Where does Howard rank among centers of the past 30 years?

[Kwhit10]

Dwight Howard is universally seen as the best center in the NBA.  I think that's a fair assessment, based upon his numbers and team success.  However, I still think he's a step or two down from "greatness"; he can't dominate games consistently like most of the great centers could.

Does he stack up against the great centers of the 80s and 90s?  I don't think so.  Off the top of my head (and I'm sure I'm forgetting some great players) I'd rank the centers since 1980 as follows:

1. Hakeem
1a. Shaq
3. Kareem (post-1980 version)
4. David Robinson
5. Moses Malone
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Robert Parish
8. Alonzo Mourning (in his prime)
9. Dwight Howard
10. Yao Ming (when healthy)
11. Dikembe Mutombo

Some might quibble about how high I have Parish ranked, but outside of that, is there any debate that Howard doesn't belong anywhere near the top-6 on that list?

Similarly, does anybody think that with improvements to his game, Howard can break into that top group?  I simply don't; Howard has the athleticism, but not the skill, to go down as one of the greatest centers ever.
 

Fixed it for you. Shaq is a product of the league hype. If he would have fouls called on him for his back-downs, he wouldn't have scored as much during his career. He's allowed to use his size to push people out of the way almost every time he has the ball down low. He's scoring because of his size, not skill. Not his fault I know, but he never had a good offensive game outside of dunking range. His game is due to size and power, and Imo, he's the most overrated player the league has ever seen.

Well then couldn't you say the exact same thing about Howard?  He's horrific beyond dunking range, and I doubt the people who give Howard a hard time now would have given Shaq a hard time in his prime.

[Donoghus]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

I don't think its cut & dry by any means that Shaq is better than Hakeem. 

The rings do help Shaq's argument but I don't think its the gamechanger in the debate. 

[angryguy77]

Dwight Howard is universally seen as the best center in the NBA.  I think that's a fair assessment, based upon his numbers and team success.  However, I still think he's a step or two down from "greatness"; he can't dominate games consistently like most of the great centers could.

Does he stack up against the great centers of the 80s and 90s?  I don't think so.  Off the top of my head (and I'm sure I'm forgetting some great players) I'd rank the centers since 1980 as follows:

1. Hakeem
1a. Shaq
3. Kareem (post-1980 version)
4. David Robinson
5. Moses Malone
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Robert Parish
8. Alonzo Mourning (in his prime)
9. Dwight Howard
10. Yao Ming (when healthy)
11. Dikembe Mutombo

Some might quibble about how high I have Parish ranked, but outside of that, is there any debate that Howard doesn't belong anywhere near the top-6 on that list?

Similarly, does anybody think that with improvements to his game, Howard can break into that top group?  I simply don't; Howard has the athleticism, but not the skill, to go down as one of the greatest centers ever.
 

Fixed it for you. Shaq is a product of the league hype. If he would have fouls called on him for his back-downs, he wouldn't have scored as much during his career. He's allowed to use his size to push people out of the way almost every time he has the ball down low. He's scoring because of his size, not skill. Not his fault I know, but he never had a good offensive game outside of dunking range. His game is due to size and power, and Imo, he's the most overrated player the league has ever seen.

Well then couldn't you say the exact same thing about Howard?  He's horrific beyond dunking range, and I doubt the people who give Howard a hard time now would have given Shaq a hard time in his prime.

I agree. Until Howard can develope a consistant offensive move other than a dunk, I don't think he's even close to a top ten guy.  He's great on d, but great centers should have a scoring game as well. I saw a push off on Sheed from Howard yesterday that would have made Michael Irvin jealous. Times that by 10 during a game with no call, and you have Shaq.

And I like Howard, I believe he has potential to be a dominating center. But until he gets a game that will not allow teams like use to get away with single coverage, he will just be an above average and not great center.

[GreenFaith1819]

Dwight Howard is universally seen as the best center in the NBA.  I think that's a fair assessment, based upon his numbers and team success.  However, I still think he's a step or two down from "greatness"; he can't dominate games consistently like most of the great centers could.

Does he stack up against the great centers of the 80s and 90s?  I don't think so.  Off the top of my head (and I'm sure I'm forgetting some great players) I'd rank the centers since 1980 as follows:

1. Hakeem
1a. Shaq
3. Kareem (post-1980 version)
4. David Robinson
5. Moses Malone
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Robert Parish
8. Alonzo Mourning (in his prime)
9. Dwight Howard
10. Yao Ming (when healthy)
11. Dikembe Mutombo

Some might quibble about how high I have Parish ranked, but outside of that, is there any debate that Howard doesn't belong anywhere near the top-6 on that list?

Similarly, does anybody think that with improvements to his game, Howard can break into that top group?  I simply don't; Howard has the athleticism, but not the skill, to go down as one of the greatest centers ever.
 

Fixed it for you. Shaq is a product of the league hype machine. If the refs would call the offensive foul on him like they should for his back-downs, he wouldn't have scored as much during his career. He's allowed to use his size to push people out of the way almost every time he has the ball down low. He's scoring because of his size, not skill. Not his fault I know, but he never had a good offensive game outside of dunking range. His game is due to size and power, and Imo, he's the most overrated player the league has ever seen.

 I'm convinced that you could take any guy that size and he could do the same thing as Shaq. Great players can't be duplicated, but Shaq's play can, which makes me think he shouldn't be in a top 10 discussion.

Well, I don't know....Shaq had a much more polished offensive game than Dwight (Still Does)..he was a lousy free-throw shooter, true, but he always managed to hit them when it counted, which baffles me to this day.

Yes Shaq did use his size to his advantage, but he also had some weapons to use instead of his size. As I watched his game evolve, he had a decent J..maybe not past 10-12 feet, but he had one.

Shaq had a pretty reliable Hook..soft hands around the basket...above average passer...could run the offense through him...decent rebounder...great shot-blocker.

[Who]

That is a tough question. I would put Dwight above Ewing, Mourning and Parish.

I'm not sure if I would put him any higher than that though.

Over Ewing?  Why so?  I think Ewing was probably better on both ends.  Ewing's one weakness was a perceived lack of leadership / clutchness, but Howard doesn't seem to shine in either area.

Ewing was better offensively but I think Howard is better defensively + on the backboards.

I also have no issues with Dwight Howard's leadership or his performances in big games .. and I do with Ewing.

[GreenFaith1819]

I watched a Youtube clip on Kareem a few days ago - the game back in 1986 in the Western Conference Finals VS Houston.

That man held his own against Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. Now that was a great game. LA would've gotten killed if it wasn't for Kareem.

I think that Hakeem had like 30 pts that game and Sampson had 27, but man Kareem was battling.

Ralph Sampson was a Monster back in the day, too...a 7'4" Point Forward.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

[moiso]

That is a tough question. I would put Dwight above Ewing, Mourning and Parish.

I'm not sure if I would put him any higher than that though.

Over Ewing?  Why so?  I think Ewing was probably better on both ends.  Ewing's one weakness was a perceived lack of leadership / clutchness, but Howard doesn't seem to shine in either area.

Ewing was better offensively but I think Howard is better defensively + on the backboards.

I also have no issues with Dwight Howard's leadership or his performances in big games .. and I do with Ewing.

I agree that Howard's defense is better than Ewing's. 

[GreenFaith1819]

And let us not forget that Shaq gave our Captain his beloved Nickname:

"The Truth.".....right there in Boston. For that reason among others, Shaq gets much respect from me

[incoherent]

I wouldn't put him past Rik Smits yet.

[Prof. Clutch]

BTW, its amazing to me that Duncan has truly managed to shape his legacy so that he's widely considered a PF and not a C.

Can someone explain to me why a 7 footer whose game centers around playing in the post is not a Center?

My take on your question is because Tim Duncan has historically been matched up against the PFs of the opposing teams throughout his career.

He had David to take on Shaq, Patrick, Hakeem, etc. He did not spend a great amount of time on either team's opposing centers throughout the years.

I actually found a somewhat recent cool article from slamonline.com on exactly this subject.
http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/04/tim-duncans-a-power-forward-and-the-best-ever/

[Roy Hobbs]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

He won a title with 32 year old Drexler.  He couldn't win a title with a 34 year old Barkley or a 33 year old Pippen.  I don't think there's a lot of shame in that. 

[Roy Hobbs]

That is a tough question. I would put Dwight above Ewing, Mourning and Parish.

I'm not sure if I would put him any higher than that though.

Over Ewing?  Why so?  I think Ewing was probably better on both ends.  Ewing's one weakness was a perceived lack of leadership / clutchness, but Howard doesn't seem to shine in either area.

Ewing was better offensively but I think Howard is better defensively + on the backboards.

I also have no issues with Dwight Howard's leadership or his performances in big games .. and I do with Ewing.

I agree that Howard's defense is better than Ewing's. 

I think you guys both underrate Ewing's defense.  In his younger years, he was a defensive beast.  The only reason he wasn't getting a ton of All-Defense votes is because he played at the same time as other elite defensive centers, whereas Dwight currently has little to no competition.

Howard may be a marginally better rebounder, but again, a lot of that is based upon the competition he's facing.

[ibby]

Dwight Howard is universally seen as the best center in the NBA.  I think that's a fair assessment, based upon his numbers and team success.  However, I still think he's a step or two down from "greatness"; he can't dominate games consistently like most of the great centers could.

Does he stack up against the great centers of the 80s and 90s?  I don't think so.  Off the top of my head (and I'm sure I'm forgetting some great players) I'd rank the centers since 1980 as follows:

1. Hakeem
1a. Shaq
3. Kareem (post-1980 version)
4. David Robinson
5. Moses Malone
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Robert Parish
8. Alonzo Mourning (in his prime)
9. Dwight Howard
10. Yao Ming (when healthy)
11. Dikembe Mutombo

Some might quibble about how high I have Parish ranked, but outside of that, is there any debate that Howard doesn't belong anywhere near the top-6 on that list?

Similarly, does anybody think that with improvements to his game, Howard can break into that top group?  I simply don't; Howard has the athleticism, but not the skill, to go down as one of the greatest centers ever.
 

This is a very good list though I think Brad Daugherty should be on the list, and Robinson should be a little lower.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

He won a title with 32 year old Drexler.  He couldn't win a title with a 34 year old Barkley or a 33 year old Pippen.  I don't think there's a lot of shame in that. 

Pippen was a year removed from averaging 19pts, and nearly 6 boards and 6 assists. It wasn't like he was done, he was still playing elite ball.