Doc states the obvious: Rondo's jumper needs work

[BballTim]

Its an excuse, and when you let an excuse become a reason then you have accepted a liability.

  Did you read that on a bumper sticker somewhere?

When shooting you don't palm it anyways the ball is supposed to be off the hand on the finger tips.   If its in the palm resting on the hand then that is the problem and your lobbing up there not shooting it.  It does happen sometimes and the ball slips and one will shoot it palmed and its usually a miss in traffic but not at the FT line.

Nothing is funnier to me when peeps comment on stuff that they have not experienced or do not know what its like.   Like a 6'2" who pretends he is hampered by tallness or a 42 inch chest guy who thinks he is huge and has trouble finding clothers.

  So this, of course, means that you've shot foul shots with hands as big as Rondo's? Do you have any pictures of this?

[guava_wrench]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

[droopdog7]

Not all 7'people(players)have big hands just as not all 5'people(players)have small hands.Yao has never been known for having big hands or palming the ball.Actually,i can't remember once i ever saw Yao palm the ball.Foul shooting is focus and loads of repetition involved.

I venture to say that Yao's hands are bigger than Rondo's

Maybe.  But I was surprised to hear that Rondo's hands are actually bigger than LeBron's.

[droopdog7]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

Of course, if the other two could improve their shooting, they likely wouldn't be marginal players.

[Snakehead]

Not all 7'people(players)have big hands just as not all 5'people(players)have small hands.Yao has never been known for having big hands or palming the ball.Actually,i can't remember once i ever saw Yao palm the ball.Foul shooting is focus and loads of repetition involved.

I venture to say that Yao's hands are bigger than Rondo's

Maybe.  But I was surprised to hear that Rondo's hands are actually bigger than LeBron's.

Supposedly they are about the same size as KG's.

[manl_lui]

honestly i think that rondo improving his jumper won't be huge...i think at most his FT will be in the low 80s high 70s

his jumper in my opinion has already improved, hes more confident in taking mid range shots now...

though I too would like to see his jumper be more reliable

other than that, he barely have much weaknesses, hes just been improving so much every year

[droopdog7]

Not all 7'people(players)have big hands just as not all 5'people(players)have small hands.Yao has never been known for having big hands or palming the ball.Actually,i can't remember once i ever saw Yao palm the ball.Foul shooting is focus and loads of repetition involved.

I venture to say that Yao's hands are bigger than Rondo's

Maybe.  But I was surprised to hear that Rondo's hands are actually bigger than LeBron's.

Supposedly they are about the same size as KG's.

WHo of course is a decent FT shooter.  Personally, I think that having large hands probably does effect FT shooting.  I know that it is harder for me to control those little baskebtalls more precisely that the normal ones.  But it likely isn't something that a player cannot overcome.

[Snakehead]

honestly i think that rondo improving his jumper won't be huge...i think at most his FT will be in the low 80s high 70s

his jumper in my opinion has already improved, hes more confident in taking mid range shots now...

though I too would like to see his jumper be more reliable

other than that, he barely have much weaknesses, hes just been improving so much every year

I agree he seems more confident in it and hit some more clutch jumpers, but statistically his jump shot is the same, maybe even a little worse last season I believe.

Not all 7'people(players)have big hands just as not all 5'people(players)have small hands.Yao has never been known for having big hands or palming the ball.Actually,i can't remember once i ever saw Yao palm the ball.Foul shooting is focus and loads of repetition involved.

I venture to say that Yao's hands are bigger than Rondo's

Maybe.  But I was surprised to hear that Rondo's hands are actually bigger than LeBron's.

Supposedly they are about the same size as KG's.

WHo of course is a decent FT shooter.  Personally, I think that having large hands probably does effect FT shooting.  I know that it is harder for me to control those little baskebtalls more precisely that the normal ones.  But it likely isn't something that a player cannot overcome.

I'd say I could see having hands that big while being as short as Rondo could probably throw you off shooting perhaps.  I'm not sure if that's really true but seems possible.

[manl_lui]

i believe practice make perfect

i mean i've heard many people say that having a big hand does affect your shooting %, but if Yao can shoot 80% from FT line

i think if Rondo puts in a lot of effort into shooting it will improve

KG is a good shooter? Duncan? Rasheed> Dirk? aren't those all big man

Amar'e?

I bet if Rondo took like 100 shots everyday at practice until training camp starts, his jumper will improve

[BballTim]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

Of course, if the other two could improve their shooting, they likely wouldn't be marginal players.

 Marquis hit about 46% of his 16-23 foot jumpers, well above average. Probably the best jump shooting of his career. Does that mean he *wasn't* marginal this year? That he didn't lose almost all of his minutes to someone who's outside shooting percentage from 82games was approximately half of Daniel's percentage?

[droopdog7]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

Of course, if the other two could improve their shooting, they likely wouldn't be marginal players.

 Marquis hit about 46% of his 16-23 foot jumpers, well above average. Probably the best jump shooting of his career. Does that mean he *wasn't* marginal this year? That he didn't lose almost all of his minutes to someone who's outside shooting percentage from 82games was approximately half of Daniel's percentage?

There go those stats again.  Look, Quis isn't a very good shooter and he has very limited range.  I don't need to look at stats to know that.  If he were the shooter that say PP is, then yes, he would be a much better player. 

And how do Quis' "shooting" stats compare to PP's?  If they are better or about the same (and I have NO idea), then that will tell you all you need to know about shooting stats.

[Neurotic Guy]

Does anyone have mixed feelings about Rondo's USA team involvement this off-season.  Let me put it this way -- I am glad he's doing it, it's honorable and I am glad he cares about representing his country.  I am also concerned that being on Team USA is exhausting and is less compatible with the kind of specific ad nauseum practice (Jumpers; FTs!!) that he needs in order to take his game where it needs to be next year.  In the long run, I know the experience will benefit him.  But what about the short run?

Again -- to avoid accusations of anti-patriotism -- I am glad he is on the team. But I worry whether this experience will hurt him in the upcoming year -- perhaps the final year of the Big 3 window.
 

[Snakehead]

Does anyone have mixed feelings about Rondo's USA team involvement this off-season.  Let me put it this way -- I am glad he's doing it, it's honorable and I am glad he cares about representing his country.  I am also concerned that being on Team USA is exhausting and is less compatible with the kind of specific ad nauseum practice (Jumpers; FTs!!) that he needs in order to take his game where it needs to be next year.  In the long run, I know the experience will benefit him.  But what about the short run?

Again -- to avoid accusations of anti-patriotism -- I am glad he is on the team. But I worry whether this experience will hurt him in the upcoming year -- perhaps the final year of the Big 3 window.
 

It's not too many minutes, Rondo won't really be worn down from this I don't think.

Any time you can play with All-NBA level talent for a while it is a postive IMO.  The 2008 Olympics was huge for all those guys and I think this can be big to a lesser degree for Rondo, lets be honest it's not the Olympics.  Hopefully Rondo does well and makes the next Olympic team, I think that would be really big for him.

[guava_wrench]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

Of course, if the other two could improve their shooting, they likely wouldn't be marginal players.

 Marquis hit about 46% of his 16-23 foot jumpers, well above average. Probably the best jump shooting of his career. Does that mean he *wasn't* marginal this year? That he didn't lose almost all of his minutes to someone who's outside shooting percentage from 82games was approximately half of Daniel's percentage?

Daniels is not a poor midrange shooter. He just has no range. He can't shoot 3's.

[BballTim]

 

Okay, but we both agree that Rondo is a poor shooter

  Yes, he's a below average jump shooter.

Are you denying that defenses play Rondo differently that just about any other guard in the league?  Rondo can basically have a jump shot anytime he wants.  This simply isn't the case with most other players.  And in most cases, defenders DO make a valid attempt to contest shots; not necessarily to try and block it but at least to disrupt it.  In Rondo's case, you often see a guy not even contest the shot.  They basically stand there and dare him shoot.

  I don't think that it's meaningful to discuss this in the offseason (it would be much easier if there were games to watch) but I'd say that a fair amount of 20 foot jumpshots are either uncontested or lightly contested. I don't think that all of these shots are closed out, which you seem to be claiming. I'd have to watch some games to tell if it's the same players that don't tend to get closed out when they get the ball 20 feet from the hoop.

  I've never denied that Rondo gets guarded differently some of the time. But I also think that if you took another poor shooting point guard and put him on a team with Pierce and Allen and Garnett they would be guarded the same way. It's not like they invented this type of defense for Rondo. Teams used to use it on DJ in the 80s. By the same token, when we played the Lakers, if Magic was on the outside without the ball his defender would be in the paint.

  Evidence?  I am not sure this is true at all.  I am thinking that players around the league go every which way.  Some may improve steadily throughout their career, some stay the same, and some also regress.  I am thikning there are few examples of players that actually improved a facet of their game as dramatically as many wont Rondo to improve his shooting

  I don't think this is the case, For one thing, I think there was an article on espn (something like "who's the best shooter of all time") that mentioned that most players see their fg% increase later in their careers. Secondly, while I was mainly checking guards on the main "Players" page on basketballreference that would have played during the three point era, the increase in the late 70s occurred almost every time, and many of them were poor shooters earlier on.

  I don't think it would be unusual at all for Rondo to stay about where he is as a shooter.  Look at last year's team.  Is anyone wondering why Quis or TA couldn't shoot?  After a while, guys are what they are.  And I think we have reached that point with Rondo

  First of all, TA and Daniels are both 4-5 years older than Rondo. If he were 28 I'd agree that he is what he is. Secondly, those two have probably combined for 2-3 healthy seasons in their careers, and neither of them generally play regular minutes.

There is another reason why I expect Rondo to improve more than Quis and TA. Rondo is not a marginal player. He can concentrate on improving his weak spots, where the other two constantly need to find a niche.

Of course, if the other two could improve their shooting, they likely wouldn't be marginal players.

 Marquis hit about 46% of his 16-23 foot jumpers, well above average. Probably the best jump shooting of his career. Does that mean he *wasn't* marginal this year? That he didn't lose almost all of his minutes to someone who's outside shooting percentage from 82games was approximately half of Daniel's percentage?

There go those stats again.  Look, Quis isn't a very good shooter and he has very limited range.  I don't need to look at stats to know that.  If he were the shooter that say PP is, then yes, he would be a much better player. 

And how do Quis' "shooting" stats compare to PP's?  If they are better or about the same (and I have NO idea), then that will tell you all you need to know about shooting stats.

  Of course Paul's eFG% on jumpers is much better and Quis', and that's with players all over Pierce when he shoots. For the record, when I talk about players improving their shooting I'm not discussing the kind of unheard of transformation you seem to be discussing. I'm talking about Rondo going from below average to close to average, you're talking about players going from below average to being among the best in the league.