Official Discuss your CB Draft team

[nickagneta]

This year's crop of rookies and struggling second year players only goes to show the risks one takes in this game when selecting rookies or expecting second year players to make a jump forward. It's okay to do it if those players are outside your rotation, but to rely on them as productive pieces of the puzzle in a rotation, is not a good idea in this endeavor.

This year's crop of rookies have been awful. Wall looked great to start but now seems to have taken a big step backwards. Turner and Johnson and Cousins and some of the other higher drafted players have been awful. Most of the mid and low first rounders aren't even seeing playing time.

Goes back to what I discussed during the game. Drafting rookies and expecting results out of them is a mistake to building a winning team in this game. They are nice to litter the out of rotation spots and if you get lucky they are good, then great(like Landry Fields). Otherwise, stuff like this year can happen.

[StartOrien]

I still think at some point you have to consider drafting the rookies. I'll go back to the example I used at the draft, he hasn't been a world beater but I'd still take Ed Davis over Antonio McDeyss for one year. McDeyss has the provent rack record, but I think at some point you have to be able to project that these lottery picks would be able to put up similar numbers w/ similar minutes with a much higher ceiling.

[indeedproceed]

I still think at some point you have to consider drafting the rookies. I'll go back to the example I used at the draft, he hasn't been a world beater but I'd still take Ed Davis over Antonio McDeyss for one year. McDeyss has the provent rack record, but I think at some point you have to be able to project that these lottery picks would be able to put up similar numbers w/ similar minutes with a much higher ceiling.

But to me it is all about context and fit. Numbers are one thing, and they're important as an evaluator of talent, but fit and efficiency and consistency are the bigger deals with rookies.

Example: DeMarcus Cousins
He's getting 11 and 7 in just 24 minutes...that's good business. But, he's also shooting just 40%, and his opponent's PER at the center position is 19.5, which is well above average.

Example: Greg Monroe
He's a big getting used to the NBA, so his low production is okay. Opposing centers do better against him than they do against most other people, and he only shoots 44%

Example: Derrick Favors
-I think Derrick Favors has shown he could fill a role similar to the one (time-wise) to the one that Leon Powe filled for the 2008 Celtics. He's a rookie I think that can be relied upon to be a backup big.

Ed Davis hasn't really played enough (and I haven't seen him at all) for me to pass any kind of judgment.

Blake Griffin and Landry (Clark) Fields are the 2 guys I think could start on a competitive playoff team, and for different reasons. Landry Fields plays off the ball and plays amazing defense for a rookie, plus he can hit a 3. Blake Griffin can start because he defends, he finishes in transition, and the rest of his game is coming along..and he's been consistently good.

Even John Wall couldn't start for a playoff team. Too much learning curve for a point who loves to dominate the ball.

[Who]

Even John Wall couldn't start for a playoff team. Too much learning curve for a point who loves to dominate the ball.

John Wall is a top ten point guard in the NBA already.

The only guys I am taking ahead of Wall for this season are Rondo, Paul, Deron, S.Curry, Nash, D.Rose, Westbrook and maybe Tony Parker.

[nickagneta]

I still think at some point you have to consider drafting the rookies. I'll go back to the example I used at the draft, he hasn't been a world beater but I'd still take Ed Davis over Antonio McDeyss for one year. McDeyss has the provent rack record, but I think at some point you have to be able to project that these lottery picks would be able to put up similar numbers w/ similar minutes with a much higher ceiling.

Yes, but remember, you are only playing this for one year. Ed Davis' high long term ceiling has nothing to do with this particular year because come next draft, he's not on your team. So what does his ceiling really have to do with anything?

Right now both players you bring up have similar stats. About 5 PPG, a little over 5 RPG in over 18 MPG. But, McDyess is doing it in a productive manner for the team with the best record in the league and Davis is doing it on a team that is winning one out of every three games while playing on one of the absolute worst defensive teams in the league.

Which stats do you think are more impressive? Which player would you really want one your team for just this year? Would you want the vet who's stats are being attained while playing winning basketball or the rookie who's stats are being attained while playing losing basketball? In the end, who would you really rather go into the playoffs with? The guy that's been there or the rookie who hasn't?

[StartOrien]

I still think at some point you have to consider drafting the rookies. I'll go back to the example I used at the draft, he hasn't been a world beater but I'd still take Ed Davis over Antonio McDeyss for one year. McDeyss has the provent rack record, but I think at some point you have to be able to project that these lottery picks would be able to put up similar numbers w/ similar minutes with a much higher ceiling.

But to me it is all about context and fit. Numbers are one thing, and they're important as an evaluator of talent, but fit and efficiency and consistency are the bigger deals with rookies.

Example: DeMarcus Cousins
He's getting 11 and 7 in just 24 minutes...that's good business. But, he's also shooting just 40%, and his opponent's PER at the center position is 19.5, which is well above average.

Example: Greg Monroe
He's a big getting used to the NBA, so his low production is okay. Opposing centers do better against him than they do against most other people, and he only shoots 44%

Example: Derrick Favors
-I think Derrick Favors has shown he could fill a role similar to the one (time-wise) to the one that Leon Powe filled for the 2008 Celtics. He's a rookie I think that can be relied upon to be a backup big.

Ed Davis hasn't really played enough (and I haven't seen him at all) for me to pass any kind of judgment.

Blake Griffin and Landry (Clark) Fields are the 2 guys I think could start on a competitive playoff team, and for different reasons. Landry Fields plays off the ball and plays amazing defense for a rookie, plus he can hit a 3. Blake Griffin can start because he defends, he finishes in transition, and the rest of his game is coming along..and he's been consistently good.

Even John Wall couldn't start for a playoff team. Too much learning curve for a point who loves to dominate the ball.

I'd agree with you on most cases if you're talking about a guy whose going to play over 20 minutes (with some clear exceptions, and I also think you can get away with starting a rookie at SG if he can shoot), but I think role players are different. You're 100% right, numbers don't tell everything. But at some point the production between a lottery pick and a proven player have to be pretty close, and I'd gamble on a lottery pick on most cases - again, provided I'm not expecting him to play huge minutes.

Which stats do you think are more impressive? Which player would you really want one your team for just this year? Would you want the vet who's stats are being attained while playing winning basketball or the rookie who's stats are being attained while playing losing basketball? In the end, who would you really rather go into the playoffs with? The guy that's been there or the rookie who hasn't?

Personally, I'd take the rookie.

[indeedproceed]

Even John Wall couldn't start for a playoff team. Too much learning curve for a point who loves to dominate the ball.

John Wall is a top ten point guard in the NBA already.

The only guys I am taking ahead of Wall for this season are Rondo, Paul, Deron, S.Curry, Nash, D.Rose, Westbrook and maybe Tony Parker.

Sure, talent-wise he's a top 10 point guard. But, because of his value, he's going to be one of the top 2 talents on your squad. How do you build a contender around Wall when he's got to dominate the ball? Until he becomes consistent and reliable, he's not an option there. You can build a good team around Wall, and you might even get a 7 or 8 seed if you're really savvy..but you can't build a contender around him as one of your top 2 pieces. In 3 years, sure. Not this year though.

[indeedproceed]

I'd agree with you on most cases if you're talking about a guy whose going to play over 20 minutes (with some clear exceptions, and I also think you can get away with starting a rookie at SG if he can shoot), but I think role players are different. You're 100% right, numbers don't tell everything. But at some point the production between a lottery pick and a proven player have to be pretty close, and I'd gamble on a lottery pick on most cases - again, provided I'm not expecting him to play huge minutes.

Well, what's huge minutes? I'd say huge minutes is 17 mpg or above. If the numbers are the same, you've also got to focus on things numbers don't tell you..look at defense, or if they can help the offense function better. All the guys we're talking about are "good players". A lot of them will be rotation players in a year or two. But, very few of them are reliable enough to be rotation players on contending teams. I guess that's my point.

[nickagneta]

I agree with IP. It all has to be taken in context and when it comes to rookies, there's is no context to discuss during our draft as they have yet to play and given what we have seen this year, and in many many other years, rookies can fall flat on their faces.

Ed Davis' numbers look good but he's played 8 games on a team that gave up over 108 points 6 times in those 8 games. How just how impressive are his numbers compared to a guy like McDyuess who is getting the same numbers all year long playing on the best team in the league?

Context.

Here's another example: S.O. took Greg Monroe in the sixth round but proven players on good teams that play winning basketball were still available. Players like Big Baby and Brandon Bass and Robin Lopez and  Brad Miller and Ersan Ilyasova and Nazr Mohammed.

[StartOrien]

That's a pretty valid point, Nick. I will say that I picked Monroe thinking I'd be able to get another vet big in the next round.

I guess the true tale will be where they're at by the end of the season.

[wdleehi]

Rookie drafting


If you take a rookie early, you are building towards the future.  The rest of your picks should point that way.  (that why I put together a young team)


If you pick a rookie late, never expect him to be a rotational player.  Make sure you have bench player in front of him at his position. 

[Edgar]

Rookie drafting


If you take a rookie early, you are building towards the future.  The rest of your picks should point that way.  (that why I put together a young team)


If you pick a rookie late, never expect him to be a rotational player.  Make sure you have bench player in front of him at his position. 

not called scal :x

[nickagneta]

Rookie drafting


If you take a rookie early, you are building towards the future.  The rest of your picks should point that way.  (that why I put together a young team)


If you pick a rookie late, never expect him to be a rotational player.  Make sure you have bench player in front of him at his position. 

TP. Agree 100%.

My Boxers Ray Felton and Wilson Chandler looked good last night versus the C's though Chandler's shot selection was a bit suspect at time.

[Edgar]

Are you kididng me

Jammer  16-9
Ray     20-4
Pierce  20-4
Lee      9-16 but they were playing without him
Anthony 19-8

Come on and i was left out of playoffs....
after las night shot i demmand a recount.
lol

[mgent]

Do people still think my vets would lose to Yao Ming and his butter-soft, like-skinned, euro-trash buddies?