Where does Howard rank among centers of the past 30 years?

[jr_3421]

Read though everything and here is my take:

Dwight is way too high on the original list. He simply is more athletic than all other centers today.

Maybe I missed it, but are people really leaving out Wilt Chamberlain? The guy was the most dominant player of any era (Shaq being a close second).

On the same note, I consider Russell to be a center so I would have to put him on the list as well. People saying he is too small is not a valid point. He had elite athleticism and length to keep up with Wilt which in my opinion makes him a legit center.

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

Neither Wilt not Russell played in the last 30 years.

Wow shut down lol. I guess that answers my question.

[fairweatherfan]

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

Hakeem didn't have to deal with Jordan, the Rockets never played the Bulls in the playoffs.  They made the Finals three times and won twice.  Outside of the two title runs, Hakeem had to deal with the Lakers and Celtics, and then the Blazers, Suns, and Jazz.

Hakeem's a better-rounded player, and I liked him more than Shaq, but Jordan or no Jordan, Shaq's clearly got the edge in team success and was at least comparably dominant as an individual at his peak.  I think it's close to a tossup but you probably have to give Shaq the nod.

[Brendan]

Read though everything and here is my take:

Was going to say "but not very carefully" but it already got explained.

I would also put Kareem higher if you consider the 70's possibly the top.

[Redz]

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

Hakeem didn't have to deal with Jordan, the Rockets never played the Bulls in the playoffs.  They made the Finals three times and won twice.  Outside of the two title runs, Hakeem had to deal with the Lakers and Celtics, and then the Blazers, Suns, and Jazz.

Hakeem's a better-rounded player, and I liked him more than Shaq, but Jordan or no Jordan, Shaq's clearly got the edge in team success and was at least comparably dominant as an individual at his peak.  I think it's close to a tossup but you probably have to give Shaq the nod.

Give the edge to The Dream on aesthetics. 

[ibby]

Couple of names to add to the Current Era discusion:

Amare Stoudemire
Andrew Bogut
Brook Lopez
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol

Stoudemire is essentially bizaro Howard - supreme athlete, best offensive player at his position.

Before the injury, I would have taken Bogut over Howard for these playoffs. He brings 75% of the defense and 200% of the offense.

Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol could end up having better careers, especially considering Howard's dependence on athletiscism.

Pau Gasol is much better than Howard right now.

I know that Stoudemire plays a lot of center for the Suns but I think he is truly a PF playing out of position (like Duncan who is not on this list. 

Bogut does not come close to cracking the list, maybe if he can keep his health up for a good 5-6 year stretch.

I don't know enough about Marc Gasol, but Pau Gasol is strictly a PF.

Lopez needs to lead his team to a lot more wins, but I could see him on this list in 5-10 years.

[indeedproceed]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Shaq was also more dominant because Jordan was no longer an obstacle.

Jordan was not going to deny Shaq the ball in the post..and he wasn't going to stop him from backing within an inch of the bucket, and he wasn't going to stop the pivot dunk...and considering that he played in a difference conference..if he was going to steal playoff wins it would've been Finals wins, which Hakeem never got to with Jordan, i believe.

but beyond that...you can use that argument for nearly every superstar ever...Jordan was more dominant because Larry Bird's back quit on him and Magic got sick...

[Michael Anthony]

Couple of names to add to the Current Era discusion:

Amare Stoudemire
Andrew Bogut
Brook Lopez
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol

Stoudemire is essentially bizaro Howard - supreme athlete, best offensive player at his position.

Before the injury, I would have taken Bogut over Howard for these playoffs. He brings 75% of the defense and 200% of the offense.

Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol could end up having better careers, especially considering Howard's dependence on athletiscism.

Pau Gasol is much better than Howard right now.

I know that Stoudemire plays a lot of center for the Suns but I think he is truly a PF playing out of position (like Duncan who is not on this list. 

Bogut does not come close to cracking the list, maybe if he can keep his health up for a good 5-6 year stretch.

I don't know enough about Marc Gasol, but Pau Gasol is strictly a PF.

Lopez needs to lead his team to a lot more wins, but I could see him on this list in 5-10 years.

I will grant you the point about Soudemire, but Pau Gasol was a full time center in Memphis, currently plays the majority of his minutes at center (63%) and will likely play center exclusively as he slows down.

Bogut was playing better basketball than Howard pre-injury. Not only was he blocking the same number of shots, but he fouled less, scored more and had substantially more assists. Not saying he belongs on this list, but maybe Howard does not either.

[Brendan]

Hakeem made the finals twice, neither time did he play MJ's Bulls. Jordan had nothing to do with Hakeem not winning titles: other teams in the west did (and of course Hakeem's teammates.)

MJ defeated the following teams in the finals:

LAL - 1 (4-1 in 1991)
POR - 1 (4-2 in 1992)
PHO - 1 (4-2 in 1993)
SEA - 1 (4-2 in 1996)
UTA - 2 (4-2 in 1997, 1998)

You can't explain away Hakeems lack of titles by saying MJ did it, he never faced MJ in the playoffs.

[Mr October]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Olajuwon is my number one as well. The guy dismantled Robinson and Ewing with regularity when they were all in their primes. The guy could do everything, including shoot the ball well.

Shaq had Kobe or Wade to take over when things got too tough (ie vs Duncan or Sabonis). Olajuwon never had a top 5 teammate.

But they are really close.

And yeah Howard doesn't stand up to any of the 80s/90s greats. He has no post game. Someday maybe his offense will catch up with his defense.

 Hakeem was a much better defender than Shaq. That would be the difference for me.

TP. There you go. Shaq should have been a monster on defense. For the most part he wasn't.

Hakeem was. Defense should be the tie breaker.

[guava_wrench]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Shaq was also more dominant because Jordan was no longer an obstacle.

Jordan was not going to deny Shaq the ball in the post..and he wasn't going to stop him from backing within an inch of the bucket, and he wasn't going to stop the pivot dunk...and considering that he played in a difference conference..if he was going to steal playoff wins it would've been Finals wins, which Hakeem never got to with Jordan, i believe.

but beyond that...you can use that argument for nearly every superstar ever...Jordan was more dominant because Larry Bird's back quit on him and Magic got sick...

If we are talking about perceptions of who is the dominant player in the league, Jordan matters.

If we are talking about championships, not really.

The matching up question is irrelevant to what I am saying about the dominance questions. Perceptions are very relevant, and perceptions are relative to other players in the league.

You are correct in pointing out all of the arguments that can be made. That is why questions like this can't be resolved. There are too many variables.

[guava_wrench]

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

Hakeem didn't have to deal with Jordan, the Rockets never played the Bulls in the playoffs.  They made the Finals three times and won twice.  Outside of the two title runs, Hakeem had to deal with the Lakers and Celtics, and then the Blazers, Suns, and Jazz.

Hakeem's a better-rounded player, and I liked him more than Shaq, but Jordan or no Jordan, Shaq's clearly got the edge in team success and was at least comparably dominant as an individual at his peak.  I think it's close to a tossup but you probably have to give Shaq the nod.

Team success is easy to overrate. Especially if we consider Shaq as a #2 option in Miami. When Hakeem lost to the Celtics in the finals, is that a knock on Hakeem?

[jdpapa3]

I do have to say that Dwight's offense is going a tad bit under the radar. He does score 18 a game on 60% shooting. And he does get double teamed a good amount. Sure that has a lot do with the lack of quality of the bigs in the league. Too bad for him(not really) that the 2 teams in the way of his ring are the only teams in the league that can defend him well. He beats good defenders, but he just can't beat great ones. Al Horford put up great defensive numbers this year and got to the All Star Game based on defensive reputation, but just couldn't even compete. The hook looks good until he gets a big like Perk, Pau, or Bynum on him. His offensive rebounding ability is a good amount of his offense as well.

I like where Roy has him on his list. For now. And I hope he remains there, to be honest.

[housecall]

I don't see how you could put Shaq above Kareem...Kareem has a shot outside the paint whereas Shaq is just an efficient dunker.Howard wouldn't crack my top10 best centers.

[Celtics17]

Skill wise Shaq is nowhere close to Kareem but if memory serves he did win several titles and I think he averaged almost 40 points and 20 rebounds a game in a series.

[Eja117]

For the last three games in a row I have watched Perk (who gets paid way way less and doesn't get a tenth of the hype as Supergirl) basically grab Dwight Howards hands and use them to punch his own face repeatedly, while saying "Stop punching yourself. Stop punching yourself. Stop punching yourself".

And Supergirl has been like "Pleeeasssee stop. Pleassse just stop. I never did anything to you. Why are you doing this".

I can't believe we're talking about Dwight Howard as a great center. 

I'm going to go with what my own eyes are telling me.

Even within the context of this great rebounding and great blocking center (7 rebs 0 blks last game) why are we putting him ahead of Ben Wallace who has a ring?

He's just another media appointed gimmick who did a goofy dunk.