Barkley going after James...again!!

[nba is the worst]

"I've seen kobe score 40 a night and then barely scrape 40% against the C's but, he didn't quit."

Exactly - Kobe had a HORRIBLE game 7 in the Finals, but didn't quit.  But LeBron's quitting was blatantly obvious - HUGE difference.

If one was to be able to determine these types of things from just watching a game. I think you could make the argument that Kobe quit in game 7 of the 08 finals vs Boston or game 7 of 06 playoffs against the Suns.  LJ while a coattail riding coward just got beat by a better team this past playoff season.  I can see where some people might think Lebron quit because it's soooo hard to wrap your head around the fact that Boston could beat Cleveland straight up.  The same Cleveland team that some people think be lucky to win 30 games w/o LJ this season.

When you see a player take control of a series with a 38-pt, 63% FG performance leading his team to a 2-1 series lead handing the Celtics their worst home playoff loss in team history suddenly play completely differently than EVER BEFORE, it's really easy to "determine these types of things".

No way the Celtics prevail if he didn't quit.

?

No way Celtics beat the Cavs if LeBron doesn't quit?.

First, when did he quit? I find it hard to believe as title contenders, he took a 2-1 series lead, took back HCA and decided "yeah, that's enough for this season, can't wait to join Wade and Bosh next season in Miami." After all, why would an MVP on the best (record) team quit immediately after blowing out the opposition?

After game 4, after losing a tough game in Boston, I also find it hard to believe he lost all hope knowing they were one of, if not the best home team last season. They also have won in Boston before. So I'm guessing he didn't go into game 5 in Cleveland with no intention of giving his all. I doubt he would give up his hopes of a title because he was tied 2-2 with the Celtics with two left in Cleveland.

Then the blowout occurs. Did he quit? Maybe after they were down 20 in the 3rd. I definitely believe in the final minute or two of game 6 he gave up. Giving up and quitting on the team are slightly different, but to some perhaps they are the same.

BUT.... Any way you slice it, the Celtics were up 3-2 on the Cavs before LeBron possibly could have quit. You say no way the Celtics could possibly prevail? I beg to differ.

Nothing is more blinding than green goggles.

Game 4, all Cavs starters in double figures to just 3 Celtics. Shaq/Varejao 25 pts, Perk/Sheed 3.

4th Q score 74-72.

He takes just 6 shots in 12 minutes, missing 4 including a layup. Anyone who knows his "normal" game vs the Celtics knows he tanked - it's OBVIOUS!

Game 5, if you watch it again, the standing alone near halfcourt on offense is ridiculous he takes almost no shots the 1st half- I don't see how anyone could ignore it.

Personally, I think the Delonte thing is the most likely reason, followed by the decision to leave, and being mad about something.

But whatever it wqas, everybody saw it, and only Celtics fans, Heat fans, and LeBron fans deny it.

  I think almost all of the "LeBron quit" or "Orlando quit" crowd just didn't appreciate what they were seeing from the Celtics. Not to mention that LeBron's "great" game 3 was countered by Rondo's historic game 4. You seem to think that James is some unstoppable force and the Cavs can't be beat unless he "quits", ignoring the fact that he's been stopped by someone every year he's been in the league.

I believe what I've seen - which is that the Celtics couldn't stop him (he averaged 37 ppg against the Celtics, but then just 21.3 in the "quit" games)- but if he only has 2 shot attempts in the 1st half of game 5, that was Celtics defense?

Yep, that standing on the weakside between halfcourt and the 3-pt line while his teammates went 4 on 5 in game 5 was CLEARLY due to "what they were seeing from the Celtics."

Please.

In the playoffs in '09, was he stopped (38 ppg avg)- or were the Cavs? He plays with that same effort and the C's lose in 5.

[Snakehead]

"I've seen kobe score 40 a night and then barely scrape 40% against the C's but, he didn't quit."

Exactly - Kobe had a HORRIBLE game 7 in the Finals, but didn't quit.  But LeBron's quitting was blatantly obvious - HUGE difference.

If one was to be able to determine these types of things from just watching a game. I think you could make the argument that Kobe quit in game 7 of the 08 finals vs Boston or game 7 of 06 playoffs against the Suns.  LJ while a coattail riding coward just got beat by a better team this past playoff season.  I can see where some people might think Lebron quit because it's soooo hard to wrap your head around the fact that Boston could beat Cleveland straight up.  The same Cleveland team that some people think be lucky to win 30 games w/o LJ this season.

When you see a player take control of a series with a 38-pt, 63% FG performance leading his team to a 2-1 series lead handing the Celtics their worst home playoff loss in team history suddenly play completely differently than EVER BEFORE, it's really easy to "determine these types of things".

No way the Celtics prevail if he didn't quit.

?

No way Celtics beat the Cavs if LeBron doesn't quit?.

First, when did he quit? I find it hard to believe as title contenders, he took a 2-1 series lead, took back HCA and decided "yeah, that's enough for this season, can't wait to join Wade and Bosh next season in Miami." After all, why would an MVP on the best (record) team quit immediately after blowing out the opposition?

After game 4, after losing a tough game in Boston, I also find it hard to believe he lost all hope knowing they were one of, if not the best home team last season. They also have won in Boston before. So I'm guessing he didn't go into game 5 in Cleveland with no intention of giving his all. I doubt he would give up his hopes of a title because he was tied 2-2 with the Celtics with two left in Cleveland.

Then the blowout occurs. Did he quit? Maybe after they were down 20 in the 3rd. I definitely believe in the final minute or two of game 6 he gave up. Giving up and quitting on the team are slightly different, but to some perhaps they are the same.

BUT.... Any way you slice it, the Celtics were up 3-2 on the Cavs before LeBron possibly could have quit. You say no way the Celtics could possibly prevail? I beg to differ.

Nothing is more blinding than green goggles.

Game 4, all Cavs starters in double figures to just 3 Celtics. Shaq/Varejao 25 pts, Perk/Sheed 3.

4th Q score 74-72.

He takes just 6 shots in 12 minutes, missing 4 including a layup. Anyone who knows his "normal" game vs the Celtics knows he tanked - it's OBVIOUS!

Game 5, if you watch it again, the standing alone near halfcourt on offense is ridiculous he takes almost no shots the 1st half- I don't see how anyone could ignore it.

Personally, I think the Delonte thing is the most likely reason, followed by the decision to leave, and being mad about something.

But whatever it wqas, everybody saw it, and only Celtics fans, Heat fans, and LeBron fans deny it.

  I think almost all of the "LeBron quit" or "Orlando quit" crowd just didn't appreciate what they were seeing from the Celtics. Not to mention that LeBron's "great" game 3 was countered by Rondo's historic game 4. You seem to think that James is some unstoppable force and the Cavs can't be beat unless he "quits", ignoring the fact that he's been stopped by someone every year he's been in the league.

I believe what I've seen - which is that the Celtics couldn't stop him (he averaged 37 ppg against the Celtics, but then just 21.3 in the "quit" games)- but if he only has 2 shot attempts in the 1st half of game 5, that was Celtics defense?

Yep, that standing on the weakside between halfcourt and the 3-pt line while his teammates went 4 on 5 in game 5 was CLEARLY due to "what they were seeing from the Celtics."

Please.

In the playoffs in '09, was he stopped (38 ppg avg)- or were the Cavs? He plays with that same effort and the C's lose in 5.

It actually was the Celtics defense.  LBJ had a couple games against us, but also was shut down in a few others.  Notice Kobe Game 7 for another star getting shut down by us, and LeBron's team couldn't bail him out like Kobe's did.  Also notice LBJ had 18 boards in the last game of the series... doesn't sound like a lack of effort.  He may have quit eventually on offense, but it was because of our defense and no one else on his team stepping up (and possibly the Delonte thing... I thought it was a complete joke at the time but if true it must of been a huge factor). If you're LBJ, you can't plow through 5 guys to the basket, and rarely can LBJ shoot his way out of that situation completely.

You're welcome. 

I don't get why some don't appreciate the defense we played in the Playoffs or want it to be the factor that beat these other teams.  That's like being more of a LBJ hater than a Celtic fan.  I still think the Celts D from the playoffs was the best I've ever seen most of the time.

[Celtics4ever]

38 PPG looks good on paper, doesn't it and that sure is impressive about LeBron.  I watched the games too but go look at his turnovers and FG % those games and every game and you will see that he isn't an efficient player at all.  Sure he fills up the stat sheet but he would take about as many shots as he scores to make those 38 points its not unusual to see him go like 9-22 or the like from the field.

This guy is overmarketed and over rated in my book.  I don't fear a boxer with a glass jaw and I don't fear low percentage shooting LeBron.  His FG % is vastly inflated by dunks and layups and in reality he is not a good jump shooter.  He also has padded stats in many FTAs from dirty Stern's crooked refs.

We can debate whether he gave up or it was our defense all day.  Bottom line is this kid isn't mentally tough.  Tough people don't quit or give up, he wants someone to win it for him to get the monkey off his back.   I am thankful he didn't want to come to the team that beat him.

[Snakehead]

38 PPG looks good on paper, doesn't it and that sure is impressive about LeBron.  I watched the games too but go look at his turnovers and FG % those games and every game and you will see that he isn't an efficient player at all.  Sure he fills up the stat sheet but he would take about as many shots as he scores to make those 38 points its not unusual to see him go like 9-22 or the like from the field.

This guy is overmarketed and over rated in my book.  I don't fear a boxer with a glass jaw and I don't fear low percentage shooting LeBron.  His FG % is vastly inflated by dunks and layups and in reality he is not a good jump shooter.  He also has padded stats in many FTAs from dirty Stern's crooked refs.

We can debate whether he gave up or it was our defense all day.  Bottom line is this kid isn't mentally tough.  Tough people don't quit or give up, he wants someone to win it for him to get the monkey off his back.   I am thankful he didn't want to come to the team that beat him.

Here's a list of the all time Player Effeciency Ratings:

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James^ 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal^ 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade^ 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan^ 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63

So LBJ is the leader among active players and second all time.  So he is effecient actually.  Funny you say his FG percentage is overrated because he is so skilled at getting to the rim.  Is that a negative?  You must think Rondo sucks, because LBJ isn't a great jump shooter but Rondo is a terrible one.  And certainly Shaq is a terrible jump shooter, but is one of the most effecient ever.  I guess Chamberlain and Bill Russell must also suck. If someone is not Ray Allen shooting a jumper they are no good?  There are more aspects to the game.

Certainly LBJ would be better with a better jumper, but he has a pretty good one and remains a top player despite this relative weakness to his game.

And maybe he gets some preferential calls, but stars do.  Maybe it's not right but it's been the case throughout NBA history.  Michael Jordan for example.  Or Pierce often.  This is just how it works.  LeBron is also excellent at drawing contact with his big frame and getting to the rim and people are often forced to foul him or give up a layup or dunk, so he is going to go to the line a lot.  That is a strength to his game regardless.

LBJ was not effecient in his bad games against us, no, but he is one of the most effecient players ever to play.

[BballTim]

I believe what I've seen - which is that the Celtics couldn't stop him (he averaged 37 ppg against the Celtics, but then just 21.3 in the "quit" games)- but if he only has 2 shot attempts in the 1st half of game 5, that was Celtics defense?

Yep, that standing on the weakside between halfcourt and the 3-pt line while his teammates went 4 on 5 in game 5 was CLEARLY due to "what they were seeing from the Celtics."

Please.

In the playoffs in '09, was he stopped (38 ppg avg)- or were the Cavs? He plays with that same effort and the C's lose in 5.

  In the playoffs in 09 he wasn't stopped. But then, he didn't face the Celts with a healthy KG. LeBron vs the Celts in the 08 playoffs: 27/6/8, 5.3 turnovers, 36% fg%. LeBron vs the Celts in the playoffs in 2010: 27/8/9, 4.5 turnovers, 45% fg%. So his stats in the series where he "quit" were better than his stats in the series that he didn't quit. Also, if you take out his 45 point game 7 in 08 and compare his 1st 6 games to his 6 games in 2010 he's at 24 a game on 33% shooting with 6 turnovers a game in 08.

  He played like 7 seasons in Cleveland, 2 seasons as the league MVP and 2 seasons with the best record in the league. One finals appearance, no titles. Saying he can't be stopped if he puts up a good effort is nonsensical. He played us 6 games, he killed us in 1.

[Finkelskyhook]

LeBron is also excellent at drawing contact with his big frame and getting to the rim and people are often forced to foul him or give up a layup or dunk, so he is going to go to the line a lot.  That is a strength to his game regardless.

The messiah would be great without help.  But he's devastating because he can get to the rim without dribbling.  He draws both contact and more often..."contact".  The way he's officiated has made the NBA a caracature of itself when the messiah is involved in an NBA game.  It's a disgrace that arguably the most talented player in the history of the game gets an obvious overt additional advantage every time he steps on the court.

[LilRip]

38 PPG looks good on paper, doesn't it and that sure is impressive about LeBron.  I watched the games too but go look at his turnovers and FG % those games and every game and you will see that he isn't an efficient player at all.  Sure he fills up the stat sheet but he would take about as many shots as he scores to make those 38 points its not unusual to see him go like 9-22 or the like from the field.

This guy is overmarketed and over rated in my book.  I don't fear a boxer with a glass jaw and I don't fear low percentage shooting LeBron.  His FG % is vastly inflated by dunks and layups and in reality he is not a good jump shooter.  He also has padded stats in many FTAs from dirty Stern's crooked refs.

We can debate whether he gave up or it was our defense all day.  Bottom line is this kid isn't mentally tough.  Tough people don't quit or give up, he wants someone to win it for him to get the monkey off his back.   I am thankful he didn't want to come to the team that beat him.

not efficient? because he can't shoot?? please tell me you are kidding!

look, i don't like LBJ as much as the next guy. He's egotistical, and a brat, and a quitter and all that. But i've gotta give credit where credit is due and truth is, LBJ is one heckuva baller. He's very efficient and he's a terrific passer. If you're knocking LBJ for his jump-shooting then i'm guessing you think Rondo is probably one of the worst offensive players in the league. Because LBJ has a jumpshot. Sure, it's hot-n-cold but he has buried teams with that same jumper when he's feeling it. Rondo will never be able to bury teams with his jumper.

and i don't know where you get your "he usually gets 9 for 22" statement from because last year, he averaged 10 for 20 with 10 FTA (with close to 8 FTM). If you're talking about game 3 when he went for 38, then he made 14 of 22 shots plus 8 of 9 FTs.

i'll gladly join in on the LBJ bashing but please, let's not look foolish while doing so.



- LilRip

[nba is the worst]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

[Snakehead]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

[BballTim]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

  Our defense in 08 wasn't MUCH BETTER than the defense we played in the playoffs last year. People watched the Celts play like crap for long stretches during the regular season. When we easily dispatched Cleveland everyone (who said we had no chance whatsoever in the playoffs) said the Cavs quit. When we were handling the Magic, people said that the Magic were quitting. It's just because people didn't understand what they were seeing from the Celts.

  Oh, and LeBron stormed off the court without shaking hands with the Magic last year and spent that summer hearing about how spoiled and immature he was and what a poor sport he was. That had a lot to do with how he handled himself after he lost this year. You're looking for signs that aren't there.

[LilRip]

  Our defense in 08 wasn't MUCH BETTER than the defense we played in the playoffs last year. People watched the Celts play like crap for long stretches during the regular season. When we easily dispatched Cleveland everyone (who said we had no chance whatsoever in the playoffs) said the Cavs quit. When we were handling the Magic, people said that the Magic were quitting. It's just because people didn't understand what they were seeing from the Celts.

  Oh, and LeBron stormed off the court without shaking hands with the Magic last year and spent that summer hearing about how spoiled and immature he was and what a poor sport he was. That had a lot to do with how he handled himself after he lost this year. You're looking for signs that aren't there.

No, the Magic didn't quit. I don't think anyone said that. I didn't see it in the games and coincidentally, none of the analysis i read said that either. The magic were outplayed, simple as that. We weren't sweep-worthy better than them, but i thought we could've wrapped it up in 5 or 6 (which is what we did).

But i'm not buying your Lebron story. you think Lebron is the type to change who he is in order to accomodate others' feelings? No, he was unapologetic then and i bet he's unapologetic now. He's gone on record to say that he was right in not shaking the Magic's hands and also to say he was right in airing the Decision. He's said that he would do the Decision again, even in hindsight.

He quit. Probably somewhere in the middle of game 5 and for most of game 6. The cavs didn't, as Mo-Will and Varejao and co were still playing hard, but Lebron did. You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs.

now, i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. But let's put it this way..

The LBJ playing for the Cavs was not the same LBJ we saw in game 7 of '08 nor was it the LBJ that scored 25 straight points during the end of the 4th qtr + OT to defeat the Pistons en route to the cavs' first Finals appearance. Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic. Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there.

Remember what he told the media right after the game 6 loss? He talked about his "team". No, not the Cavs. He was talking about his marketing team, and how the summer should be interesting. Fortunately for the sane basketball world, the Celtics-Lakers Finals matchup proved to be entertaining. If it wasn't, LBJ's impending FA Decision would've overshadowed the Finals, which is exactly how he would've wanted it.



- LilRip

[BballTim]

  Our defense in 08 wasn't MUCH BETTER than the defense we played in the playoffs last year. People watched the Celts play like crap for long stretches during the regular season. When we easily dispatched Cleveland everyone (who said we had no chance whatsoever in the playoffs) said the Cavs quit. When we were handling the Magic, people said that the Magic were quitting. It's just because people didn't understand what they were seeing from the Celts.

  Oh, and LeBron stormed off the court without shaking hands with the Magic last year and spent that summer hearing about how spoiled and immature he was and what a poor sport he was. That had a lot to do with how he handled himself after he lost this year. You're looking for signs that aren't there.

No, the Magic didn't quit. I don't think anyone said that. I didn't see it in the games and coincidentally, none of the analysis i read said that either. The magic were outplayed, simple as that. We weren't sweep-worthy better than them, but i thought we could've wrapped it up in 5 or 6 (which is what we did).

  We swept the Magic's first 2 games in Orlando and then blew them out in game three. There was plenty of talk about the Magic quitting and not putting in a decent effort after game 3. And the only reason we didn't sweep them was Rondo's leg/back spasms in the middle of the series.

But i'm not buying your Lebron story. you think Lebron is the type to change who he is in order to accomodate others' feelings? No, he was unapologetic then and i bet he's unapologetic now. He's gone on record to say that he was right in not shaking the Magic's hands and also to say he was right in airing the Decision. He's said that he would do the Decision again, even in hindsight.

  I agree he's not the type of person to apologize for childish behavior, but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson.

He quit. Probably somewhere in the middle of game 5 and for most of game 6. The cavs didn't, as Mo-Will and Varejao and co were still playing hard, but Lebron did. You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs.

  I think he figured out that the series was over when we were pulling away in the 3rd quarter of game 5 and the Cavs basically ran out of ideas on how to slow down Rondo. It's not the case that the Celts were doing well because of LeBron's play, but LeBron's play was based on our superiority.

now, i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. But let's put it this way..

The LBJ playing for the Cavs was not the same LBJ we saw in game 7 of '08 nor was it the LBJ that scored 25 straight points during the end of the 4th qtr + OT to defeat the Pistons en route to the cavs' first Finals appearance. Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic. Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there.

- LilRip

  You can't judge his play by comparing it to two of the best games he's had in the playoffs ever.

[LilRip]

No, the Magic didn't quit. I don't think anyone said that. I didn't see it in the games and coincidentally, none of the analysis i read said that either. The magic were outplayed, simple as that. We weren't sweep-worthy better than them, but i thought we could've wrapped it up in 5 or 6 (which is what we did).

  We swept the Magic's first 2 games in Orlando and then blew them out in game three. There was plenty of talk about the Magic quitting and not putting in a decent effort after game 3. And the only reason we didn't sweep them was Rondo's leg/back spasms in the middle of the series.

ok, but in actuality, did the Magic quit?? no they didn't. They came out fighting like it was the last game of the season. Dwight came out elbows swinging and everything. but back to the Lebron issue...

But i'm not buying your Lebron story. you think Lebron is the type to change who he is in order to accomodate others' feelings? No, he was unapologetic then and i bet he's unapologetic now. He's gone on record to say that he was right in not shaking the Magic's hands and also to say he was right in airing the Decision. He's said that he would do the Decision again, even in hindsight.

  I agree he's not the type of person to apologize for childish behavior, but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson.

this is pure speculation. I used speculation of my own based on his past actions and words and perceived general attitude to counter your speculation that's based on well... an assumption that deep inside, he's just like you and me. If anything, my speculation has more basis which could make it more valid. Again, we're all just speculating.

He quit. Probably somewhere in the middle of game 5 and for most of game 6. The cavs didn't, as Mo-Will and Varejao and co were still playing hard, but Lebron did. You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs.

  I think he figured out that the series was over when we were pulling away in the 3rd quarter of game 5 and the Cavs basically ran out of ideas on how to slow down Rondo. It's not the case that the Celts were doing well because of LeBron's play, but LeBron's play was based on our superiority.

And so when you "run out of ideas" to stop the opposing team's star player mid-series and you "figure that the series is over" before it actually is... what does that amount to?? *surprise!* QUITTING! which is exactly my point. He gave up on his team.

now, i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. But let's put it this way..

The LBJ playing for the Cavs was not the same LBJ we saw in game 7 of '08 nor was it the LBJ that scored 25 straight points during the end of the 4th qtr + OT to defeat the Pistons en route to the cavs' first Finals appearance. Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic. Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there.

- LilRip

  You can't judge his play by comparing it to two of the best games he's had in the playoffs ever.

true, but you can compare the effort level. He left everything out there on the court in those 2 games. Again, to quote myself on some statements you might've missed...

1)"Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic." so i'm not comparing it entirely on two of the best games he's had. I coupled that statement with..

2)Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there. which means that the LBJ who lost in that Magic series (feel free to include the '08 Celtics series and the Pistons series he won) fought to survive a heckuva lot harder than the LBJ we faced in our series, and

3)i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. you talk as if winning the Cleveland series was a sure thing and we obviously would've won it. My stance is that it could've gone either way much like the Lakers series. but the fact that LBJ quit pretty much sealed the Cavs' fate in the final 2 games. Imagine if Kobe or Gasol had quit in that series and just put in a lackluster effort.



- LilRip

[BballTim]

No, the Magic didn't quit. I don't think anyone said that. I didn't see it in the games and coincidentally, none of the analysis i read said that either. The magic were outplayed, simple as that. We weren't sweep-worthy better than them, but i thought we could've wrapped it up in 5 or 6 (which is what we did).

  We swept the Magic's first 2 games in Orlando and then blew them out in game three. There was plenty of talk about the Magic quitting and not putting in a decent effort after game 3. And the only reason we didn't sweep them was Rondo's leg/back spasms in the middle of the series.

ok, but in actuality, did the Magic quit?? no they didn't. They came out fighting like it was the last game of the season. Dwight came out elbows swinging and everything. but back to the Lebron issue...

  Were they trying their hardest when we were beating them in game 3? No. You're judging them by a different standard than you're judging James by.

But i'm not buying your Lebron story. you think Lebron is the type to change who he is in order to accomodate others' feelings? No, he was unapologetic then and i bet he's unapologetic now. He's gone on record to say that he was right in not shaking the Magic's hands and also to say he was right in airing the Decision. He's said that he would do the Decision again, even in hindsight.

  I agree he's not the type of person to apologize for childish behavior, but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson.

this is pure speculation. I used speculation of my own based on his past actions and words and perceived general attitude to counter your speculation that's based on well... an assumption that deep inside, he's just like you and me. If anything, my speculation has more basis which could make it more valid. Again, we're all just speculating.

  Of course I'm not assuming that, dedp down, he's just like you and me. I never said anything of the sort.

He quit. Probably somewhere in the middle of game 5 and for most of game 6. The cavs didn't, as Mo-Will and Varejao and co were still playing hard, but Lebron did. You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs.

  I think he figured out that the series was over when we were pulling away in the 3rd quarter of game 5 and the Cavs basically ran out of ideas on how to slow down Rondo. It's not the case that the Celts were doing well because of LeBron's play, but LeBron's play was based on our superiority.

And so when you "run out of ideas" to stop the opposing team's star player mid-series and you "figure that the series is over" before it actually is... what does that amount to?? *surprise!* QUITTING! which is exactly my point. He gave up on his team.

  Okay, I'll gie you this one. I should have been more explicit in my argument. I was disagreeing with the poster who said we beat the Cavs because LeBron quit, when in reality we beat the Cavs and *then* he quit. Did he give up on game 5 when we were pulling away late in the 3rd and they weren't going to come back? Maybe. Did he play as poorly in game 6 before we were up 10 or so late in the game? No. Again, kind of like the Magic giving up in game 3 but not "quitting".

now, i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. But let's put it this way..

The LBJ playing for the Cavs was not the same LBJ we saw in game 7 of '08 nor was it the LBJ that scored 25 straight points during the end of the 4th qtr + OT to defeat the Pistons en route to the cavs' first Finals appearance. Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic. Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there.

- LilRip

  You can't judge his play by comparing it to two of the best games he's had in the playoffs ever.

true, but you can compare the effort level. He left everything out there on the court in those 2 games. Again, to quote myself on some statements you might've missed...

1)"Heck, it wasn't even the same LBJ that played in that 4-1 defeat to the Magic." so i'm not comparing it entirely on two of the best games he's had. I coupled that statement with..

2)Regardless of our defense, his aggressiveness was not there. which means that the LBJ who lost in that Magic series (feel free to include the '08 Celtics series and the Pistons series he won) fought to survive a heckuva lot harder than the LBJ we faced in our series, and

3)i don't know if we would've prevailed against them if LBJ didn't quit or if the outcome would've been the same. The series was tied 2-2 after all. you talk as if winning the Cleveland series was a sure thing and we obviously would've won it. My stance is that it could've gone either way much like the Lakers series. but the fact that LBJ quit pretty much sealed the Cavs' fate in the final 2 games. Imagine if Kobe or Gasol had quit in that series and just put in a lackluster effort.



- LilRip
[/quote]

  By the time we were up 15 or so in the 3rd in game 5, it was all over but the shouting. Even if you look at game 6, could you say that his game 7 performance from 2008 {45/5/6) was tremendously better statistically than his game 6 performance this year (27/19/10)?

[Celtics18]

I would say that Lebron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers were beaten into submission by last year's Celtics.  That seems like a more apt description of what happened than to call it quitting. 

The Cs defense was absolutely stifling in games 4 through 6, which carried over to games 1-3 of the Orlando series.

Lebron didn't know how to counter the Celtics D.  It wasn't a case of him not wanting to.  He was being smothered, and not shown good lanes to the basket so he tried to get his teammates involved.  Unfortunately, for the Cavs, the Boston defense was very good at recovering to the other players.  The whole Cleveland team looked frustrated and out of sync in the last three games of that series.

Celtics fans are never going to buy the theory that if only Lebron James were trying harder, we would have never beaten the Cleveland Cavaliers.  That's hogwash.  The media sells the invincibility of the big stars, and the fans buy it.  When a defensive performance like the one put on by last year's Celtics comes along folks have been so brainwashed into the star worship mentality that they don't even know how to recognize it for what it is. 


The media leads the "what's wrong with Lebron?" brigade, and a lot of the fans follow along. 

Luckily, alot of us Celtic fans have been conditioned by our team to appreciate great D and unselfish play as the formula for success.  At this point, we wouldn't have it any other way.  The dismantling of Lebron and the Lebronettes in last year's playoffs was Celtics basketball at its finest.  I don't expect everybody to appreciate it, but it certainly is worthwhile when you do.