Official Discuss your CB Draft team

[Who]

Chicago, definitely not number 1.  I think you're overrating Noah a tad, and Miller is pretty bad, although you do have Tony behind him (who will take away space for LeBron on offense).  Overall I say you have 2 great defenders in Noah and James, 2 good defenders in Jennings and Ilyasova, and 1 poor defender with Miller.

As for Utah, they'll be good if Yao is healthy.  But they also have a hole in their defense with Calderon.  I would say they have 3 great defenders in Yao, Gasol, and Mbah a Moute, 1 good defender in Casspi, and 1 poor defender in Calderon.

Clippers?  No holes.  3 great defenders in Wallace, KG, and Marion.  2 good defenders in J-Rich and Chauncey.  Easily the best starting 5 defensively.  And I don't think anyone's bench is gonna make up that difference.

And IP, Reggie Evans and Ben Wallace are never going to be on the court at the same time.

Neither Wallace, KG or Marion is a great defender anymore.

I completely disagree.

Agreed -- Garnett is still a great defender + Marion had his best defensive season in years and was one of the best wing defenders in the NBA last season. Surprisingly so, at least to me, I thought Marion's days as an elite defender where behind him after his performances in Toronto, Miami and final half a season in Phoenix.

I thought Ben Wallace's defense dropped off considerably last season in Detroit when he didn't have a fellow big man to play off of defensively. Someone who is strong and physical and capable of taking the tougher one-on-one assignments freeing up Big Ben to be more of a roamer defensively. I wonder a bit about him and KG, there is a lot of overlap there in skill-set and need. They'll still work very well together but I wonder if there is a bit of diminishing returns there.

[action781]

IP, a few comments.

1.  Nice effort put in there, a very good read.

2.  You did a great job in 99.5% of your post in leaving out first names for obvious players like Kleiza, Calderon, etc while putting in a first name or initial where there could be any ambiguity.  Your 0.5% was on your own team with "Allen"!  I was scratching my head for 2 minutes trying to figure out who your 3rd string SG "Allen" was haha.

3.  I agree with Roy that you overrate Noah.  Elite?  What defines elite?  I think in a class far and away better than most in sports (although my dictionary simply says "considered to be the best").  I'd put Noah behind Howard, Perkins, Duncan, Camby, and maybe a healthy Yao.  Bogut is up with him there too, maybe Nene also?  He finished tied for 5th with Perk in the all defensive voting.  The fact that you will never find a majority of a population to rank him in the top 6 does not qualify him as "elite" in my mind.  Dwight Howard is elite; Noah is not.

4.  I agree (where some responders disagreed) with you IP that Miller actually is not a "bad" defender.  Just not good.  Slightly below average, but not bad.

5.  I also disagree with KC.  I think KG is still a great defender.  Look what he did to Beasley, Jamison, and Lewis in the postseason.  While Pau still put up good overall numbers, the Finals was the only postseason series that Pau was held to less than 50% shooting.

5.  You acknowledged on my team Ty Thomas' potential but mentioned him being an overrated defender.  Yet when it comes to Jrue Holliday and Demarcus Cousins, you based their defense solely on potential and you are confident putting that team in the top 5 with the 2 of them as starters.  I'd argue that Ty Thomas' defensive potential at LSU (drafted #4 overall) was greater than or equal to Cousins' at Kentucky.  And look how you view Thomas now.  I think because of that, you should temper your opinions of Cousins - a guy with question marks surrounding his maturity and effort.

6.  Indiana Pacers plug alert!!!    In all seriousness, I'm only commenting on this based on what you previously said about my team and want to check to see your thoughts.  You acknowledged that I have an average, at worst, defensive PG.  A means to help him with 8x all-defensive team Kobe.  I have who I think is a lock down perimeter defender in Pietrus.  If Noah is "elite" placing tied for 5th in all-defensive rankings, then Marc Gasol has to be at least above average since he placed tied for 8th?  If you are going to consider Cousins "skies the limit potential", can you give 24 year old Ty Thomas an "average" on a new team?  If you can, then I have 3 above average starting defenders (including 1 first teamer) and 2 average ones.  Hope I could at least be in the discussion considering that, even if not landing in the top 5.

[Rondo2287]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9SUmH5X4g


Caution, the abusive images in this video may offend other teams forwards.

[KCattheStripe]

I'm gonna throw this out there: Do you really have to be an elite defender to shut down this years versions of Beasley, Jameson or Lewis?

[indeedproceed]

action good comments. regarding noah, I will revisit that tomorrow when im at work.

regarding ty thomas...he's 24, but been in the league what, 5 years? he's already been traded once for peanuts because of his attitude.

and before then, he was still 6'9 on a good day with the gifts to be a good defender ala shown marion or josh smith...but never the drive. he's too unskilled to play the 3 and too  soft to play the 4.

cousins on the other hand is nearly 7 feet coming off  a season where he led the ncaa in boards (correct if im wrong) ty thomas can't touch his hype now..his story is simply too far told.

jrue holiday outplayed iverson and lou williams last season, and he managed to keep him mouth shut about it when he was benched. that alone tells me he's more evolved  than thomas.

[action781]

Semantic alert!!

Should we try to find a way to make certain blanket descriptions like "elite" "average" and "above average" more verifiable?  I know everybody has their own opinions on how players relate to one another and that's fine.  But at least can we agree on what these adjectives mean when we use them so confidently?  For instance, if IP thinks Noah is the 2nd best defensive center in the NBA, that's fine, that's his opinion.  But if he reasonably ( ) thinks he's more like top 6, can we agree that's not exactly elite? 

Here are my thoughts:

Elite:  I like my dictionary's definition simply stating "a group considered to be the best".  In my opinion, only Dwight Howard is an elite defensive center.  He is also the only elite overall center.  I think CP3, Deron, and Rondo are the only elite defensive PGs.  They are the best and in a class clearly above the rest.  When it comes to overall players, I consider there to be 5 indisputable elite players Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Howard in that order.  Are you going to find more than 20% of an unbiased population that will disagree with those 5 players regardless of order?  (BTW, interesting fact:  The order of those 5 players being drafted in our league went exactly as they finished in MVP voting.)

Average:  As a mathematician, I know that an average is something that strives for the "typical" or slightly less accurately the "middle" of a data set.  So, if we say a player is an "average" defensive starting PG, should would rank him probably somewhere between 10-20?  Is that too wide?  12-18?  What do you guys think? 

Above average:  I'd say this would have to be a player, at his respective position, ranked just outside of the elite and going down to the upper bound of whatever "average" is.  Well, IMHO, for overall game I'd say the elite PGs are CP3 and Deron.  The elite SGs are Kobe, Wade.  Elite 3's are Lebron, Melo.  Elite 4's are Pau, Duncan, Amare, Bosh, Dirk.  Elite 5's are Howard.  So that's 12/5 = 2.4 on average players per elite tier.  So somewhere around the 3rd best to 12th best would qualify as "above average" to me.  (Considering this, I retract my description of Ty Thomas as an above average defender.  Potential, yes.  Reality, no.  I'd still say average though.)



Again, these rankings are all up to your free mind.  But, let's hear your agreements/disagreements on my semantics here.  At the very least, if we can't agree on common grounds, I'd like to hear people's thoughts so I know what they mean when they use these blanket adjectives.  Funny to think I'm a math teacher, huh?  You'd be surprised how particular in language math can get.  It's where I learned and will never forget the distinction between "thus" and "therefore".

[action781]

I'm gonna throw this out there: Do you really have to be an elite defender to shut down this years versions of Beasley, Jameson or Lewis?

And as I now see KC's comment, it's a good time to point out that I did NOT use the word elite to describe KG's defense, I said "great".  And yes, a player who can hold 4 consecutive playoff-team starting PFs to below their average performances would qualify him as being "great" in my mind.  What more can you really ask for?  Lewis and Jamison are guys that have posed matchup problems to many other teams.  I know that he didn't do it to Duncan and Amare, but I can't hold that against him just because he didn't get the opportunity to face them.  He did hold Pau to 47.8% shooting who regularly shot closer to 54%.

[KCattheStripe]

I'm gonna throw this out there: Do you really have to be an elite defender to shut down this years versions of Beasley, Jameson or Lewis?

And as I now see KC's comment, it's a good time to point out that I did NOT use the word elite to describe KG's defense, I said "great".  And yes, a player who can hold 4 consecutive playoff-team starting PFs to below their average performances would qualify him as being "great" in my mind.  What more can you really ask for?  Lewis and Jamison are guys that have posed matchup problems to many other teams.  I know that he didn't do it to Duncan and Amare, but I can't hold that against him just because he didn't get the opportunity to face them.  He did hold Pau to 47.8% shooting who regularly shot closer to 54%.

A couple of things:
1) You said "great" I said very good, then someone else said elite and I said no.
2) I can hold his entire season of very good, but not great defense, followed by three series of shutting down 3 PFs who were all having lackluster years against a case for his greatness.

[mgent]

I'm gonna throw this out there: Do you really have to be an elite defender to shut down this years versions of Beasley, Jameson or Lewis?

And as I now see KC's comment, it's a good time to point out that I did NOT use the word elite to describe KG's defense, I said "great".  And yes, a player who can hold 4 consecutive playoff-team starting PFs to below their average performances would qualify him as being "great" in my mind.  What more can you really ask for?  Lewis and Jamison are guys that have posed matchup problems to many other teams.  I know that he didn't do it to Duncan and Amare, but I can't hold that against him just because he didn't get the opportunity to face them.  He did hold Pau to 47.8% shooting who regularly shot closer to 54%.

A couple of things:
1) You said "great" I said very good, then someone else said elite and I said no.
2) I can hold his entire season of very good, but not great defense, followed by three series of shutting down 3 PFs who were all having lackluster years against a case for his greatness.

I have confidence that KG will return to elite status next year and go back to being one of the best defensive players in the game (I have to I'm a Celtics fan).

It's one of his last chances to get a ring, and he's gotta make up for last year.

[action781]

action good comments. regarding noah, I will revisit that tomorrow when im at work.

regarding ty thomas...he's 24, but been in the league what, 5 years? he's already been traded once for peanuts because of his attitude.

and before then, he was still 6'9 on a good day with the gifts to be a good defender ala shown marion or josh smith...but never the drive. he's too unskilled to play the 3 and too  soft to play the 4.

cousins on the other hand is nearly 7 feet coming off  a season where he led the ncaa in boards (correct if im wrong) ty thomas can't touch his hype now..his story is simply too far told.

jrue holiday outplayed iverson and lou williams last season, and he managed to keep him mouth shut about it when he was benched. that alone tells me he's more evolved  than thomas.

Cousins was ranked 20th in the ncaa in boards.  He may have led the league in rebounds per 40 minutes, but I can't find it quickly.  While I am a huge fan of Cousins' potential for the future, I can't project that highly this season for a guy who only played 23.5 mpg in a 32 game season and averaged 3.2 fouls per game.  How does that translate him to being a highly successful rebounder as a starting center in an 82 game season?  A guy who also has motivation issues working against him.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree for who was more hyped as a college player in Cousins vs. Thomas.  Cousins averaged 9.8 rebounds per game to Thomas' 9.2 and Cousins averaged 1.8 blocks per game to Thomas' 3.1 where Thomas played 2.4 mpg more.  And Thomas put on a shot blocking clinic in the NCAA tourney that year.

I probably wasn't clear on this, but I didn't mean compare Thomas' hype now to Cousins' hype now.  I meant compare Thomas' college hype to Cousins' college hype.  Think about how much Thomas has disappointed you and realize that Cousins has, IMO, equal probability of disappointing likewise.  Again, I personally think Cousins will pan out and be an all star some day.  I also thought Thomas would be an all-league PF defender someday.  I have to take that into consideration when voting/ranking on teams.

[Who]

3.  I agree with Roy that you overrate Noah.  Elite?  What defines elite?  I think in a class far and away better than most in sports (although my dictionary simply says "considered to be the best"). 

I'd put Noah behind Howard, Perkins, Duncan, Camby, and maybe a healthy Yao.  Bogut is up with him there too, maybe Nene also?  He finished tied for 5th with Perk in the all defensive voting. 

The fact that you will never find a majority of a population to rank him in the top 6 does not qualify him as "elite" in my mind.  Dwight Howard is elite; Noah is not.

I would rank Joakim Noah as the 3rd best defensive center in the NBA behind Dwight Howard + Greg Oden.

[indeedproceed]

well in that case your own logic is faulty if I understand you correctly. vis a vis, you are holding cousins accountable to the same standards of disappointment that have been the hallmarks of thomas's flop of a career thusfar. cousins by default should be held in higher regard because a) he has ideal size for his position and b) he hasn't? disappointed us yet.

regarding noah, and the use of elite.....i think noah is one of the top three defending centers in the league...and I will defend that tomorrow when I can actually use the net on a comp instead of off my phone.

[indeedproceed]

ah ha! who to the rescue!

[Roy H.]

3.  I agree with Roy that you overrate Noah.  Elite?  What defines elite?  I think in a class far and away better than most in sports (although my dictionary simply says "considered to be the best"). 

I'd put Noah behind Howard, Perkins, Duncan, Camby, and maybe a healthy Yao.  Bogut is up with him there too, maybe Nene also?  He finished tied for 5th with Perk in the all defensive voting. 

The fact that you will never find a majority of a population to rank him in the top 6 does not qualify him as "elite" in my mind.  Dwight Howard is elite; Noah is not.

I would rank Joakim Noah as the 3rd best defensive center in the NBA behind Dwight Howard + Greg Oden.

I can't remember saying Noah was overrated...  I don't necessarily like his attitude all the time, but when his head is in the game he's near the top of the league defensively.  (I would rank him behind Perk in terms of defense, though, but ahead of Perk in rebounding.)

[indeedproceed]

I would rank noah very firmly ahead of perkins as an overall defensive player, because noah is a defensive leader. on defense, kg is? the leader.

in terms of defending the best centers in the league in a 1 on 1 setting...perkins ranks ahead of noah. he ranks ahead of everyone besides dwight howard and some nights, tim duncan.