/6/6/1503041/evaluating-mickael-pietrus


He is the modern day Bruce Bowen except he's athletic, can take it to the rim, and score 10+ ppg if given the playing time that he will get in Indiana.

Okay, I can see why this works for Pietrus. Maggette is pretty good at creating his own shot, and he's also pretty solid at getting to the hoop, but if Pietrus can stay in front of him 2x out of 3 and keep Maggette from getting to the line too much, I'd call that pretty close to a wash.

I still don't think it compensates for Kidd/Fisher and Nowitzki/Thomas. Closer though.

Rondo, anything else to add?

[action781]

Here is where I am down on your team: Kobe on Rip, Kobe out plays him at every part of the game. Rip is even coming off of a really bad shooting year, where he was injured, and I'm not sure he'll ever look like he did in 2006 or so again.

Even then, I expect Rip to get quality passes that lead to open looks from Kidd, and the same benefits from Nowitzki. There is nothing I've seen from Kobe that convinces me that Rip can't get an efficent 12-14 ppg off of screens in nearly every game.

Tyrus Thomas cannot and will not get that many points on Dirk. Won't even come close.

Really?  Tyrus Thomas played once against Dallas last season.

http://www.nba.com/games/20100301/DALCHA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Dirk: 27 points, 13 rebounds,  12/23 shooting, 42 minutes
Ty Thomas: 16 points, 12 rebounds, 7/16 shooting, 29 minutes

Cannot and will not?  In a 7 game series?  Can and has.  In one out of one games in 2010.

p.s. Give Maxiell the other 19 minutes and he's gonna bully Milwaukee for 6 more points and 5 more boards.  That's my weakest position too.

[indeedproceed]

Here is where I am down on your team: Kobe on Rip, Kobe out plays him at every part of the game. Rip is even coming off of a really bad shooting year, where he was injured, and I'm not sure he'll ever look like he did in 2006 or so again.

Even then, I expect Rip to get quality passes that lead to open looks from Kidd, and the same benefits from Nowitzki. There is nothing I've seen from Kobe that convinces me that Rip can't get an efficent 12-14 ppg off of screens in nearly every game.

Tyrus Thomas cannot and will not get that many points on Dirk. Won't even come close.

Really?  Tyrus Thomas played once against Dallas last season.

http://www.nba.com/games/20100301/DALCHA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Dirk: 27 points, 13 rebounds,  12/23 shooting, 42 minutes
Ty Thomas: 16 points, 12 rebounds, 7/16 shooting, 29 minutes

Cannot and will not?  In a 7 game series?  Can and has.  In one out of one games in 2010.

p.s. Give Maxiell the other 19 minutes and he's gonna bully Milwaukee for 6 more points and 5 more boards.  That's my weakest position too.

That was unexpected. Really, I did not expect that.

Over the 7 games of their careers, Dirk is scoring at a clip of 28 points to 9 vs Thomas, and has had 2 bad shooting games.

But in the last 2 games played, Thomas has scored 23 points and 12, respectively, and gotten 12 rebounds in both.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=thomaty01

That is honestly a lot closer than I thought.

EDIT: But I wouldn't give those 19 mins to Maxiell, at least not on Dirk. He won't stop Dirk from owning the midrange. Can't bother his shot.