Laker fans rooting for Celtics, want a rematch...

[LakerPete]

I'd say that the difference between Rondo in 08 and Rondo now is easily as significant as any of those upgrades. Also, Baby didn't play much in 08 and Sheed's got more left in the tank than PJ did.

I disagree. I don't think you can have a more drastic swing than going from Walton/Radmanovic "guarding" Pierce to having Artest do so. Those are two players who haven't been consistent parts of NBA rotations since then, and neither is Vujacic. Both are terrible, terrible defenders.

Rondo's certainly gotten better, but I don't think his individual improvement approaches the discrepancy between just Walton/Radmanovic to Artest upgrade. Once you throw the increased size into the mix in Bynum, it's an even wider gap, IMHO.

Leon Powe absolutely killed us in that series, and he's gone now. Davis concerns me much less than he did, and I don't think he can approach Powe's performance. Wallace is definitely better than PJ Brown was at that point though, I can't argue with you there.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Actually, we like Bynum being there... it makes us match up better, since Perk wasn't a good matchup against Gasol and KG is a better Gasol defender and Perk can handle himself against Bynum, particularly when both are playing with one knee.

[GreenFaith1819]

Why do I get the feeling that this thread will be here for the next 3-4 weeks .

Just gotta take care of ORL, first. And LA must take care of PHX.

[LakerPete]

Actually, we like Bynum being there... it makes us match up better, since Perk wasn't a good matchup against Gasol and KG is a better Gasol defender and Perk can handle himself against Bynum, particularly when both are playing with one knee.

Bynum's just another arrow in the quiver though. He was effective in the game in Boston this year, as his length got the Lakers some points that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Perkins does a great job of defending Bynum (and most bigs) on the block, but he's rarely used in that capacity these days. Kobe is our primary post option (in the high post), with Gasol as a close second. (down low) Bynum generally operates on the weak side, which negates Perkins' elite man defense to an extent.

But with all of that being said, Odom/Gasol is still the closing pair. Bynum is able to provide a skill set (or more accurately, size) that adds another dimension to the Lakers. Ronny Turiaf, who got those minutes in '08, did not do that. 

[BballTim]

I'd say that the difference between Rondo in 08 and Rondo now is easily as significant as any of those upgrades. Also, Baby didn't play much in 08 and Sheed's got more left in the tank than PJ did.

I disagree. I don't think you can have a more drastic swing than going from Walton/Radmanovic "guarding" Pierce to having Artest do so. Those are two players who haven't been consistent parts of NBA rotations since then, and neither is Vujacic. Both are terrible, terrible defenders.

Rondo's certainly gotten better, but I don't think his individual improvement approaches the discrepancy between just Walton/Radmanovic to Artest upgrade. Once you throw the increased size into the mix in Bynum, it's an even wider gap, IMHO.

Leon Powe absolutely killed us in that series, and he's gone now. Davis concerns me much less than he did, and I don't think he can approach Powe's performance. Wallace is definitely better than PJ Brown was at that point though, I can't argue with you there.

  Leon Powe had one good game in 08. 21 points in game 2 and he probably averaged 3 a game aside from that. It's pretty likely that Baby  will have more of an overall contribution than Leon did.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'd say that the difference between Rondo in 08 and Rondo now is easily as significant as any of those upgrades. Also, Baby didn't play much in 08 and Sheed's got more left in the tank than PJ did.

I disagree. I don't think you can have a more drastic swing than going from Walton/Radmanovic "guarding" Pierce to having Artest do so. Those are two players who haven't been consistent parts of NBA rotations since then, and neither is Vujacic. Both are terrible, terrible defenders.

Rondo's certainly gotten better, but I don't think his individual improvement approaches the discrepancy between just Walton/Radmanovic to Artest upgrade. Once you throw the increased size into the mix in Bynum, it's an even wider gap, IMHO.

Leon Powe absolutely killed us in that series, and he's gone now. Davis concerns me much less than he did, and I don't think he can approach Powe's performance. Wallace is definitely better than PJ Brown was at that point though, I can't argue with you there.

  Leon Powe had one good game in 08. 21 points in game 2 and he probably averaged 3 a game aside from that. It's pretty likely that Baby  will have more of an overall contribution than Leon did.

Biggest misconception of the series.

[LakerPete]

I'd say that the difference between Rondo in 08 and Rondo now is easily as significant as any of those upgrades. Also, Baby didn't play much in 08 and Sheed's got more left in the tank than PJ did.

I disagree. I don't think you can have a more drastic swing than going from Walton/Radmanovic "guarding" Pierce to having Artest do so. Those are two players who haven't been consistent parts of NBA rotations since then, and neither is Vujacic. Both are terrible, terrible defenders.

Rondo's certainly gotten better, but I don't think his individual improvement approaches the discrepancy between just Walton/Radmanovic to Artest upgrade. Once you throw the increased size into the mix in Bynum, it's an even wider gap, IMHO.

Leon Powe absolutely killed us in that series, and he's gone now. Davis concerns me much less than he did, and I don't think he can approach Powe's performance. Wallace is definitely better than PJ Brown was at that point though, I can't argue with you there.

  Leon Powe had one good game in 08. 21 points in game 2 and he probably averaged 3 a game aside from that. It's pretty likely that Baby  will have more of an overall contribution than Leon did.

Biggest misconception of the series.

I stand corrected.

[droopdog7]

Looks like this thread has been picked up on this board (forgive me if it is a repeat).  For those of you on that board lurking, here is some analysis for you.

http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=110869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Forget about the numbers, the Celts have the best defense in the NBA.  This team is as good if not better than the 08 team because of the emergence of Rondo and the improved health of KG.  Allen looks like he hasn't lost anything at all and PP is getting healthier as well.  The bench is as good as it was in 08.  Rasheed is as good or bettter than PJ, Baby is about equal to Powe, and TA is playing out of his mind.  He is a better man defender and creator that Posey.

I acknowledge that the lakers are better as well.  Some say much bettter.  But I still like the match ups.  The growing sentiment is that Gasol is no longer soft.  Um, maybe against the Carlos Boozer of the world he isn't.  But how'd he do against KG and Perk this year?  15 and 9.  Okay, but not great by any stretch. Basically, gasol is good at taking advantage of smaller players but once against players his size, that is all gone.

And kobe has struggled consistently against this team since this team was assembled.  Very low shooting percentage and he is hardly ever doubled.  It actually amazes me how good a job Ray does on kobe.  But he does do a great job.

In previous meetings, kobe basically acts as the roaming defender in part because they know fish would get torched by Rondo.  They think it will work as it has in previous years this year.  It won't.  Rondo is better and will make the lakers pay for this strategy.

As far as tough match ups, I agree that artest and bynum can be effecttive.  Bynums length gives the celts problems and we shouldn't expect PP to go off consistently.  But Ray will torch fish to be sure.

The benches may be the key.  odom is certainly a tough match on the offensive end but we have shown that he can be exposed on defense.  Hell, Leon was positng him at will.  Baby and Sheed can do the same.  Basically, give odom something to think about on D and his O becomes less affective. 

Kobe is very good, but clearly on the decline.  If we can limit LBJ, we can do the same to kobe.  He WILL NOT take ovet this series.

In the end, heart and defense would win out.  And you know where that resides.

[ducksawce]

The best way I can sum up the difference between the Celtics and the Lakers in 2008 vs. today is this:

Boston has turned into more of a "hybrid" semi-transition team on offense.  LA has turned into more of a "grind-it-out" halfcourt team on offense. 

Boston has lost some of its interior defensive prowess (i.e. less KG blocks), while gaining disruptive defensive capabilities in the backcourt (i.e Rondo and TA).  LA has lost some of its backcourt defensive prowess (i.e slower Kobe and Fisher), while gaining disruptive defensive capablities in the frontcourt (i.e. Gasol and Bynum blocking).

Of course, this is all "relative"...and it is not so much that these two teams have "lost" anything.  It's more that they've adopted some of the most characteristic traits of each other in formulating their on-court philosophy.

THIS is why a potential rematch between the Celtics and Lakers would be SO sweet.  It would epic, not only because it would settle the debate over which team "owns" this 3-5 year period in NBA history....it would also feature two teams that have mirrored each other, followed each other, and modeled themselves after each other without even realizing it. 

It's no accident that the Lakers have become more of a "big-man" team...and neither is it coincidental that the Celtics have become more of a "point-guard"-led team.  It reflects the changing dynamics present in each basketball conference.  The West has gradually grown more physical, less "run and gun".  The East has become MORE of a high-scoring conference with teams such as the Cavs, Magic and Hawks...all offensive titans in themselves.

Boston and LA used to represent the defensive and the offensive ideal respectively.  Now, they are mirror opposites that do EVERYTHING well. 

For this reason, I think that a rematch between the Celtics and Lakers would resemble that of  championship series between the two teams during the 80's.  Not only are the matchups compelling, but the narrative is too.  It is the narrative of the "defending champion", expected to easily reclaim their title and breeze right through the early rounds of the playoffs, only to meet the "previous defending champion", a broken and discouraged team that had been counted out by pundits and experts, all of whom were doubtful in the team being able to get beyond each playoff round opponent.  Time and time again, they are proven wrong, and the team gains back the confidence it once had.

In essence, we're likely to see two VERY confident teams battle eachother in the finals.  As a Celtics fan, in enduring what has quite possibly been the most difficult and dissapointing regular season (at least with our previously-held expectations) in recent memory, I think this Celtics team has turned around against ALL odds and done the impossible.  They've got balls of steel and catastrophically high amounts of resolve.  The've already hastened the vacation plans of Dwyane Wade and Lebron James.  The same will be done for Dwight Howard and Vince Carter.  Kobe is likely next. 

If the Celtics were able to handle THOSE superstars, then they surely would not back down to Kobe and crew. They    will    not    lose.

[LakerPete]

The best way I can sum up the difference between the Celtics and the Lakers in 2008 vs. today is this:

Boston has turned into more of a "hybrid" semi-transition team on offense.  LA has turned into more of a "grind-it-out" halfcourt team on offense. 

Boston has lost some of its interior defensive prowess (i.e. less KG blocks), while gaining disruptive defensive capabilities in the backcourt (i.e Rondo and TA).  LA has lost some of its backcourt defensive prowess (i.e slower Kobe and Fisher), while gaining disruptive defensive capablities in the frontcourt (i.e. Gasol and Bynum blocking).

Of course, this is all "relative"...and it is not so much that these two teams have "lost" anything.  It's more that they've adopted some of the most characteristic traits of each other in formulating their on-court philosophy.

THIS is why a potential rematch between the Celtics and Lakers would be SO sweet.  It would epic, not only because it would settle the debate over which team "owns" this 3-5 year period in NBA history....it would also feature two teams that have mirrored each other, followed each other, and modeled themselves after each other without even realizing it. 

It's no accident that the Lakers have become more of a "big-man" team...and neither is it coincidental that the Celtics have become more of a "point-guard"-led team.  It reflects the changing dynamics present in each basketball conference.  The West has gradually grown more physical, less "run and gun".  The East has become MORE of a high-scoring conference with teams such as the Cavs, Magic and Hawks...all offensive titans in themselves.

Boston and LA used to represent the defensive and the offensive ideal respectively.  Now, they are mirror opposites that do EVERYTHING well. 

For this reason, I think that a rematch between the Celtics and Lakers would resemble that of  championship series between the two teams during the 80's.  Not only are the matchups compelling, but the narrative is too.  It is the narrative of the "defending champion", expected to easily reclaim their title and breeze right through the early rounds of the playoffs, only to meet the "previous defending champion", a broken and discouraged team that had been counted out by pundits and experts, all of whom were doubtful in the team being able to get beyond each playoff round opponent.  Time and time again, they are proven wrong, and the team gains back the confidence it once had.

In essence, we're likely to see two VERY confident teams battle eachother in the finals.  As a Celtics fan, in enduring what has quite possibly been the most difficult and dissapointing regular season (at least with our previously-held expectations) in recent memory, I think this Celtics team has turned around against ALL odds and done the impossible.  They've got balls of steel and catastrophically high amounts of resolve.  The've already hastened the vacation plans of Dwyane Wade and Lebron James.  The same will be done for Dwight Howard and Vince Carter.  Kobe is likely next. 

If the Celtics were able to handle THOSE superstars, then they surely would not back down to Kobe and crew. They    will    not    lose.

Great post. You did an excellent job of summarizing why this would be a great series both on the court, and in terms of the narrative. While I cannot stomach the idea of giving you points that honor Tommy Heinsohn, the sentiment is still there. 

Of course we can argue in favor of our respective teams one way or another, but I think that Laker fans would be foolish to put too much stock in the pedestrian season that the Celtics had as a harbinger of what we'd face in the Finals, and I think that Celtic fans would be foolish to do the same with the '08 Finals.

By the way, the last 2 weeks of rooting for the Celtics have been some of the most bizarre sports moments of my life. I was at a bar with some friends for Game 6, and Pierce hit a big three in the 4th quarter that felt like a momentum swing. As it went in, me and my friend said, "Yes!" and then instinctively turn to give each other a high-five.

We both realized what had happened, pre-empted the high-five with looks of disgust...mostly at ourselves...and proceeded to contemplatively drink heavily. GD Celtics.

[Mr October]

Actually, we like Bynum being there... it makes us match up better, since Perk wasn't a good matchup against Gasol and KG is a better Gasol defender and Perk can handle himself against Bynum, particularly when both are playing with one knee.

Bynum's just another arrow in the quiver though. He was effective in the game in Boston this year, as his length got the Lakers some points that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Perkins does a great job of defending Bynum (and most bigs) on the block, but he's rarely used in that capacity these days. Kobe is our primary post option (in the high post), with Gasol as a close second. (down low) Bynum generally operates on the weak side, which negates Perkins' elite man defense to an extent.

But with all of that being said, Odom/Gasol is still the closing pair. Bynum is able to provide a skill set (or more accurately, size) that adds another dimension to the Lakers. Ronny Turiaf, who got those minutes in '08, did not do that. 

LakerPete, lots of good points. Artest replacing Radmanovic/Walton is huge, as is the point that Bynum is more of a roaming garbage man on offense. There is no question that if these 2 teams meet that Boston will have its hands full.

On the other hand. LA has had it easy on the West coast. They can easily over power those opponents in a skills/finesse game. What will they do, when a unrelentingly scrappy team slaps them in the mouth? How will Odom, Gasol and Bynum in particular respond?

Rondo is way better this year then he was in 2008. Rasheed is an upgrade over PJ Brown. Tony Allen is playing better defense this year than Posey did in 2008. Also Perkins could only play about 20 minutes a game, and in only 5 out of the 6 games, due to foul trouble and a bad shoulder. He's got more respect from the officials now. Davis is a better player now.

Also Kobe is less of a player this year - dropping from best in the game to maybe 3rd or 4th.

Yet, KG is less mobile.

Bottom line is that a finals matchup between these 2 teams will be very unpredictable and very evenly matched.

[Kenhov]

What I enjoy about this blog (and I peeked at that Lakers forum as well as ClubLaker and the Orlando blog as well), is that people are fine with being pensive and pessimistic on our own team.

I think the biggest thing I have noticed about the Lakers is that they are driven by Kobe's confidence. If Kobe has to start to take over a game one of two things has to be happening.

the first is that they have to be in a game where his resolve and ego are being tested.

the second is when he loses confidence in the rest of the team.

I think Boston is good enough to engage the second scenario and this will inevitably hurt the Lakers. When he gets into that tunnel vision mode, it becomes a one on one vs the opposing team, and then while he may be on fire, his team mates start to fall out of sync.

On more salient points of matchup, Lakers fans are hoping that Ron Artest will shut down Pierce because they figure Piece is the reason they lost in 2008. Maybe so, but this is a different team and in effect they built a solution for a problem which has changed.

It is accurate that KG is still just about 70% if that much. Really its more will and resolve rather than hops that has him here. However it is practically will and resolve which will decide a close series.

The players who will make a huge difference will be Baby, Sheed, Rondo, and the two Allens.  Sheed because he can pretty much negate Odoms game by making have to work on the block on defence, something Odom hasnt had to do all playoffs. Baby because his energy is unmatched by any Laker player and he possesses a mid range jumper which will keep them honest, and the two Allens in their own ways.

So Artest can restrict Paul Pierce to whatever he likes, it isnt going to disrupt the Boston offence. On the contrary. If Pau Gasol does not have a stellar game under watch from KG, and Boston keeps Kobe shooting, then what other options do Lakers have ? Odom will be burnt out being posted up time and time again by one of Baby or Sheed, and Shannon Brown and the rest of the cast will be treated with the same defence that everyone gets.

WHich is another crucial part of Bostons game. The ability to keep the intensity up which is why our rotation is smaller than most teams.

Boston is now truly a team, from one through to eight. They have to be because each of the players need each other to succeed. Lakers otoh still have built a team to enable Kobe.

Anyway there is no certainty we will get past Orlando because they are a very talented team. Here'es to a focussed group of team players.

[twinbree]

Meh I don't care about rematches, revenge etc. I only care about my own entertainment and for that I'd prefer to play Phoenix if we make the finals. As great as it feels in the end to beat teams with players I hate, I don't enjoy the games as much while the series is actually going on.

We've already played the Heat who start 2 of the players I hate the most in the league but that was partly offset by Wade being one of my faves. Then the Cavs - I can't stand almost everyone on that team. Now the Magic who I don't really hate but don't find very interesting and their coach grates on my nerves. The Lakers team is so unlikeable everyone from the coach down to the bench scrubs. OK I give Mbenga a pass but that's it. With the exception of a mild disdain for Amar'e I don't hate anyone on the Suns and I like their style. Too bad I probably won't get my wish.

[LakerPete]

Actually, we like Bynum being there... it makes us match up better, since Perk wasn't a good matchup against Gasol and KG is a better Gasol defender and Perk can handle himself against Bynum, particularly when both are playing with one knee.

Bynum's just another arrow in the quiver though. He was effective in the game in Boston this year, as his length got the Lakers some points that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Perkins does a great job of defending Bynum (and most bigs) on the block, but he's rarely used in that capacity these days. Kobe is our primary post option (in the high post), with Gasol as a close second. (down low) Bynum generally operates on the weak side, which negates Perkins' elite man defense to an extent.

But with all of that being said, Odom/Gasol is still the closing pair. Bynum is able to provide a skill set (or more accurately, size) that adds another dimension to the Lakers. Ronny Turiaf, who got those minutes in '08, did not do that. 

LakerPete, lots of good points. Artest replacing Radmanovic/Walton is huge, as is the point that Bynum is more of a roaming garbage man on offense. There is no question that if these 2 teams meet that Boston will have its hands full.

On the other hand. LA has had it easy on the West coast. They can easily over power those opponents in a skills/finesse game. What will they do, when a unrelentingly scrappy team slaps them in the mouth? How will Odom, Gasol and Bynum in particular respond?

Rondo is way better this year then he was in 2008. Rasheed is an upgrade over PJ Brown. Tony Allen is playing better defense this year than Posey did in 2008. Also Perkins could only play about 20 minutes a game, and in only 5 out of the 6 games, due to foul trouble and a bad shoulder. He's got more respect from the officials now. Davis is a better player now.

Also Kobe is less of a player this year - dropping from best in the game to maybe 3rd or 4th.

Yet, KG is less mobile.

Bottom line is that a finals matchup between these 2 teams will be very unpredictable and very evenly matched.

Excellent observations as well, Mr October.

How will the Lakers react when someone hits them in the mouth? I don't know. That is the book on us, and you're certainly not going to win by playing a finesse game ala Utah & Phoenix. We didn't react well in '08, that's for sure.

I will say this though. We now have two more players that will hit back (Artest & Bynum), when it was really just Kobe & Fisher before. It's never a good thing when your toughness comes from your backcourt and your backcourt alone.

It's been a strange year in Lakerland. We've morphed from a fluid offensive squad to an inconsistent one that likes to get under people's skin and wrestle with them. I believe that this is a product of Artest. Artest/Ariza was the only change on the Laker roster this summer, and he's completely changed the defensive culture on the team. Would it translate against Boston? I don't know. But it's been a tangible difference on the court thus far.

As an absolutely die hard Laker fan...I now trust our defense more than our offense. That's very strange to say.

Regarding Kobe, I think that it's been a matter of health. He's currently on the longest string of consecutive 30+ point playoff games in his career (and he's played a lot of playoff games), is doing so within the context of an offense that is letting others thrive, and is moving as well as he has since the beginning of the season. I understand that these performances are against the Jazz & the Suns, but I'm moreso gauging how he looks regardless of the competition. I've been watching him play for 14 years now, and he looks like himself again. That wasn't the case for most of the season. The slower schedule during the playoffs is a Godsend.

Question for you guys. Much has been made of Tony Allen's ability to guard Kobe, which I think he can do. But if he's playing...who's sitting?

[Mr October]

Question for you guys. Much has been made of Tony Allen's ability to guard Kobe, which I think he can do. But if he's playing...who's sitting?

Tony is the back up for the 1-3 positions. And the guy knows his role and is all energy on both ends for 20 minutes per game.