Barkley going after James...again!!

[Snakehead]

We played better D on LBJ last season than anyone ever has. What does "intensity" mean there?  His ability to do things on the court?  Because yes, that was hampered.  If you're talking about his facial expressions or something.. Idk.  He had poor body language at the end there, but again that was our defense frusterating him.  He had no help and when he was struggling against our D there was nothing to turn to for that Cleveland team.

Now let me try to understand this:

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.

So he is a coward because he "hid" behind a special which the entire point of was to show which team he had freely decidied to join (and in the case of him leaving Cleveland, which team he had decided to leave Cle for)?  If LBJ was hiding, he was bad at it, because he was "hiding" on LIVE TV and everyone could see him.

That makes zero sense.  If anything he is far from a coward, and is brash and insenstitive because he let Cleveland fans fall on their faces on live TV.  He is not a coward.  He put himself out there and stood by his decision on live TV, defending it to Wilbon right after.  And they showed him images of his jersey being burned in Cleveland.  If you want to say he is insenstitive and made a bad decision by having a special, sure, but cowardly?  How?

And he was not beat by Wade and Bosh.  They played on poor teams, one that hardly made the Playoffs and one that did not at all.  If you want to say he had to get help to be on a contending team, sure, that is true.  But there is no shame there, everyone needed great players around them to win championships, see the 80's Celts and Lakers, Pippen, Rodman, etc for Jordan, and the Lakers jumping into the position of leagues best team when Gasol was added to support Kobe.  This is nothing new, and nothing to be ashamed of.



I guess you'll pass on that whole Jordan, PER argument...

Lebron stood around and didn't try.  He would get the ball, dribble outside the 3 point line and then pass the ball off.  You can see from his facail expressions he wasn't in the game.  You can try and attribute that to good defense (the Celts plaed great defense overall), I see that as quitting. 

As for the fact that going on National TV proves he isn't a coward.  Please.  He couldn't even look his former owner in the face and tell him he was leaving.  He wasn't even man enought o call him, he had his friend call for him.  That is being a coward. 

LeBron couldn't penetrate our great defense and he'd rather not jack up long range shots because he is not great at them.  Again, yes he was frusterated, but that was because the defense was so smothering.  Like Tim said, his team was outmatched.  They had a disadvantage at every single matchup but his.  And against great defense one man cannot win.

 He didn't tell the owner because everyone found out on Live TV but his best friends.  Again, you can criticize how he did the whole thing but he was not a "coward", he was brash and foolish in his handling of it but not cowardly.

[Celtics4ever]

quitter [ˈkwɪtə]
n
a person who gives up easily; defeatist, deserter, or shirker



Snake, you clearly bought the hype and marketing on Jester James.  How would you like to place a little wager?  My Celtics against LeBron in the playoffs next year?  I am confident that Mr. James will choke he always does and he will kill team with his inefficient play.  All this talk about them being a super team is nonsense as they don't have enough basketballs to go around.  First time that he something difficult happens he will run to his mommy and quit.

How many years did Micheal win his first ring?  How many years does James have in?  He might produce numbers but this kid has no heart and his will to win is meager at best.

Look his picture made the dictionary. 

[nba is the worst]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

  People are talking about the postseason, not the regular season. Unfortunately for the Cavs they weren't playing the Celtics team that spent the last few months of the season waiting for the playoffs to begin.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

  Can you do that for the 08 playoffs? How could LeBron score 12 points on 18 shots with 10 turnovers in game 1 and 45 points on 29 shots in game 7? Is such a thing even possible? And how did he score 21 points on 24 shots in game 2 with 7 turnovers and score 35 points on 25 shots in game 5? How is it possible that he doesn't play the same, game in and game out?

  This is just silliness.

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

  Didn't Shaq and Varejao also quit? Rondo outrebounded them by 13 (Shaq) and 15 (AV). What quitters. And then you have those quitters Williams, Carter, West, Jamison, Moon and Hickson, all of whom were greatly outrebounded by  Rondo. Did I miss anyone?

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

  Sure, those meaningless late season games are *really* the best way to judge these things.

I'm enjoying the selective ignoring of the points I made.

Nothing about how the Celtics' defense was CLEARLY superior in '08, holding their opponents to a phenomenal 88.8 pts on .426 FG, doubling the avg victory margin of the '10 Celts - yet the Cavs were able to win the home games.

Nothing about what the difference in the CELTICS was between game 3 and game 4, nothing about how in game 4 the Cavs centers controlled the Celts, that the game was totally winnable, and we saw far less than previously typical effort from LeBron in 4th quarters.

Look at LeBrons' scoring in the 4th Q in the key games in '08 - he had 10 pts in the 4th in game 5, and 13 in game 7. In '10, it's 5 pts in game 4, 3 pts on 3 shots in game 5, and the 10-pts in the elimination game with the "those last two games were too obvious" triple double, where he couldn't wait to get off the court, take off the Cavs jersey, and shake hands with the Celtics.

And as for the oft-repeated cliche that the Celtics never played motivated in the regular season, that is belied by the games where they did play hard, vs their rivals like the Lakers, Magic, and Cavs...

I guess my main point is that when you see the kind of effort LeBron gave against the Celtics versus the effort LeQuit did, the stats are irrelevant other than to show the trends. Why did all the analysts and commentators mention it, if it wasn't OBVIOUS?
 
LilRip's points about his demeanor are also telling. He sent a big message to his teammates and fans, and the Celtics were the beneficiaries.

"None are as blind as those who refuse to see" (due to green goggles)...

  First of all, I didn't "selectively ignore" those points, I pointed out that the Celts defense in the playoffs this year was much better that in the regular season. Showing the stats from the regular seasons isn't very meaningful. Also, when you say that the Cavs were able to win the home playoff games in 08, you need to remember that the 2010 team was more of a veteran group in terms of having played together in the playoffs. In 2008 the Celts lost all three games in Atlanta as well. Also, if you watched the Celts play (I don't know if you did) then you wouldn't necessarily say that they played especially hard vs the Cavs or the Magic or the Lakers. And your "green colored glasses" comments are a little childish. The fact is the Celts were clearly the better team and LeBron would have had to play well above what's average for him for the Cavs to win.

The defensive stats from both years were from the playoffs.

I've watched every Celts-Cavs game since '07, and it's easy to see the difference between LeBron's effort previously and in games 4-6.

Why you can't see it is your issue - sorry you find my lame attempt at humor wrt green goggles childish, but in this case it seems appropriate.

[nba is the worst]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit.  He couldn't care less whether he won or lost.  He knew he was leaving.

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.  I will never have an issue of him wanting to play with his friends to win a title.  I get it, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.  That being said, be a man and admit you want to leave and accept responsibility for it

This is what I've been trying to say - the lack of effort was in no way due to the Celtics' defense. AND GAME 4 WAS THE WORST, BECAUSE HIS TEAMMATES (EXCEPT DELONTE - COINCIDENCE?) STEPPED UP.

[BballTim]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

  People are talking about the postseason, not the regular season. Unfortunately for the Cavs they weren't playing the Celtics team that spent the last few months of the season waiting for the playoffs to begin.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

  Can you do that for the 08 playoffs? How could LeBron score 12 points on 18 shots with 10 turnovers in game 1 and 45 points on 29 shots in game 7? Is such a thing even possible? And how did he score 21 points on 24 shots in game 2 with 7 turnovers and score 35 points on 25 shots in game 5? How is it possible that he doesn't play the same, game in and game out?

  This is just silliness.

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

  Didn't Shaq and Varejao also quit? Rondo outrebounded them by 13 (Shaq) and 15 (AV). What quitters. And then you have those quitters Williams, Carter, West, Jamison, Moon and Hickson, all of whom were greatly outrebounded by  Rondo. Did I miss anyone?

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

  Sure, those meaningless late season games are *really* the best way to judge these things.

I'm enjoying the selective ignoring of the points I made.

Nothing about how the Celtics' defense was CLEARLY superior in '08, holding their opponents to a phenomenal 88.8 pts on .426 FG, doubling the avg victory margin of the '10 Celts - yet the Cavs were able to win the home games.

Nothing about what the difference in the CELTICS was between game 3 and game 4, nothing about how in game 4 the Cavs centers controlled the Celts, that the game was totally winnable, and we saw far less than previously typical effort from LeBron in 4th quarters.

Look at LeBrons' scoring in the 4th Q in the key games in '08 - he had 10 pts in the 4th in game 5, and 13 in game 7. In '10, it's 5 pts in game 4, 3 pts on 3 shots in game 5, and the 10-pts in the elimination game with the "those last two games were too obvious" triple double, where he couldn't wait to get off the court, take off the Cavs jersey, and shake hands with the Celtics.

And as for the oft-repeated cliche that the Celtics never played motivated in the regular season, that is belied by the games where they did play hard, vs their rivals like the Lakers, Magic, and Cavs...

I guess my main point is that when you see the kind of effort LeBron gave against the Celtics versus the effort LeQuit did, the stats are irrelevant other than to show the trends. Why did all the analysts and commentators mention it, if it wasn't OBVIOUS?
 
LilRip's points about his demeanor are also telling. He sent a big message to his teammates and fans, and the Celtics were the beneficiaries.

"None are as blind as those who refuse to see" (due to green goggles)...

  First of all, I didn't "selectively ignore" those points, I pointed out that the Celts defense in the playoffs this year was much better that in the regular season. Showing the stats from the regular seasons isn't very meaningful. Also, when you say that the Cavs were able to win the home playoff games in 08, you need to remember that the 2010 team was more of a veteran group in terms of having played together in the playoffs. In 2008 the Celts lost all three games in Atlanta as well. Also, if you watched the Celts play (I don't know if you did) then you wouldn't necessarily say that they played especially hard vs the Cavs or the Magic or the Lakers. And your "green colored glasses" comments are a little childish. The fact is the Celts were clearly the better team and LeBron would have had to play well above what's average for him for the Cavs to win.

The defensive stats from both years were from the playoffs.

I've watched every Celts-Cavs game since '07, and it's easy to see the difference between LeBron's effort previously and in games 4-6.

Why you can't see it is your issue - sorry you find my lame attempt at humor wrt green goggles childish, but in this case it seems appropriate.

  The first set of defensive stats were from the regular season. The second set of stats was from the playoffs, but only for the 08 team. In 08, the Celts gave up 89 points a game on .426 shooting. In 2010, they gave up 91 points a game on .432 shooting. The numbers were very close. Also, the 4 teams that the Celts played in 08 were ranked 3rd, 6th, 16th and 20th with the 7 game series against the 16th and 20th ranked teams. In 2010 they played teams ranked 4,6,11 and 19, with the fewest games against #19. So the 2010 team put up almost the same numbers against somewhat better offenses. Your assessment of the relative strengths of the defenses (as well as some of your other comments) make accusations of others wearing goggles a little ridiculous.

[LilRip]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

and yet, despite your claims of our alleged dominance, we were tied 2-2 after 4 games and they had a blowout to their name. as i've said numerous times, the first 4 games showed a competitive series. Look, we were a great team last year. We wouldn't have made it that far if we weren't. But we probably would've gone 7 games again and the series could've gone either way. Instead, as you said, it was over by game 5. But it wasn't because we were that much more dominant than them (unlike in the Heat series) instead, it was because the MVP version of LBJ had decided not to show up.

To put it in a Celtics context, if Rondo had stopped playing as aggressively, do u think we would've gotten past the Cavs? nope! Heart matters. and LBJ sealed his team's fate much like our fate would've been sealed if Rondo didn't give us his all. But Rondo played his butt off every game of the playoffs. Lebron just kinda did.

to quote MMacOH who put it quite aptly:

"Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit."



- LilRip

[BballTim]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

and yet, despite your claims of our alleged dominance, we were tied 2-2 after 4 games and they had a blowout to their name. as i've said numerous times, the first 4 games showed a competitive series. Look, we were a great team last year. We wouldn't have made it that far if we weren't. But we probably would've gone 7 games again and the series could've gone either way. Instead, as you said, it was over by game 5. But it wasn't because we were that much more dominant than them (unlike in the Heat series) instead, it was because the MVP version of LBJ had decided not to show up.

To put it in a Celtics context, if Rondo had stopped playing as aggressively, do u think we would've gotten past the Cavs? nope! Heart matters. and LBJ sealed his team's fate much like our fate would've been sealed if Rondo didn't give us his all. But Rondo played his butt off every game of the playoffs. Lebron just kinda did.

to quote MMacOH who put it quite aptly:

"Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit."



- LilRip

  The series wasn't that competitive. We gave way game 1, in control until late in the 3rd. We were up 25 in the 4th in game 2 in Cleveland. We played like crap in game 3, but probably should have been up 3-1 after the game 4 win. By the middle of the 3rd quarter in game 5 the series was pretty much over. We were handling LeBron, we were handling the Cavs, and they  couldn't control Rondo or KG. That's about when, by your reckoning, LeBron quit.

[fairweatherfan]

Isn't it possible that the Celtics were the better team AND LeBron quit on his team once he realized that?  They aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't buy that LeBron would go into a series intending to throw it, but it seems like he pretty much knew he was leaving before the playoffs, and once we showed we were much better than the regular season, and the other Cavs showed they were paper tigers that couldn't handle us, LeBron basically let up.

Looking at the series, once we got a big lead in Game 5, LeBron became much less aggressive and seemed content to stand at the 3 pt line and wait for the game to end.  Game 6 the effort was much better, but with about 3 minutes left the entire Cavs team stopped trying, even though the game was in reach.  That includes LeBron, but the whole team seemed to know the score.

Either way, it's great that we so thoroughly broke that bunch of pretenders.  Which reminds me, how's LeBron's elbow feeling?   

[nba is the worst]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

and yet, despite your claims of our alleged dominance, we were tied 2-2 after 4 games and they had a blowout to their name. as i've said numerous times, the first 4 games showed a competitive series. Look, we were a great team last year. We wouldn't have made it that far if we weren't. But we probably would've gone 7 games again and the series could've gone either way. Instead, as you said, it was over by game 5. But it wasn't because we were that much more dominant than them (unlike in the Heat series) instead, it was because the MVP version of LBJ had decided not to show up.

To put it in a Celtics context, if Rondo had stopped playing as aggressively, do u think we would've gotten past the Cavs? nope! Heart matters. and LBJ sealed his team's fate much like our fate would've been sealed if Rondo didn't give us his all. But Rondo played his butt off every game of the playoffs. Lebron just kinda did.

to quote MMacOH who put it quite aptly:

"Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit."



- LilRip

  The series wasn't that competitive. We gave way game 1, in control until late in the 3rd. We were up 25 in the 4th in game 2 in Cleveland. We played like crap in game 3, but probably should have been up 3-1 after the game 4 win. By the middle of the 3rd quarter in game 5 the series was pretty much over. We were handling LeBron, we were handling the Cavs, and they  couldn't control Rondo or KG. That's about when, by your reckoning, LeBron quit.

So keep ignoring him quitting in game 4 - and he never even started to try in game 5...

And in game 5, he takes 2 shots in the 1st Q, 5 in the 2nd (fouled on four of them). 7 shot attempts for the repeat MVP in the swing game, and they still only trail by 6at halftime.

(GAME 5 '08, he took 16 shot attempts in the 1st half, fouled on three of them).

So reality doesn't match your statements.

[LilRip]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

and yet, despite your claims of our alleged dominance, we were tied 2-2 after 4 games and they had a blowout to their name. as i've said numerous times, the first 4 games showed a competitive series. Look, we were a great team last year. We wouldn't have made it that far if we weren't. But we probably would've gone 7 games again and the series could've gone either way. Instead, as you said, it was over by game 5. But it wasn't because we were that much more dominant than them (unlike in the Heat series) instead, it was because the MVP version of LBJ had decided not to show up.

To put it in a Celtics context, if Rondo had stopped playing as aggressively, do u think we would've gotten past the Cavs? nope! Heart matters. and LBJ sealed his team's fate much like our fate would've been sealed if Rondo didn't give us his all. But Rondo played his butt off every game of the playoffs. Lebron just kinda did.

to quote MMacOH who put it quite aptly:

"Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit."



- LilRip

  The series wasn't that competitive. We gave way game 1, in control until late in the 3rd. We were up 25 in the 4th in game 2 in Cleveland. We played like crap in game 3, but probably should have been up 3-1 after the game 4 win. By the middle of the 3rd quarter in game 5 the series was pretty much over. We were handling LeBron, we were handling the Cavs, and they  couldn't control Rondo or KG. That's about when, by your reckoning, LeBron quit.

oh please. don't delude yourself. "gave away game 1"?? You talk as if the Cavs had no business winning that game. We had an 11 point lead with 6 minutes left to go in the 3rd. that's not dominant. that's still 18 minutes of basketball left! Add to that the fact that we were down 1 to enter the 4th anyway. So if we had "dominated" them for 30 minutes, they "dominated" us even more in just 18 minutes.

We blew them out game 2. And "we played like crap" means they blew us out in game 3.

Game 4 was a solid win for us, but let's not forget that we needed Rondo's superhuman trip-dub to win that. a 3 point lead with 2 minutes to go is not an example of us dominating them. The play of the game was Rondo's offensive rebound and floater with around a minute to go.

game 5 was the most important game for both sides up to that point and interestingly enough, that's when Lebron doesn't show up. However, us being up 13 with 6 minutes to go in the 3rd doesn't seal a game either, especially when you take into account Lebron's lackluster effort thus far. And being up 3-2 doesn't seal a series. If Lebron was into it during game 5 (and 6), we would've had a more competitive series. Too bad for them, Lebron didn't even give his team a chance. After quickly reviewing some stats and quickly browsing through the game.. yeah, game 5. lebron wasn't into that game.

**

fairweatherfan, the Celtics might've been the better team. And we might've still won even if LBJ didn't quit. However, i don't agree with the notion that the Celtics were so dominant over the Cavs that the series was essentially over in 5. It was when Lebron quit on his team and declined to really fight that the Cavs pretty much had zero chance of winning. And that's when we started looking dominant.

again, it's hard to look that bad when you're that good. that's why LBJ was still able to get his stats. but you know something's off when a player lacks the effort and aggressiveness that you've grown to expect from him.



- LilRip

[Fafnir]

So instead of LeBron having a bad game, he quit?

I still don't buy it. Mentally I wouldn't be surprised if he was tired and beat up from a long season. Sometimes players just have bad games for whatever reason.

Did Rondo quit in the Finals when he stopped driving?

[fairweatherfan]

fairweatherfan, the Celtics might've been the better team. And we might've still won even if LBJ didn't quit. However, i don't agree with the notion that the Celtics were so dominant over the Cavs that the series was essentially over in 5. It was when Lebron quit on his team and declined to really fight that the Cavs pretty much had zero chance of winning. And that's when we started looking dominant.

The Celtics were definitely the better team in the series, because we beat them, and it wasn't particularly close.  To refute that you've got to get into hypothetical situations that you'll never be able to prove or disprove.  If LeBron plays harder, do we win the series?  Dunno, but in the series that actually happened, we won, and that's all we have to go on.

As for dominance, there are different ways to dominate a team.  I agree that we weren't exactly running circles around Cleveland early in the series, but I'd say regardless of whether LeBron quit or not we dominated them (and him) psychologically - and if he did quit, the case is even stronger.  Compare their body language when they were down in Game 1 vs when they were down in Game 6. They went from acting as if they could wallop us at will to barely trying to overcome a 3-possession deficit in crunch time of an elimination game. 

Being mentally tougher is a huge factor when you reach the level where every team has elite talent.  Mental toughness is why we were the better team, and LeBron and the Cavs' passive play late in the series was a major symptom of that.  But I disagree that it didn't start with us.

[BballTim]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

and yet, despite your claims of our alleged dominance, we were tied 2-2 after 4 games and they had a blowout to their name. as i've said numerous times, the first 4 games showed a competitive series. Look, we were a great team last year. We wouldn't have made it that far if we weren't. But we probably would've gone 7 games again and the series could've gone either way. Instead, as you said, it was over by game 5. But it wasn't because we were that much more dominant than them (unlike in the Heat series) instead, it was because the MVP version of LBJ had decided not to show up.

To put it in a Celtics context, if Rondo had stopped playing as aggressively, do u think we would've gotten past the Cavs? nope! Heart matters. and LBJ sealed his team's fate much like our fate would've been sealed if Rondo didn't give us his all. But Rondo played his butt off every game of the playoffs. Lebron just kinda did.

to quote MMacOH who put it quite aptly:

"Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit."



- LilRip

  The series wasn't that competitive. We gave way game 1, in control until late in the 3rd. We were up 25 in the 4th in game 2 in Cleveland. We played like crap in game 3, but probably should have been up 3-1 after the game 4 win. By the middle of the 3rd quarter in game 5 the series was pretty much over. We were handling LeBron, we were handling the Cavs, and they  couldn't control Rondo or KG. That's about when, by your reckoning, LeBron quit.

oh please. don't delude yourself. "gave away game 1"?? You talk as if the Cavs had no business winning that game. We had an 11 point lead with 6 minutes left to go in the 3rd. that's not dominant. that's still 18 minutes of basketball left! Add to that the fact that we were down 1 to enter the 4th anyway. So if we had "dominated" them for 30 minutes, they "dominated" us even more in just 18 minutes.

We blew them out game 2. And "we played like crap" means they blew us out in game 3.

Game 4 was a solid win for us, but let's not forget that we needed Rondo's superhuman trip-dub to win that. a 3 point lead with 2 minutes to go is not an example of us dominating them. The play of the game was Rondo's offensive rebound and floater with around a minute to go.

game 5 was the most important game for both sides up to that point and interestingly enough, that's when Lebron doesn't show up. However, us being up 13 with 6 minutes to go in the 3rd doesn't seal a game either, especially when you take into account Lebron's lackluster effort thus far. And being up 3-2 doesn't seal a series. If Lebron was into it during game 5 (and 6), we would've had a more competitive series. Too bad for them, Lebron didn't even give his team a chance. After quickly reviewing some stats and quickly browsing through the game.. yeah, game 5. lebron wasn't into that game.

**

fairweatherfan, the Celtics might've been the better team. And we might've still won even if LBJ didn't quit. However, i don't agree with the notion that the Celtics were so dominant over the Cavs that the series was essentially over in 5. It was when Lebron quit on his team and declined to really fight that the Cavs pretty much had zero chance of winning. And that's when we started looking dominant.

again, it's hard to look that bad when you're that good. that's why LBJ was still able to get his stats. but you know something's off when a player lacks the effort and aggressiveness that you've grown to expect from him.



- LilRip

  Sorry, pal. "deluding yourself" doesn't actually mean "having a different opinion than LilRip". Look it up.

  I have a question though, since you seem to be so tuned in to how LeBron thinks. Why did LeBron quit when he did? Cleveland had the best record in the league, and LeBron was the MVP. They went into the playoffs with a good shot at the title, and easily handled the Bulls. Why give up a shot at the title?

  According to you, he quit in the middle of game 5. Why then? Why play hard for one series and 4+ games and then give up when they were in a tossup of a series? Did he decide that he'd taken enough shots that year? Was it a sudden onset of boredom?  Did he suddenly decide he had no interest in winning a title?

[BballTim]

So keep ignoring him quitting in game 4 - and he never even started to try in game 5...

And in game 5, he takes 2 shots in the 1st Q, 5 in the 2nd (fouled on four of them). 7 shot attempts for the repeat MVP in the swing game, and they still only trail by 6at halftime.

(GAME 5 '08, he took 16 shot attempts in the 1st half, fouled on three of them).

So reality doesn't match your statements.

  The reality is that every time I point out something similar to your examples in the past you don't even try and address it. You just move on with another example like it never happened.

  By the way, getting fouled on 4 of 7 shots compared to 3 of 16 is pretty obvious evidence that the defense was playing LeBron a lot tighter in game 5 of 2010.

[nba is the worst]

So keep ignoring him quitting in game 4 - and he never even started to try in game 5...

And in game 5, he takes 2 shots in the 1st Q, 5 in the 2nd (fouled on four of them). 7 shot attempts for the repeat MVP in the swing game, and they still only trail by 6 at halftime.

(GAME 5 '08, he took 16 shot attempts in the 1st half, fouled on three of them).

So reality doesn't match your statements.

  The reality is that every time I point out something similar to your examples in the past you don't even try and address it. You just move on with another example like it never happened.

  By the way, getting fouled on 4 of 7 shots compared to 3 of 16 is pretty obvious evidence that the defense was playing LeBron a lot tighter in game 5 of 2010.

Kind of like you claiming the defense was better in '10 than in '08 - I guess qty of fouls = tightness of defense in your estimation...

More pertinent is LeQUIT only taking 6 shots in the 4thQ of game 4, which you haven't responded to - and just 14 shots in game 5, as the leader of the #1 seed at home in a tied series.

He quit in game 4 and the entirety of game 5, NOT "halfway through game 5" - it's OBVIOUS from watching the games!