Doc is to Blame!

[Tai]

Doc has tried everything with this team. they just dont have any chemistry and they just dont really care.

He's never tried to change the starting lineup. Ray should be the 6th man and Tony should start.

It all makes sense now. It's cause Ray's starting and TA's not.... 

With all due respect, I think that'd get Doc tossed quicker. Do you really think  that will pan out in the playoffs when people already say players will play off Rondo in the playoffs?

Good coaches like Popovich and Karl do it with Ginobili and JR Smith. Being a great 6th man can be more important than starting. Just ask Hondo and McHale. But let's just keep the starting lineup the way it is. It's been working out so well the last few months.

Aaron Affalo and Keith Bogans are at least serviceable from down town.

TA hasn't made a 3 all year, and he's only attempted 5.

Btw, Bogans doesn't even start anymore, despite the fact Tony Parker's still coming off the bench while making his comeback.

[screwedupmaniac]

We can point fingers all day long (sheed's fault, Doc's fault, Danny's fault, Pierce's iso's fault), but at the end of the day, we're just flat out old, and we're a step behind every other team we play. There's nothing anyone can do about that, and we're having to learn to cope with it. It's like watching a loved one die...now I know what my dad went through when the original Big 3 started breaking down in old age.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I ia the management, the coach.....and the players...but the coaching is terrible, he either has no input on this team, or no ideas...watching that game, you always see the center on D totally lost ( ours), and totally beat...how could perk get lost like that this far in his career, it is a common lapse on him, and always has been, he must have the mentality of a child......the defense was totally lost and disorganized constantly..the offense was chaotic..i still think PP has issues with his game and his so-called leadership.....he now doesn't really know when to pass and or when to go for it......his passing is always a "I dribbled into a double-team, so now i will dish it off"..that is not passing, and not team ball, and not what a team needs from its captain. Still tons of shots with NO one underneath...that is BBall 101...! Sheed hardly ever crosses the 3 point line, and KG has a lot of trouble performing his D consistantly..and lately, what does he have if that outside shot isn't working..? Doc....needs to wrok the lineup to meet the opposing teams...it has always been my view, that there isn't anything called STARTERS, it is all about matchups and who is on and motivated.....an experienced coach with team research can tell how to exploit the other teams weakness's....ever see doc do that..?  The only coach and motivation this team ever had was kg and the big 3...but that only works when they are all on the same page.....PP has left that page.....

 This is exactly where a coach should be able to unite a good team, he has everything he needs here...i don't think he has the mental capacity, the strategy, or the guts to try and do what needs to be done, he is a slappy-happy go on guy......"okay we lost again by a million, haha, no big deal, when do we play again..I'll be there, blahblahblah..." that is all he ever says..and the results say the same thing. Ever see him make some adjustments that work, halftime strategy shifts to cover the hot hands, new combinations of players that compliment each other....we have plenty of different players/styles here, slashers, rebounders, speed, height........

[Andy Jick]

Doc is partly to blame.  But this is a veteran team, and they are LARGELY to be blamed...  This team is talented enough to make a run, maybe this one last time.  But they didn't give the effort.  You can't blame a coach entirely for that...

[nickagneta]

I ia the management, the coach.....and the players...but the coaching is terrible, he either has no input on this team, or no ideas...watching that game, you always see the center on D totally lost ( ours), and totally beat...how could perk get lost like that this far in his career, it is a common lapse on him, and always has been, he must have the mentality of a child......the defense was totally lost and disorganized constantly..the offense was chaotic..i still think PP has issues with his game and his so-called leadership.....he now doesn't really know when to pass and or when to go for it......his passing is always a "I dribbled into a double-team, so now i will dish it off"..that is not passing, and not team ball, and not what a team needs from its captain. Still tons of shots with NO one underneath...that is BBall 101...! Sheed hardly ever crosses the 3 point line, and KG has a lot of trouble performing his D consistantly..and lately, what does he have if that outside shot isn't working..? Doc....needs to wrok the lineup to meet the opposing teams...it has always been my view, that there isn't anything called STARTERS, it is all about matchups and who is on and motivated.....an experienced coach with team research can tell how to exploit the other teams weakness's....ever see doc do that..?  The only coach and motivation this team ever had was kg and the big 3...but that only works when they are all on the same page.....PP has left that page.....

 This is exactly where a coach should be able to unite a good team, he has everything he needs here...i don't think he has the mental capacity, the strategy, or the guts to try and do what needs to be done, he is a slappy-happy go on guy......"okay we lost again by a million, haha, no big deal, when do we play again..I'll be there, blahblahblah..." that is all he ever says..and the results say the same thing. Ever see him make some adjustments that work, halftime strategy shifts to cover the hot hands, new combinations of players that compliment each other....we have plenty of different players/styles here, slashers, rebounders, speed, height........

I can't disagree more with your entire coaching philosophy, especially at the pro level. The stuff you are describing might work at the AAU level or high school level, but you NEVER see that stuff at the higher level of coaching.

Players, especially in a long season like Division I ball or the NBA need to have consistency and known roles. They have to have a system to run and attempt to perfect it. it is always easier to be a success running your stuff and making the opposition adjust to you than it is to be constantly adjusting to someone else. 

You idea of no starters and a flexibility of who starts or who comes out after halftime according to what the other team is doing would be a complete and utter disaster at any level above high school. Premier athletes perform better under a consistent, positive atmosphere where they have specific roles and goals to achieve. Jerking players in and out of roles and having large swings in minutes played game to game makes proper mental preparation for any athlete next to impossible for long term success.

There's lots to criticize Doc on. His system is not one of them. His system is a proven winner.

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I ia the management, the coach.....and the players...but the coaching is terrible, he either has no input on this team, or no ideas...watching that game, you always see the center on D totally lost ( ours), and totally beat...how could perk get lost like that this far in his career, it is a common lapse on him, and always has been, he must have the mentality of a child......the defense was totally lost and disorganized constantly..the offense was chaotic..i still think PP has issues with his game and his so-called leadership.....he now doesn't really know when to pass and or when to go for it......his passing is always a "I dribbled into a double-team, so now i will dish it off"..that is not passing, and not team ball, and not what a team needs from its captain. Still tons of shots with NO one underneath...that is BBall 101...! Sheed hardly ever crosses the 3 point line, and KG has a lot of trouble performing his D consistantly..and lately, what does he have if that outside shot isn't working..? Doc....needs to wrok the lineup to meet the opposing teams...it has always been my view, that there isn't anything called STARTERS, it is all about matchups and who is on and motivated.....an experienced coach with team research can tell how to exploit the other teams weakness's....ever see doc do that..?  The only coach and motivation this team ever had was kg and the big 3...but that only works when they are all on the same page.....PP has left that page.....

 This is exactly where a coach should be able to unite a good team, he has everything he needs here...i don't think he has the mental capacity, the strategy, or the guts to try and do what needs to be done, he is a slappy-happy go on guy......"okay we lost again by a million, haha, no big deal, when do we play again..I'll be there, blahblahblah..." that is all he ever says..and the results say the same thing. Ever see him make some adjustments that work, halftime strategy shifts to cover the hot hands, new combinations of players that compliment each other....we have plenty of different players/styles here, slashers, rebounders, speed, height........

I can't disagree more with your entire coaching philosophy, especially at the pro level. The stuff you are describing might work at the AAU level or high school level, but you NEVER see that stuff at the higher level of coaching.

Players, especially in a long season like Division I ball or the NBA need to have consistency and known roles. They have to have a system to run and attempt to perfect it. it is always easier to be a success running your stuff and making the opposition adjust to you than it is to be constantly adjusting to someone else. 

You idea of no starters and a flexibility of who starts or who comes out after halftime according to what the other team is doing would be a complete and utter disaster at any level above high school. Premier athletes perform better under a consistent, positive atmosphere where they have specific roles and goals to achieve. Jerking players in and out of roles and having large swings in minutes played game to game makes proper mental preparation for any athlete next to impossible for long term success.

There's lots to criticize Doc on. His system is not one of them. His system is a proven winner.

I don't disagree that there's a limit to how much the current Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.cat NBA veteran's fragile ego can handle (like the way I reframed that?), but it's hard to argue with the type of success that the tougher coaches like Rick Carlyle and Jerry Sloan have had.  I think good coach examples of the 3-year burnout track are the ones that are demanding, but don't balance it with good ego management.  I'd include Larry Brown in that, which may (along with him being a bit of a nut job, too) explain his history of team-hopping, and would also include Avery Johnson, who had a great run but then crashed almost as quickly as he took off, and Jim O'Brien, who is a great X's/O's coach but doesn't seem to be great with managing human beings.

Coaching is sort of like parenting teenagers, perhaps, where latitude is given, but with some accountability expected when things START going obviously wrong, because, you know, teenagers aren't stepping back from the edge on their own.  Doc appears to have failed to acknowledge the obvious and follow with the expected consequence (meddling by the coach w/minutes, rotations, etc.), which means, to me, he didn't do his job.  Instead of stepping in, he let this team have all the rope they needed to do damage, and if he did actually intervene, it didn't help and the team is nearly DOA.

And, FWIW, his system isn't a proven winner.  Teams loaded with incredible all-NBA talented players that respect EACH OTHER that are incredibly focused on winning is a pretty proven winner, IMHO.

[dark_lord]

When they win, they win as a team, players and coaching staff ... it's no different when they lose, they are ALL to blame, no one coach or player.

exactly!

[nickagneta]

I ia the management, the coach.....and the players...but the coaching is terrible, he either has no input on this team, or no ideas...watching that game, you always see the center on D totally lost ( ours), and totally beat...how could perk get lost like that this far in his career, it is a common lapse on him, and always has been, he must have the mentality of a child......the defense was totally lost and disorganized constantly..the offense was chaotic..i still think PP has issues with his game and his so-called leadership.....he now doesn't really know when to pass and or when to go for it......his passing is always a "I dribbled into a double-team, so now i will dish it off"..that is not passing, and not team ball, and not what a team needs from its captain. Still tons of shots with NO one underneath...that is BBall 101...! Sheed hardly ever crosses the 3 point line, and KG has a lot of trouble performing his D consistantly..and lately, what does he have if that outside shot isn't working..? Doc....needs to wrok the lineup to meet the opposing teams...it has always been my view, that there isn't anything called STARTERS, it is all about matchups and who is on and motivated.....an experienced coach with team research can tell how to exploit the other teams weakness's....ever see doc do that..?  The only coach and motivation this team ever had was kg and the big 3...but that only works when they are all on the same page.....PP has left that page.....

 This is exactly where a coach should be able to unite a good team, he has everything he needs here...i don't think he has the mental capacity, the strategy, or the guts to try and do what needs to be done, he is a slappy-happy go on guy......"okay we lost again by a million, haha, no big deal, when do we play again..I'll be there, blahblahblah..." that is all he ever says..and the results say the same thing. Ever see him make some adjustments that work, halftime strategy shifts to cover the hot hands, new combinations of players that compliment each other....we have plenty of different players/styles here, slashers, rebounders, speed, height........

I can't disagree more with your entire coaching philosophy, especially at the pro level. The stuff you are describing might work at the AAU level or high school level, but you NEVER see that stuff at the higher level of coaching.

Players, especially in a long season like Division I ball or the NBA need to have consistency and known roles. They have to have a system to run and attempt to perfect it. it is always easier to be a success running your stuff and making the opposition adjust to you than it is to be constantly adjusting to someone else. 

You idea of no starters and a flexibility of who starts or who comes out after halftime according to what the other team is doing would be a complete and utter disaster at any level above high school. Premier athletes perform better under a consistent, positive atmosphere where they have specific roles and goals to achieve. Jerking players in and out of roles and having large swings in minutes played game to game makes proper mental preparation for any athlete next to impossible for long term success.

There's lots to criticize Doc on. His system is not one of them. His system is a proven winner.

I don't disagree that there's a limit to how much the current ****cat NBA veteran's fragile ego can handle (like the way I reframed that?), but it's hard to argue with the type of success that the tougher coaches like Rick Carlyle and Jerry Sloan have had.  I think good coach examples of the 3-year burnout track are the ones that are demanding, but don't balance it with good ego management.  I'd include Larry Brown in that, which may (along with him being a bit of a nut job, too) explain his history of team-hopping, and would also include Avery Johnson, who had a great run but then crashed almost as quickly as he took off, and Jim O'Brien, who is a great X's/O's coach but doesn't seem to be great with managing human beings.

Coaching is sort of like parenting teenagers, perhaps, where latitude is given, but with some accountability expected when things START going obviously wrong, because, you know, teenagers aren't stepping back from the edge on their own.  Doc appears to have failed to acknowledge the obvious and follow with the expected consequence (meddling by the coach w/minutes, rotations, etc.), which means, to me, he didn't do his job.  Instead of stepping in, he let this team have all the rope they needed to do damage, and if he did actually intervene, it didn't help and the team is nearly DOA.

And, FWIW, his system isn't a proven winner.  Teams loaded with incredible all-NBA talented players that respect EACH OTHER that are incredibly focused on winning is a pretty proven winner, IMHO.

And I would counter that the constant meddling with minutes and rotations could have only made the situation worse than it was. For every hard disciplinarian that hasn't won a championship(Carlysle, Sloan), there is a low key, managing type coach that has success winning championships(Jackson, Doc, Daly, Popovich).

I think both styles can be effective but often the more cerebral, low key, defensive oriented system is the one that is best and most successful long term for proven veterans. That's what this team is.

Doc has his faults and there is definite reasons to be critical of him but being critical for not constantly tinkering with his lineups and being more hard line with his veterans is, IMHO, not one of them. One can make the argument that one of the problems with this team was the constant injuries that forced Doc to be constantly juggling his lineups and caused to much havoc with people not knowing their roles or getting to play long minutes with the people they should have been. Just the thing people criticize Doc for NOT doing is something that led the team to have problems to begin with.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

I ia the management, the coach.....and the players...but the coaching is terrible, he either has no input on this team, or no ideas...watching that game, you always see the center on D totally lost ( ours), and totally beat...how could perk get lost like that this far in his career, it is a common lapse on him, and always has been, he must have the mentality of a child......the defense was totally lost and disorganized constantly..the offense was chaotic..i still think PP has issues with his game and his so-called leadership.....he now doesn't really know when to pass and or when to go for it......his passing is always a "I dribbled into a double-team, so now i will dish it off"..that is not passing, and not team ball, and not what a team needs from its captain. Still tons of shots with NO one underneath...that is BBall 101...! Sheed hardly ever crosses the 3 point line, and KG has a lot of trouble performing his D consistantly..and lately, what does he have if that outside shot isn't working..? Doc....needs to wrok the lineup to meet the opposing teams...it has always been my view, that there isn't anything called STARTERS, it is all about matchups and who is on and motivated.....an experienced coach with team research can tell how to exploit the other teams weakness's....ever see doc do that..?  The only coach and motivation this team ever had was kg and the big 3...but that only works when they are all on the same page.....PP has left that page.....

 This is exactly where a coach should be able to unite a good team, he has everything he needs here...i don't think he has the mental capacity, the strategy, or the guts to try and do what needs to be done, he is a slappy-happy go on guy......"okay we lost again by a million, haha, no big deal, when do we play again..I'll be there, blahblahblah..." that is all he ever says..and the results say the same thing. Ever see him make some adjustments that work, halftime strategy shifts to cover the hot hands, new combinations of players that compliment each other....we have plenty of different players/styles here, slashers, rebounders, speed, height........

I can't disagree more with your entire coaching philosophy, especially at the pro level. The stuff you are describing might work at the AAU level or high school level, but you NEVER see that stuff at the higher level of coaching.

Players, especially in a long season like Division I ball or the NBA need to have consistency and known roles. They have to have a system to run and attempt to perfect it. it is always easier to be a success running your stuff and making the opposition adjust to you than it is to be constantly adjusting to someone else. 

You idea of no starters and a flexibility of who starts or who comes out after halftime according to what the other team is doing would be a complete and utter disaster at any level above high school. Premier athletes perform better under a consistent, positive atmosphere where they have specific roles and goals to achieve. Jerking players in and out of roles and having large swings in minutes played game to game makes proper mental preparation for any athlete next to impossible for long term success.

There's lots to criticize Doc on. His system is not one of them. His system is a proven winner.

His System, is KG PP and RAy, it isn't a system he came up with, it is what he was given, as for the starter thing, not starting some "pro's" challenges them for their roles and could make them rise up again. Fine to disagree with something that may not have EVER been challenged or changed, but that doesn't mean you are right either. Besides, when you say "a complete and utter disaster, well that is exactly what we had against NY, NJ and now Wash, so it just might prove that your system and this one is wrong. It is the only one tried and it failed. The problem IS that these guys do not know their roles anymore, and I'd like our coach to help these guys with their NEW roles as they age.

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And I would counter that the constant meddling with minutes and rotations could have only made the situation worse than it was. For every hard disciplinarian that hasn't won a championship(Carlysle, Sloan), there is a low key, managing type coach that has success winning championships(Jackson, Doc, Daly, Popovich).

I think both styles can be effective but often the more cerebral, low key, defensive oriented system is the one that is best and most successful long term for proven veterans. That's what this team is.

Doc has his faults and there is definite reasons to be critical of him but being critical for not constantly tinkering with his lineups and being more hard line with his veterans is, IMHO, not one of them. One can make the argument that one of the problems with this team was the constant injuries that forced Doc to be constantly juggling his lineups and caused to much havoc with people not knowing their roles or getting to play long minutes with the people they should have been. Just the thing people criticize Doc for NOT doing is something that led the team to have problems to begin with.

"Constant" meddling...definitely not good.  Doc did it when the team really stunk (as did Obie) to try to find someone who was ready, which makes sense, but "constant" meddling with a team like ours wouldn't be good.  Agreed 100% on that.

But what exactly is a coach of a veteran team supposed to do?  I mean, if he shouldn't adjust minutes, lineups, and rotations in response to the veteran players' failure to right their play/chemistry/whatever on their own?  Obviously, saying "we need to play better" after each embarasing loss doesn't work...

So that's Doc's piece of the blame.  Surely, the players have theirs, but if you can't blame the coach for players not getting it done, and you can't blame the players for getting old, and Danny is a great GM and Wyc a committed owner...  I mean, doesn't someone have to stand up and take responsibility?

BTW, you're a bit quicker to plug Doc in next to some all-time great coaches than I am.  It took PJ quite a bit of tinkering to get his 10 rings, also true of Pop and Daly.  I'd wait to see if Doc ever wins another coaching ring before putting him in that company--and that's no disrespect to Doc, but he hasn't earned that much yet.  Actually, compared to PJ and Popovich, he isn't really close, right?  Maybe someday, but that's a long way off.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

You can't just stay with the same things and expect different results.

[nickagneta]

You can't just stay with the same things and expect different results.

You can if you are expecting hurt players to rehabilitate and get healthier, which was the case through most of this year. Hurt players getting healthier and in better shape and playing in their role will definitely cause different results.

Now, once they were all healthy.....then you have a point. but they have only been all healthy for about the last 20 games and for about the first 12-14 of those games, there was progress towards improvement while keeping everything the same. The confounding part has been the last 6-7 games. That, as far as I am concerned is the part of the year that is really, really bothersome for me.

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You can't just stay with the same things and expect different results.

You can if you are expecting hurt players to rehabilitate and get healthier, which was the case through most of this year. Hurt players getting healthier and in better shape and playing in their role will definitely cause different results.

Now, once they were all healthy.....then you have a point. but they have only been all healthy for about the last 20 games and for about the first 12-14 of those games, there was progress towards improvement while keeping everything the same. The confounding part has been the last 6-7 games. That, as far as I am concerned is the part of the year that is really, really bothersome for me.

Interesting.  I remember, and was highly impressed, when the Fire Doc storm was brewing pre-KG days and DA refused, offering the reasoning that since the roster wasn't built to win (yet), then he couldn't hold the coach accountable for not winning.

Wonder what he's thinking these days...seriously.  I wonder what Danny's thinking.  I'd love to toss a few back with him one night, get him bit "at ease" and pry him for info.  Eventually, when he's good and sauced (funny I can't see him holding his liquor well?), I'd get some compromising photos and use them as blackmail to get him to read CB once in a while to keep him in line.

[nickagneta]

And I would counter that the constant meddling with minutes and rotations could have only made the situation worse than it was. For every hard disciplinarian that hasn't won a championship(Carlysle, Sloan), there is a low key, managing type coach that has success winning championships(Jackson, Doc, Daly, Popovich).

I think both styles can be effective but often the more cerebral, low key, defensive oriented system is the one that is best and most successful long term for proven veterans. That's what this team is.

Doc has his faults and there is definite reasons to be critical of him but being critical for not constantly tinkering with his lineups and being more hard line with his veterans is, IMHO, not one of them. One can make the argument that one of the problems with this team was the constant injuries that forced Doc to be constantly juggling his lineups and caused to much havoc with people not knowing their roles or getting to play long minutes with the people they should have been. Just the thing people criticize Doc for NOT doing is something that led the team to have problems to begin with.

"Constant" meddling...definitely not good.  Doc did it when the team really stunk (as did Obie) to try to find someone who was ready, which makes sense, but "constant" meddling with a team like ours wouldn't be good.  Agreed 100% on that.

But what exactly is a coach of a veteran team supposed to do?  I mean, if he shouldn't adjust minutes, lineups, and rotations in response to the veteran players' failure to right their play/chemistry/whatever on their own?  Obviously, saying "we need to play better" after each embarasing loss doesn't work...

So that's Doc's piece of the blame.  Surely, the players have theirs, but if you can't blame the coach for players not getting it done, and you can't blame the players for getting old, and Danny is a great GM and Wyc a committed owner...  I mean, doesn't someone have to stand up and take responsibility?

BTW, you're a bit quicker to plug Doc in next to some all-time great coaches than I am.  It took PJ quite a bit of tinkering to get his 10 rings, also true of Pop and Daly.  I'd wait to see if Doc ever wins another coaching ring before putting him in that company--and that's no disrespect to Doc, but he hasn't earned that much yet.  Actually, compared to PJ and Popovich, he isn't really close, right?  Maybe someday, but that's a long way off.

I think we are closer to agreeing with each other than disagreeing.

Constant meddling, constant lineup changes, the stuff Meadowlark is talking about is just a horrible idea. We have seen what it does in the past to several coaches. It's a recipe for disaster.

Rotational changes, minutes adjustment and minor role adjustment, he absolute can and should be doing and it's one of the things I think Doc should be taken to task for. I mean you just don't suddenly take Pierce out of the starting lineup and put Tony in and if that isn't working try Marquis. That's foolish. Pierce is obviously a starter and the other guys aren't.

But reducing Sheed's and Baby's minutes and giving Sheldon some minutes every game, could definitely have been done. In Doc's defense he has gone back and forth with Marquis and Tony when both were healthy and has finally decided on Tony. Nate maybe should have been given the chance to have a regular 12 minutes a night from the get go but I still find something very strange about his benching and think there might be something more there. let's face it, Nate doesn't have the best locker room reputation.

Doc's reliance on 5 man second units, the consistent substitutions no matter how the players were playing, his inability to play starters and bench players together for stretches unless there was foul trouble, the Pierce ISOs, the inability to get Rasheed to stop chucking threes, not getting perk enough minutes when he was playing so well earlier in the year, etc. There are lots of reasons to be critical of Doc. I just think some here are going way over board in areas where Doc has actually been pretty strong.

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Well, although you do come at me and others here too strong, in a sesne what you are saying is what i was alluding too. More sheldon in places, some TA, some PP rotation...as for the starters..I'll never understand that childish notion....but what i have seen, was starting people like leon powe for a change and the results that brought about....so now sheldon....a coach showing he has confidence in a player can induce the player to play with more confidence and produce his best. That IS what leon powe did.....Even scal played better when he started. The attitude of appeasing the pro's constantly, even if they show you over and over again that they lost interest is not the way to go. IT also has proven results.

Challenging players is not meddling, better combinations is not meddling either. I think it is showing that PP and Ray may not work together too well. It is centered on PP. He doesn't know when he is not "The man" at all. The coach needs to step in and adjust that. Also, sure you'd like other teams to adjust to you, or think that way, but if and when they do, then you still have to adjust to them, you have to learn the other team if you expect to master them, you cannot expect to just "hit your shots" all the time. Like the other year when the Cleve coach centered his D on Ray allen...it worked terribly well, a coach will realize this and make an adjustment, doc never did. Never has, he listens to you 100%, and we've seen how that works.!!!