Barkley going after James...again!!

[LilRip]

 Were they trying their hardest when we were beating them in game 3? No. You're judging them by a different standard than you're judging James by.

...

when in reality we beat the Cavs and *then* he quit.

and yet, what did the Magic say in their press-con? Did Dwight and Jameer go out and say "well, it's not my fault we're losing". They said something along the lines of "we're coming back. No team has ever come back from 3-0. But anything can happen". LBJ quit on his team and decided to save face. the Magic didn't quit. They didn't want to go home yet and be swept. LBJ stopped caring.

You seem to have blurred the lines here. Quitting in a game because you're down big with no time left (like LA in game 6 back in '08) is not the same as quitting on your team. That LA team we faced in '08 didn't quit even though we blew them out of the water in that final game. Did Kobe quit then? No, even if he was just riding the bench. Did Kobe quit after game 4 when they went down 3-1? No.

yet, LBJ did. And that sealed the fate of the Cavs.

being down 3-2 is not as final as you make it seem. Teams can still come back from that. We should know, seeing as how that's happened to us for 2 consecutive years now. "We beat the Cavs and then lebron quit". yeah right. We were up by double digits with a lot of time left. How is that equivalent to beating them?

 Of course I'm not assuming that, dedp down, he's just like you and me. I never said anything of the sort.

then i'm curious where you got your notion of "but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson."

 By the time we were up 15 or so in the 3rd in game 5, it was all over but the shouting.

so i suppose playoff series are decided in 5 games then huh. If that were true, we would've been '10 champs and not LA. it was a competitive series. Game 1 we were competitive but we couldn't stop them down the stretch. Game 2, we blow them out. Game 3, we get blown out. Game 4 is a game we won because of Rondo's career game. game 5 is when LBJ stopped caring. you think a 15-pt lead (i'm taking your word for this because i don't remember the exact scores at the exact moments) is insurmountable with over a quarter and a half to go? They beat us even when they were down 9 with less than half a quarter to go in game 1! Heck, LA beat us in game 7 even when we were up big too. And i think they only had around 9 min or less to do it.

Even if you look at game 6, could you say that his game 7 performance from 2008 {45/5/6) was tremendously better statistically than his game 6 performance this year (27/19/10)?

turning a blind eye on his 9 turnovers and paltry FG%, statistically, no it's not. In the same light, was Rondo's performance statistically better than LBJ's? No. But which one had more impact? Which performance had heart and desire written all over it? I don't think you can quantify it in a stat but Rondo's performance was more dominant than LBJ's trip-dub. as i said before, "You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs."

game 5 was honestly a joke yet LBJ still registered a 15-6-7. that's a pretty respectable line.



- LilRip

[BballTim]

 Were they trying their hardest when we were beating them in game 3? No. You're judging them by a different standard than you're judging James by.

...

when in reality we beat the Cavs and *then* he quit.

and yet, what did the Magic say in their press-con? Did Dwight and Jameer go out and say "well, it's not my fault we're losing". They said something along the lines of "we're coming back. No team has ever come back from 3-0. But anything can happen". LBJ quit on his team and decided to save face. the Magic didn't quit. They didn't want to go home yet and be swept. LBJ stopped caring.

You seem to have blurred the lines here. Quitting in a game because you're down big with no time left (like LA in game 6 back in '08) is not the same as quitting on your team. That LA team we faced in '08 didn't quit even though we blew them out of the water in that final game. Did Kobe quit then? No, even if he was just riding the bench. Did Kobe quit after game 4 when they went down 3-1? No.

yet, LBJ did. And that sealed the fate of the Cavs.

being down 3-2 is not as final as you make it seem. Teams can still come back from that. We should know, seeing as how that's happened to us for 2 consecutive years now. "We beat the Cavs and then lebron quit". yeah right. We were up by double digits with a lot of time left. How is that equivalent to beating them?

 Of course I'm not assuming that, dedp down, he's just like you and me. I never said anything of the sort.

then i'm curious where you got your notion of "but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson."

 By the time we were up 15 or so in the 3rd in game 5, it was all over but the shouting.

so i suppose playoff series are decided in 5 games then huh. If that were true, we would've been '10 champs and not LA. it was a competitive series. Game 1 we were competitive but we couldn't stop them down the stretch. Game 2, we blow them out. Game 3, we get blown out. Game 4 is a game we won because of Rondo's career game. game 5 is when LBJ stopped caring. you think a 15-pt lead (i'm taking your word for this because i don't remember the exact scores at the exact moments) is insurmountable with over a quarter and a half to go? They beat us even when they were down 9 with less than half a quarter to go in game 1! Heck, LA beat us in game 7 even when we were up big too. And i think they only had around 9 min or less to do it.

Even if you look at game 6, could you say that his game 7 performance from 2008 {45/5/6) was tremendously better statistically than his game 6 performance this year (27/19/10)?

turning a blind eye on his 9 turnovers and paltry FG%, statistically, no it's not. In the same light, was Rondo's performance statistically better than LBJ's? No. But which one had more impact? Which performance had heart and desire written all over it? I don't think you can quantify it in a stat but Rondo's performance was more dominant than LBJ's trip-dub. as i said before, "You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs."

game 5 was honestly a joke yet LBJ still registered a 15-6-7. that's a pretty respectable line.



- LilRip

  In order:

  If you want to go by press conferences, LeBron volunteered to guard Rondo since nobody else could before game 5. I don't think that qualifies as someone who's stopped caring.

  Did it bother him that he was widely attacked for storming off the court, and when it was pointed out that other current and all-time greats conducted themselves better than him? Probably. Does that make him like you and me? No. It's just part of his narcissism. A lot of arrogant players will tell you they don't pay attention to what others say about them. LeBron, apparently, keeps track of things like that.

  Being up 3-2 in the Cavs series and the Lakers series weren't the same at all. Against the Cavs we gave away game 1 when we were in control of it in the middle of the 3rd quarter, controlled game 2, got blown out in game 3, and controlled games 4 and blew them out in game 5. We were dominating them that series. The LA series was much more of a tossup after game 5.

  LeBron's shot worse in game 6 (8-21) than in the 08 game 7 (14-29) but, for a single game, not tremendously worse. He was also playing against a much more experienced opponent. My point was, while it wasn't exactly as good, it wasn't wildly worse. 27 points and 10 assists is 47+ points. 45 points and 6 assists is 57+ points. So you get 10 more points in 08, but 8 more possessions (even accounting for all of those turnovers) in this year's game 6.

[nba is the worst]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

[BballTim]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

  People are talking about the postseason, not the regular season. Unfortunately for the Cavs they weren't playing the Celtics team that spent the last few months of the season waiting for the playoffs to begin.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

  Can you do that for the 08 playoffs? How could LeBron score 12 points on 18 shots with 10 turnovers in game 1 and 45 points on 29 shots in game 7? Is such a thing even possible? And how did he score 21 points on 24 shots in game 2 with 7 turnovers and score 35 points on 25 shots in game 5? How is it possible that he doesn't play the same, game in and game out?

  This is just silliness.

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

  Didn't Shaq and Varejao also quit? Rondo outrebounded them by 13 (Shaq) and 15 (AV). What quitters. And then you have those quitters Williams, Carter, West, Jamison, Moon and Hickson, all of whom were greatly outrebounded by  Rondo. Did I miss anyone?

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

  Sure, those meaningless late season games are *really* the best way to judge these things.

[LilRip]

 Were they trying their hardest when we were beating them in game 3? No. You're judging them by a different standard than you're judging James by.

...

when in reality we beat the Cavs and *then* he quit.

and yet, what did the Magic say in their press-con? Did Dwight and Jameer go out and say "well, it's not my fault we're losing". They said something along the lines of "we're coming back. No team has ever come back from 3-0. But anything can happen". LBJ quit on his team and decided to save face. the Magic didn't quit. They didn't want to go home yet and be swept. LBJ stopped caring.

You seem to have blurred the lines here. Quitting in a game because you're down big with no time left (like LA in game 6 back in '08) is not the same as quitting on your team. That LA team we faced in '08 didn't quit even though we blew them out of the water in that final game. Did Kobe quit then? No, even if he was just riding the bench. Did Kobe quit after game 4 when they went down 3-1? No.

yet, LBJ did. And that sealed the fate of the Cavs.

being down 3-2 is not as final as you make it seem. Teams can still come back from that. We should know, seeing as how that's happened to us for 2 consecutive years now. "We beat the Cavs and then lebron quit". yeah right. We were up by double digits with a lot of time left. How is that equivalent to beating them?

 Of course I'm not assuming that, dedp down, he's just like you and me. I never said anything of the sort.

then i'm curious where you got your notion of "but I disagree that he's not the type of person to (on occasion) change his behavior. The guy's an idiot, but he learns the occasional lesson."

 By the time we were up 15 or so in the 3rd in game 5, it was all over but the shouting.

so i suppose playoff series are decided in 5 games then huh. If that were true, we would've been '10 champs and not LA. it was a competitive series. Game 1 we were competitive but we couldn't stop them down the stretch. Game 2, we blow them out. Game 3, we get blown out. Game 4 is a game we won because of Rondo's career game. game 5 is when LBJ stopped caring. you think a 15-pt lead (i'm taking your word for this because i don't remember the exact scores at the exact moments) is insurmountable with over a quarter and a half to go? They beat us even when they were down 9 with less than half a quarter to go in game 1! Heck, LA beat us in game 7 even when we were up big too. And i think they only had around 9 min or less to do it.

Even if you look at game 6, could you say that his game 7 performance from 2008 {45/5/6) was tremendously better statistically than his game 6 performance this year (27/19/10)?

turning a blind eye on his 9 turnovers and paltry FG%, statistically, no it's not. In the same light, was Rondo's performance statistically better than LBJ's? No. But which one had more impact? Which performance had heart and desire written all over it? I don't think you can quantify it in a stat but Rondo's performance was more dominant than LBJ's trip-dub. as i said before, "You can't really play too poorly when you're as good as LBJ because you have natural instincts to play well, however his heart was not into it. And talent without heart can't win in the playoffs."

game 5 was honestly a joke yet LBJ still registered a 15-6-7. that's a pretty respectable line.



- LilRip

  In order:

  If you want to go by press conferences, LeBron volunteered to guard Rondo since nobody else could before game 5. I don't think that qualifies as someone who's stopped caring.

  Did it bother him that he was widely attacked for storming off the court, and when it was pointed out that other current and all-time greats conducted themselves better than him? Probably. Does that make him like you and me? No. It's just part of his narcissism. A lot of arrogant players will tell you they don't pay attention to what others say about them. LeBron, apparently, keeps track of things like that.

  Being up 3-2 in the Cavs series and the Lakers series weren't the same at all. Against the Cavs we gave away game 1 when we were in control of it in the middle of the 3rd quarter, controlled game 2, got blown out in game 3, and controlled games 4 and blew them out in game 5. We were dominating them that series. The LA series was much more of a tossup after game 5.

  LeBron's shot worse in game 6 (8-21) than in the 08 game 7 (14-29) but, for a single game, not tremendously worse. He was also playing against a much more experienced opponent. My point was, while it wasn't exactly as good, it wasn't wildly worse. 27 points and 10 assists is 47+ points. 45 points and 6 assists is 57+ points. So you get 10 more points in 08, but 8 more possessions (even accounting for all of those turnovers) in this year's game 6.

and if we're going by press conferences, we all heard him deflecting any of the blame to be put on his shoulders. Something i'm pretty sure he's never said before. And him talking about his marketing team after the elimination game rather than his real team at the time, the Cavs. yeah, that was weird.

yeah, Lebron keeps tracks of things like that as we've learned in this summer. But if he didn't tweet that, then we probably wouldn't have known that. Regardless, the point that matters to our discussion right now is that after being eliminated by the Magic, he was furious. the Cavs had the number 1 seed and they were the odds-on fave to come out in the East. That's pretty much the same as this year. However, this year, after being eliminated, he wasn't mad at all.

and as for LA and the Cavs being wildly different, i wouldn't completely agree. the reason why we looked so dominating is because Lebron had already quit in games 5 and 6. but if you look at how we got to 2-2, it wasn't in dominating fashion. We needed one of those all-time performances from Rondo to win game 4. And the Cavs took game 1 when they woke up in the 2nd half to make up for a lackluster effort in the first half. It's funny how you say we gave away game 1 because then that'd entail a lack of effort on our part. We just got outplayed down the stretch by a good team. It happens. Game 2, we won. and Game 3, we lost.

point is, we still could've won the series even if LBJ didn't quit. The series being tied 2-2 reflects that, i think. However, the fact that LBJ quit made it an almost certainty that the Cavs wouldn't be able to advance. Same goes for that LA series. It was close. but if Rondo had quit on us when he saw our frontline getting outworked by LA, do you think it still would've gone 7 games? Coz i think we would've lost in 6 if any one of our big players wasn't in it completely. Heart matters. And LBJ didn't have enough of that. That sealed the Cavs' fate more than us being allegedly so dominant that they shouldn't even have bothered lacing up for game 6 because we owned them so hard all throughout.

and indeed, stats were there. i might also add that registering 15-6-7 isn't a bad line either. That's about his average except for the scoring. and yet, he sucked in that game 5.



- LilRip

[BballTim]

  If LeBron doesn't always deflect blame from himself with his words, he does with his actions. Again, his offering to try and guard Rondo doesn't sound like a guy who doesn't care whether his team loses or not. I disagree that everyone's reaction to his behavior after that Orlando series had nothing to do with his behavior after the Celts series. And I'm sorry but the Cavs series was all but over after game 5, and game 5 was all but over after we came out strong in the 3rd period. If you didn't see a difference between the Cavs series and the LA series I don't know what to say.

[nba is the worst]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

  People are talking about the postseason, not the regular season. Unfortunately for the Cavs they weren't playing the Celtics team that spent the last few months of the season waiting for the playoffs to begin.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

  Can you do that for the 08 playoffs? How could LeBron score 12 points on 18 shots with 10 turnovers in game 1 and 45 points on 29 shots in game 7? Is such a thing even possible? And how did he score 21 points on 24 shots in game 2 with 7 turnovers and score 35 points on 25 shots in game 5? How is it possible that he doesn't play the same, game in and game out?

  This is just silliness.

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

  Didn't Shaq and Varejao also quit? Rondo outrebounded them by 13 (Shaq) and 15 (AV). What quitters. And then you have those quitters Williams, Carter, West, Jamison, Moon and Hickson, all of whom were greatly outrebounded by  Rondo. Did I miss anyone?

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

  Sure, those meaningless late season games are *really* the best way to judge these things.

I'm enjoying the selective ignoring of the points I made.

Nothing about how the Celtics' defense was CLEARLY superior in '08, holding their opponents to a phenomenal 88.8 pts on .426 FG, doubling the avg victory margin of the '10 Celts - yet the Cavs were able to win the home games.

Nothing about what the difference in the CELTICS was between game 3 and game 4, nothing about how in game 4 the Cavs centers controlled the Celts, that the game was totally winnable, and we saw far less than previously typical effort from LeBron in 4th quarters.

Look at LeBrons' scoring in the 4th Q in the key games in '08 - he had 10 pts in the 4th in game 5, and 13 in game 7. In '10, it's 5 pts in game 4, 3 pts on 3 shots in game 5, and the 10-pts in the elimination game with the "those last two games were too obvious" triple double, where he couldn't wait to get off the court, take off the Cavs jersey, and shake hands with the Celtics.

And as for the oft-repeated cliche that the Celtics never played motivated in the regular season, that is belied by the games where they did play hard, vs their rivals like the Lakers, Magic, and Cavs...

I guess my main point is that when you see the kind of effort LeBron gave against the Celtics versus the effort LeQuit did, the stats are irrelevant other than to show the trends. Why did all the analysts and commentators mention it, if it wasn't OBVIOUS?
 
LilRip's points about his demeanor are also telling. He sent a big message to his teammates and fans, and the Celtics were the beneficiaries.

"None are as blind as those who refuse to see" (due to green goggles)...

[BballTim]

Funny how Snakehead and BballTim just look at part of the story...

In the '08 series, each team won all their home games. Despite a MUCH BETTER C's defense that year, HCA was the difference.

I watched LeBron score at will vs the Celtics this season, and then suddenly quit putting out normal effort in games 4 and 5, then (IMO concerned that he had been too obvious) playing better, but still tanking game 6.

You guys can give credit to the C's defense all you want, but it doesn't explain his standing around near halfcourt on multiple possessions in game 5, does it?

Only 14 shot attempts in a key game 5? LeBron no, LeQUIT, yes...

Compare him storming off the court without handshakes after losing to the Magic in '09 to pulling off his Cavs jersey and shaking hands with the Celtics after leading his team to 3 straight losses this season...

We played pretty good defense in the regular season last year, but in the post season it was on a completely different level.  LeBron doing work on our defense during the regular season does not compare at all to the post season.  Practically two different Celtics teams.  And in '08 our defense was not much better than it was last year, in fact I would say our defense last year was just as good if not better.  IMO better, but at least as good.

LeBron's teammates stand around in the half court and watch him try to make plays.  Every time he touched the ball there was a defender up in him and at least two ready to step in and help on penetration.  And again no help from anyone, other than spot up shooting.

The Celtics defense actually does explain LBJ standing around on certain posessions because any time he touched the ball he would be swarmed and not allowed to penetrate.  The Cavs offensive sets, if that's what you are crticisizing, are to blame as well.  Mike Brown as an offensive coach is pitiful.  His schemes did nothing but iso for James.  And since LeBron is not a great jump shooter, and is effecient (deciding not to jack up jumpers for the sake of it, unless he absolutely has to) he will not try to just chuck up jumpers from the perimeter too much.

But I pointed to stats that proved you completely wrong.  You can just have your "LeQuit" statements or whatever, me and Tim had actual factual information.  LeBron can be stopped by great defense if he does not have teammates who help him out.  That was the case in Cleveland and we beat him with our defense and enough offensive plays.

Lol at facts and statistics and logic only being "part of the story"... you can have the other parts, whatever they are.

You posted no stats that proved me wrong - unless him scoring 10 pts below his average and having 9 turnovers proves he didn't quit.

The stats show the C's defense WAS significantly better in '08, and the team finished 16 games better, only gave up 90.3 pts against (5.3 points lower than this year -while scoring 100.5 - yielding a 10.3 avg margin, compared with this year's 3.7).

So any claims you have of using facts and statistics and logic are certainly suspect.

  People are talking about the postseason, not the regular season. Unfortunately for the Cavs they weren't playing the Celtics team that spent the last few months of the season waiting for the playoffs to begin.

No one has explained any difference in the C's defense in game 3 where Lebron scored 38 pts on 22 shots and game 4 where he scored 22 on 18, including 0-5 on threes and 7 TOs...

  Can you do that for the 08 playoffs? How could LeBron score 12 points on 18 shots with 10 turnovers in game 1 and 45 points on 29 shots in game 7? Is such a thing even possible? And how did he score 21 points on 24 shots in game 2 with 7 turnovers and score 35 points on 25 shots in game 5? How is it possible that he doesn't play the same, game in and game out?

  This is just silliness.

Remember game 4, where Shaq/Varejao outscored Perk/Sheed 25-3, and every Cavs starter was in double figures to just 3 Celtics, and the Cavs only trailed by 2 to start the 4th? Then LeQUIT - he scored 5 pts on 6 shots in the 4th, and for the game allowed a PG 7" shorter to outrebound him by 10 boards.

  Didn't Shaq and Varejao also quit? Rondo outrebounded them by 13 (Shaq) and 15 (AV). What quitters. And then you have those quitters Williams, Carter, West, Jamison, Moon and Hickson, all of whom were greatly outrebounded by  Rondo. Did I miss anyone?

My opinion is based on what I've seen him do vs the C's - like in Game 3, or that 4th Q comeback in Boston on 4/4 after the Cavs had already clinched best record - erasing a 22-pt lead and then losing at the buzzer when he went for a winning three instead of a tying 2. He scored 45, including 20 in the 4th Q.

But this time, scoring 5 in the 4th is not due to him quitting?

It's understandable that C's fans don't want to see that it was that missing effort that lost the Cavs the series IN GAME 4, followed up by that classic tank job in game 5 at home, where he also CLEARLY quit.

  Sure, those meaningless late season games are *really* the best way to judge these things.

I'm enjoying the selective ignoring of the points I made.

Nothing about how the Celtics' defense was CLEARLY superior in '08, holding their opponents to a phenomenal 88.8 pts on .426 FG, doubling the avg victory margin of the '10 Celts - yet the Cavs were able to win the home games.

Nothing about what the difference in the CELTICS was between game 3 and game 4, nothing about how in game 4 the Cavs centers controlled the Celts, that the game was totally winnable, and we saw far less than previously typical effort from LeBron in 4th quarters.

Look at LeBrons' scoring in the 4th Q in the key games in '08 - he had 10 pts in the 4th in game 5, and 13 in game 7. In '10, it's 5 pts in game 4, 3 pts on 3 shots in game 5, and the 10-pts in the elimination game with the "those last two games were too obvious" triple double, where he couldn't wait to get off the court, take off the Cavs jersey, and shake hands with the Celtics.

And as for the oft-repeated cliche that the Celtics never played motivated in the regular season, that is belied by the games where they did play hard, vs their rivals like the Lakers, Magic, and Cavs...

I guess my main point is that when you see the kind of effort LeBron gave against the Celtics versus the effort LeQuit did, the stats are irrelevant other than to show the trends. Why did all the analysts and commentators mention it, if it wasn't OBVIOUS?
 
LilRip's points about his demeanor are also telling. He sent a big message to his teammates and fans, and the Celtics were the beneficiaries.

"None are as blind as those who refuse to see" (due to green goggles)...

  First of all, I didn't "selectively ignore" those points, I pointed out that the Celts defense in the playoffs this year was much better that in the regular season. Showing the stats from the regular seasons isn't very meaningful. Also, when you say that the Cavs were able to win the home playoff games in 08, you need to remember that the 2010 team was more of a veteran group in terms of having played together in the playoffs. In 2008 the Celts lost all three games in Atlanta as well. Also, if you watched the Celts play (I don't know if you did) then you wouldn't necessarily say that they played especially hard vs the Cavs or the Magic or the Lakers. And your "green colored glasses" comments are a little childish. The fact is the Celts were clearly the better team and LeBron would have had to play well above what's average for him for the Cavs to win.

[Celtics4ever]

I knew some bloks was going to post the player efficiencies in argument of LeBron. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Note the lower FG %  47 James to Jordan's 50.  Note the more FGA 25.1 of James to Jordan's 24.6 and less points of James  27.8 to  30.1 and those stats are career stats with Jordan's decline.

Player efficiency is great but James might rate high in it but he isn't efficent nor a winner.  I think you point squarely atr LeBron chucking threes to the big difference and he is not a good shooter.   

You can harp on the kid all you want, bottom line he ran to a friend to win him  a championship.  Morally he is coward.  We know he is quitter.   His ego is off the charts and unfounded since he has won nothing.  To me he is nothing more than Dominique Wilkins with passing ability.

[Snakehead]

I knew some bloks was going to post the player efficiencies in argument of LeBron.  

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

Note the lower FG %  47 James to Jordan's 50.  Note the more FGA 25.1 of James to Jordan's 24.6 and less points of James  27.8 to  30.1 and those stats are career stats with Jordan's decline.

Player efficiency is great but James might rate high in it but he isn't efficent nor a winner.  I think you point squarely atr LeBron chucking threes to the big difference and he is not a good shooter.  

You can harp on the kid all you want, bottom line he ran to a friend to win him  a championship.  Morally he is coward.  We know he is quitter.   His ego is off the charts and unfounded since he has won nothing.  To me he is nothing more than Dominique Wilkins with passing ability.

"Player efficiency is great but James might rate high in it but he isn't efficent nor a winner"

So you like player effeciency, and James is effecient... so he's not effecient?  

I'm really confused there, because PER is a good measure of effeciency, how is it not?  And again, Jordan is the most effecient player of all time while LBJ is second, so those stats aren't surprising.  If your big knock against James is that he isn't as good as Jordan, that leaves him seomwhere between the 2nd best player ever and the rest, so that is not a slight on his game.  If we're going to use that as a discount to players game's, then we can discount everyone not named Michael Jordan.  Don't see your point.

Turns out LBJ's numbers are excellent and he has not even reached his prime yet.  So Jordan's include his decline, LBJ probably has 3 or 4 better years ahead of him, and that's pretty conservative.  He has some miles on him but he is still only 25.

And he has never been a real chucker from 3, and he shoots about 33%, which is good.  He should take some 3's if he makes them at that rate because it stretches the floor for him and his team.  Jordan shot the same percentage for his career, though he took less most of his seasons, but considering how the NBA has become more Three focused this can be attributed to a change in style. Anyways, like I said before, shooting jumpers is not everything.  You must hate Rondo, Shaq, Bill Russell, etc.

LOL at "running to a friend to win a title"... Basketball is a team game.  I guess Pierce and Ray and KG are cowards for teaming up?  LBJ chose playing with two other great players to form a great team to win titles over his personal glory and he may have a ego but as far as the decision he made and his play on the court he is great.  Staying in Cleveland he could of probably won 3-4 more straight MVP awards but now he will have a very hard time doing so on a Miami team with other stars.  He may not have won a title yet, but he is already sacraficing to do so.

Dominique Wilkins, tho a great player, wishes he was LBJ.  That's silly.  LBJ has won many regular season games, had a Finals appearance, won back to back MVP awards, had Playoff success (if not his goal of a title) and been by far the best player and carried Cavs teams over the last 7 years... he didn't win a title but his teams were not good enough outside of him.  He has been an excellent player and now that he will play for a better team should have that team success as well as his personal stats and accomplishments.  

But I guess "morally he is a coward" for making a good basketball decision... how is he "morally a coward"?  

[BballTim]

Nothing about what the difference in the CELTICS was between game 3 and game 4, nothing about how in game 4 the Cavs centers controlled the Celts, that the game was totally winnable, and we saw far less than previously typical effort from LeBron in 4th quarters.

  By the way, I'm still waiting for you to explain the difference in the way LeBron (or the Celtics, if you prefer) played in the 08 series. It's nonsensical to ignore other instances I noted of similar differences in his play because they don't fit with your whole conspiracy theory. Oh, and did you notice that in game 4 Cleveland's centers "controlled the Celtics" by combining to get 4 fewer point and TEN fewer rebounds that the Celt's POINT GUARD?

  And look at game 2 vs the Lakers, when Bynum and Gasol outscored KG and Perk 46-18 and combined for 13 blocks. The Lakers lost that game. Does that mean that Kobe's a quitter?

[MMacOH]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit.  He couldn't care less whether he won or lost.  He knew he was leaving.

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.  I will never have an issue of him wanting to play with his friends to win a title.  I get it, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.  That being said, be a man and admit you want to leave and accept responsibility for it

[Snakehead]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

Don't look at numbers, watch the game.  Watch his intensity.  He quit.  He couldn't care less whether he won or lost.  He knew he was leaving.

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.  I will never have an issue of him wanting to play with his friends to win a title.  I get it, if you can't beat 'em join 'em.  That being said, be a man and admit you want to leave and accept responsibility for it

We played better D on LBJ last season than anyone ever has. What does "intensity" mean there?  His ability to do things on the court?  Because yes, that was hampered.  If you're talking about his facial expressions or something.. Idk.  He had poor body language at the end there, but again that was our defense frusterating him.  He had no help and when he was struggling against our D there was nothing to turn to for that Cleveland team.

Now let me try to understand this:

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.

So he is a coward because he "hid" behind a special which the entire point of was to show which team he had freely decidied to join (and in the case of him leaving Cleveland, which team he had decided to leave Cle for)?  If LBJ was hiding, he was bad at it, because he was "hiding" on LIVE TV and everyone could see him.

That makes zero sense.  If anything he is far from a coward, and is brash and insenstitive because he let Cleveland fans fall on their faces on live TV.  He is not a coward.  He put himself out there and stood by his decision on live TV, defending it to Wilbon right after.  And they showed him images of his jersey being burned in Cleveland.  If you want to say he is insenstitive and made a bad decision by having a special, sure, but cowardly?  How?

And he was not beat by Wade and Bosh.  They played on poor teams, one that hardly made the Playoffs and one that did not at all.  If you want to say he had to get help to be on a contending team, sure, that is true.  But there is no shame there, everyone needed great players around them to win championships, see the 80's Celts and Lakers, Pippen, Rodman, etc for Jordan, and the Lakers jumping into the position of leagues best team when Gasol was added to support Kobe.  This is nothing new, and nothing to be ashamed of.



I guess you'll pass on that whole Jordan, PER argument...

[BballTim]

Anyone who can watch the game film from games 6 and 7 against the Celtics in the playoffs in 08 and then watch the game film from games 5 AND 6 in this past year's playoffs and then try to say Lebron didn't quit isn't paying attention to the film. 

  By the same token, anyone who thought the Cavs would have won that series with a little more effort from LeBron wasn't paying attention to the series either. By the 3rd quarter of game 5 it became apparent that the Cavs had no chance of containing Rondo, that Jamison was no match for KG, that the Cavs weren't as good as the Celts or the Magic and that the Cavs had little hope of getting better in the near term. He may have managed to lose more valiantly but then he's the same guy that went to a team with an alpha dog in place to try and win with him. Not so surprising, I guess.

[MMacOH]

We played better D on LBJ last season than anyone ever has. What does "intensity" mean there?  His ability to do things on the court?  Because yes, that was hampered.  If you're talking about his facial expressions or something.. Idk.  He had poor body language at the end there, but again that was our defense frusterating him.  He had no help and when he was struggling against our D there was nothing to turn to for that Cleveland team.

Now let me try to understand this:

Lebron is 'morally a coward' because he hid behind the veil of "The Decision" instead of owning up to the fact that he wanted to leave.

So he is a coward because he "hid" behind a special which the entire point of was to show which team he had freely decidied to join (and in the case of him leaving Cleveland, which team he had decided to leave Cle for)?  If LBJ was hiding, he was bad at it, because he was "hiding" on LIVE TV and everyone could see him.

That makes zero sense.  If anything he is far from a coward, and is brash and insenstitive because he let Cleveland fans fall on their faces on live TV.  He is not a coward.  He put himself out there and stood by his decision on live TV, defending it to Wilbon right after.  And they showed him images of his jersey being burned in Cleveland.  If you want to say he is insenstitive and made a bad decision by having a special, sure, but cowardly?  How?

And he was not beat by Wade and Bosh.  They played on poor teams, one that hardly made the Playoffs and one that did not at all.  If you want to say he had to get help to be on a contending team, sure, that is true.  But there is no shame there, everyone needed great players around them to win championships, see the 80's Celts and Lakers, Pippen, Rodman, etc for Jordan, and the Lakers jumping into the position of leagues best team when Gasol was added to support Kobe.  This is nothing new, and nothing to be ashamed of.



I guess you'll pass on that whole Jordan, PER argument...

Lebron stood around and didn't try.  He would get the ball, dribble outside the 3 point line and then pass the ball off.  You can see from his facail expressions he wasn't in the game.  You can try and attribute that to good defense (the Celts plaed great defense overall), I see that as quitting. 

As for the fact that going on National TV proves he isn't a coward.  Please.  He couldn't even look his former owner in the face and tell him he was leaving.  He wasn't even man enought o call him, he had his friend call for him.  That is being a coward.