Where does Howard rank among centers of the past 30 years?

[Roy Hobbs]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

He won a title with 32 year old Drexler.  He couldn't win a title with a 34 year old Barkley or a 33 year old Pippen.  I don't think there's a lot of shame in that. 

Pippen was a year removed from averaging 19pts, and nearly 6 boards and 6 assists. It wasn't like he was done, he was still playing elite ball.

Pippen was coming off a career low in FG% and his lowest rebounding season since his rookie year.  He was clearly in decline, and that decline became a free-fall, as he averaged 14.5 / 6 / 6 in his year with Hakeem, and declined steadily thereafter.

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

[Donoghus]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

He won a title with 32 year old Drexler.  He couldn't win a title with a 34 year old Barkley or a 33 year old Pippen.  I don't think there's a lot of shame in that. 

Pippen was a year removed from averaging 19pts, and nearly 6 boards and 6 assists. It wasn't like he was done, he was still playing elite ball.

Pippen was coming off a career low in FG% and his lowest rebounding season since his rookie year.  He was clearly in decline, and that decline became a free-fall, as he averaged 14.5 / 6 / 6 in his year with Hakeem, and declined steadily thereafter.

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

If I recall correctly that Houston team also had some big chemistry issues. 

[fairweatherfan]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

Not to nitpick, but Shaq's Magic did beat Jordan + Pippen in the '95 playoffs.  Jordan came out of his retirement halfway through the season, and the Magic got swept in the finals, but Shaq's team did get them once.

[Roy Hobbs]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

Not to nitpick, but Shaq's Magic did beat Jordan + Pippen in the '95 playoffs.  Jordan came out of his retirement halfway through the season, and the Magic got swept in the finals, but Shaq's team did get them once.

Yeah, I give Jordan a pass for his post-retirement #45 season.  But yes, Shaq did beat him in the playoffs, and Hakeem crushed Shaq in the Finals.  If that counts as Shaq beating Jordan, then it also counts as Hakeem winning a title in the Jordan era.

[Michael Anthony]

Couple of names to add to the Current Era discusion:

Amare Stoudemire
Andrew Bogut
Brook Lopez
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol

Stoudemire is essentially bizaro Howard - supreme athlete, best offensive player at his position.

Before the injury, I would have taken Bogut over Howard for these playoffs. He brings 75% of the defense and 200% of the offense.

Brook Lopez and Marc Gasol could end up having better careers, especially considering Howard's dependence on athletiscism.

Pau Gasol is much better than Howard right now.

[indeedproceed]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

[Roy Hobbs]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Yeah, I think a case can be made for either player, which is why I copped out and named Shaq "1a".  If I was drafting one or the other to build around, I'd *probably* take Hakeem, but I can't say that with 100% certainty.

However, both are worlds better than Howard.

[BballTim]

Yeah but Shaq got 4 rings in what, 5 or 6 years?

With Kobe and D. Wade as teammates.  Granted, those guys aren't quite as good as Sam Cassell and Mario Elie, but they're close.

Couldn't beat Jordan though. Say what you will about his teammates, he had Drexler in 94-95, Barkley and pippen both later, pippen when he was still pretty good, and Sam Cassell was an All-star (10 years later)

Who could beat the Jordan / Pippen combo, though?  Shaq certainly didn't, either.

He won a title with 32 year old Drexler.  He couldn't win a title with a 34 year old Barkley or a 33 year old Pippen.  I don't think there's a lot of shame in that. 

Pippen was a year removed from averaging 19pts, and nearly 6 boards and 6 assists. It wasn't like he was done, he was still playing elite ball.

Pippen was coming off a career low in FG% and his lowest rebounding season since his rookie year.  He was clearly in decline, and that decline became a free-fall, as he averaged 14.5 / 6 / 6 in his year with Hakeem, and declined steadily thereafter.

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

  Just an aside, but I think that "decline" happened just after Pitino tried to trade Antoine and a couple of first rounders for Pippin.

  Yikes!

[Mr October]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Olajuwon is my number one as well. The guy dismantled Robinson and Ewing with regularity when they were all in their primes. The guy could do everything, including shoot the ball well.

Shaq had Kobe or Wade to take over when things got too tough (ie vs Duncan or Sabonis). Olajuwon never had a top 5 teammate.

But they are really close.

And yeah Howard doesn't stand up to any of the 80s/90s greats. He has no post game. Someday maybe his offense will catch up with his defense.

[BballTim]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Olajuwon is my number one as well. The guy dismantled Robinson and Ewing with regularity when they were all in their primes. The guy could do everything, including shoot the ball well.

Shaq had Kobe or Wade to take over when things got too tough (ie vs Duncan or Sabonis). Olajuwon never had a top 5 teammate.

But they are really close.

And yeah Howard doesn't stand up to any of the 80s/90s greats. He has no post game. Someday maybe his offense will catch up with his defense.

 Hakeem was a much better defender than Shaq. That would be the difference for me.

[Brendan]

Duncan is a good point. I think Duncan was a PF until Robinson retired, transitioned and has been a C since. This hurts the argument for Duncan as best center or best PF - since his career is split.

Shaq was a pup when he played Hakeem head to head whereas Hakeem was at the height of his powers. LAL Shaq was a beast and submitted numerous top 25 PER seasons.

Seasons of top 25 PER all time
Jordan: 7
Shaq: 5
Wilt: 3
Lebron, Robinson, Kareem: 2
Wade, McGrady, Chris Paul, Garnett: 1

Hakeem's best is 64th all time.

I think you have to factor in intangibles, defense, and championships. But Shaq brings a lot of those. Negative points for not winning another title or two in LAL and being a part of the blow up, but no C's fan can take Kobe's side. Shaq was also mobile enough then to be an anchor on defense. And those LAL teams had Kobe, but the rest of the roster wasn't that great.

Just going by that first team Glen Rice was the third best player with a 16 per and 31 MPG. Everyone else was below average (15) PER. No one else averaged more than 30 MPG (or more than 25.5 MPG).

[guava_wrench]

Way too early to ask this.

[guava_wrench]

I'm very surprised by this argument, honestly.  Pippen hit age 33, and his stats fell sharply.  He's not the first wing player to experience such a decline.  He was far, far from an elite player at that point.

Surprised by the argument? You're surprised that I cherry picked a season where he only played I think 44 games (its been 20 mins since I looked it up) and held it up as an accomplishment? This is Celticsblog, Roy. You're only as rational as your last post.

RE: O'Neal V Hakeem, I still say O'Neal...but there are a lot of similarities. The two years Hakeem took the title, he faced some tough WC competition, and a tough but not what I would call elite NYK team in the finals, then a young but talented Magic team.

O'Neal faced challenging series against the Kings, Spurs, Blazers in each of his seasons (except the one where they swept their way to the finals), but then was met with the Nets, Pacers, and 76ers.

I think O'Neal was the more dominant player. Hakeem (notice me tacitly avoiding trying to spell Olajuwon) had more tools at his disposal, but Shaq was just too big, too athletic, too strong, and too talented.

Shaq was also more dominant because Jordan was no longer an obstacle.

[jr_3421]

Read though everything and here is my take:

Dwight is way too high on the original list. He simply is more athletic than all other centers today.

Maybe I missed it, but are people really leaving out Wilt Chamberlain? The guy was the most dominant player of any era (Shaq being a close second).

On the same note, I consider Russell to be a center so I would have to put him on the list as well. People saying he is too small is not a valid point. He had elite athleticism and length to keep up with Wilt which in my opinion makes him a legit center.

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

[Roy Hobbs]

Read though everything and here is my take:

Dwight is way too high on the original list. He simply is more athletic than all other centers today.

Maybe I missed it, but are people really leaving out Wilt Chamberlain? The guy was the most dominant player of any era (Shaq being a close second).

On the same note, I consider Russell to be a center so I would have to put him on the list as well. People saying he is too small is not a valid point. He had elite athleticism and length to keep up with Wilt which in my opinion makes him a legit center.

Hakeem was the most well-rounded center of all time. Shaq was great but I would give the nod to Hakeem. He had to deal with Jordan and when Jordan left, he won back to back titles.

Neither Wilt not Russell played in the last 30 years.