Author Topic: Doc is to Blame!  (Read 7981 times)

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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 11:02:59 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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There's plenty of blame to go Doc's way but as much and more needs to be put squarely on the shoulders of the people who deserve most of it, the players. Doc doesn't come out with no effort. Doc doesn't miss wide open shots and easy layups. Doc isn't constantly going for the flashy play instead of the correct play. Doc isn't the one not hustling after loose balls. Doc isn't missing defensive rotations. Doc isn't being careless with the ball. Doc's game isn't deteriorating before our eyes.


But Doc has not had this team mentally prepared or focused. Doc has not had regular practices or shoot arounds. Doc has not tried the hard line approach with players that haven't been performing. Doc's rotations have been questionable and Doc hasn't placated a very vocal contingent of people that don't like his coaching style because they are aware of everything going on behind the scenes or in the locker room or in practice by changing players roles and playing people that don't normally get playing time.

Blame there is to be given. Blame to the players. Blame to the front office(two really bad off seasons in a row and two trading deadlines with litlle to nothing to show). And blame to the players.

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 11:07:45 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Doc is 75 percent of the problem. Old age, injury, inconsistency is the other 25.


as a coach I can tell you coaching is about 5-10 percent of the reason for a team's success.  I have seen some horrible coaches win games, even state titles and some amazing ones finish at the bottom of the division year after year.  What it comes down to is talent and attitude of the players.  Attitude does reflect the coach's leadership to a degree, but as you move up the ranks from hs to college to the pros this becomes less and less true.  Personally I have had teams that have gone winless, and I really thought it was my coaching, then I realized it was talent when I had a nearly undefeated season without changing my philosophy or methods radically.
So you think we would be in this same situation with Tommy,Jeff van Gundy or Larry Brown coaching this team?

 

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2010, 11:28:01 AM »

Offline CbrewEra

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I'm baffled at some of this guy's choices.  He NEEDS to play Nate.  He sits Nate because he is streaky, but never sat Eddie for being the exact same thing.  Why?
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2010, 11:43:20 AM »

Offline cdif911

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Doc is 75 percent of the problem. Old age, injury, inconsistency is the other 25.


as a coach I can tell you coaching is about 5-10 percent of the reason for a team's success.  I have seen some horrible coaches win games, even state titles and some amazing ones finish at the bottom of the division year after year.  What it comes down to is talent and attitude of the players.  Attitude does reflect the coach's leadership to a degree, but as you move up the ranks from hs to college to the pros this becomes less and less true.  Personally I have had teams that have gone winless, and I really thought it was my coaching, then I realized it was talent when I had a nearly undefeated season without changing my philosophy or methods radically.
So you think we would be in this same situation with Tommy,Jeff van Gundy or Larry Brown coaching this team?

 

Unless you have a masterful coach or a completely inept idiot, neither of which I think Doc fits into, then yes.  I do agree there's differences at the pro level, but not to the point that the coach would make a huge difference.
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2010, 11:44:36 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Doc is 75 percent of the problem. Old age, injury, inconsistency is the other 25.


as a coach I can tell you coaching is about 5-10 percent of the reason for a team's success.  I have seen some horrible coaches win games, even state titles and some amazing ones finish at the bottom of the division year after year.  What it comes down to is talent and attitude of the players.  Attitude does reflect the coach's leadership to a degree, but as you move up the ranks from hs to college to the pros this becomes less and less true.  Personally I have had teams that have gone winless, and I really thought it was my coaching, then I realized it was talent when I had a nearly undefeated season without changing my philosophy or methods radically.
So you think we would be in this same situation with Tommy,Jeff van Gundy or Larry Brown coaching this team?

 
If those guys were coaching THIS particular team with the EXACT same circumstances that happened, I think the difference +/- on total wins would be about 2-3 and I'm not even sure which direction that would be in. A hard nosed, hard line coach might be about the worst thing this team could have had during this season. So while Larry Brown is a better coach than Doc, his style might be overall, worst for this team and created worst results.

Personally, I don't see the love for Jeff Van Gundy. What did he ever win? He's had much more talented teams than Doc has had on a consistent basis and has an incredibly similar record without a championship or a Coach of the Year award to show for it

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 11:49:00 AM »

Offline FatjohnReturns

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Jeff Van Gundy
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College - Nazareth

Jeff Van Gundy joined the Rockets as the 10th head coach in franchise history on June 11, 2003. In three seasons, Van Gundy has guided the Rockets to a 130-116 record, as his winning percentage of .528 stands as the third highest of any coach in Rockets history. Van Gundy also led Houston to consecutive playoff appearances (2003-04, 2004-05), while posting winning records in nine of his 10 NBA seasons. He boasts a career coaching mark of 378-288, as his winning percentage of .568 ranks eighth among active coaches and 22nd in NBA history. Van Gundy also owns a career 41-40 (.506) record in the postseason.

“Jeff Van Gundy is an all-around excellent coach who believes that a strong defense is key for a team to reach the championship level,” Rockets General Manager Carroll Dawson said. “He has set several franchise records for defense, and I look forward to watching him guide the Rockets in the seasons ahead.”

Over the last three offseasons, Van Gundy worked with Dawson to overhaul Houston’s roster. Despite a successful 2003-2004 campaign, which saw the team advance to the playoffs for the first time in five seasons, Van Gundy and Dawson set out to improve the team’s chances for advancing further in the postseason. Despite only Yao Ming, Scott Padgett and Clarence Weatherspoon remaining from the previous year’s playoff roster, Van Gundy guided the 2004-2005 Rockets to the franchise’s best win total since the 1996-97 season with a mark of 51-31 (.622).

Since his arrival, Van Gundy has instilled a defensive mindset that has resulted in the team ranking among the top five in scoring defense and field goal percentage defense in each of the past three seasons. Prior to Van Gundy’s arrival, the Rockets had limited opponents to less than 70 points only twice in 2,920 games in franchise history. The team has accomplished this feat nine times already in the past three campaigns.

Upon his arrival to Houston for the 2003-2004 season, Van Gundy helped the team set franchise single-season records for both scoring defense and field goal percentage defense. The Rockets ranked second in the NBA with a field goal percentage defense of .412 and fifth in the league with a scoring defense of 88.0 points per game. Houston also set a single-game franchise record for defense by holding Utah to 63 points on Jan. 3, 2004. The 2004-2005 Rockets ranked third in the NBA in scoring defense and second in field goal percentage defense, allowing 91.0 points on .423 shooting. Houston again showed their defensive prowess in 2005-2006, ranking fourth in the NBA in scoring defense (91.7) and second in the league in field goal percentage defense (.429).

“I think the only goal that is worthwhile in this league is to pursue a championship,” Van Gundy said. “You may not reach that every year, obviously, but you need to strive each year to be a championship-caliber team with championship-caliber players. That is what we are trying to do here – like they have in the past.”

Prior to joining the Rockets, Van Gundy compiled a 248-172 record in seven seasons as the head coach of the New York Knicks. Van Gundy stands third in Knicks history in coaching wins, trailing only Red Holzman and Joe Lapchick. In Knicks history, Van Gundy’s winning percentage of .590 ranks second behind Pat Riley’s franchise record of .680. Van Gundy became the Knicks head coach on Mar. 8, 1996, when Don Nelson stepped down with 23 games left in the season.

In his first full season as head coach, Van Gundy led the 1996-97 Knicks to a 57-25 record, marking a 10-game improvement over the previous season. New York’s 57 wins matched the third-best total in franchise history and marked the best record ever posted by a Knicks coach in his first full season. Van Gundy stands with Holzman, Rick Pitino and Riley as the only coaches to guide New York to 50 wins in a season. During the 1999-2000 season, Van Gundy registered his second 50-win season with New York. The Knicks finished in second place in the Atlantic Division in four of Van Gundy’s first five seasons. Van Gundy coached the Eastern Conference All-Stars in the 2000 NBA All-Star Game. On Dec. 8, 2001, Van Gundy resigned as head coach of the Knicks. During the 2002-2003 season, he worked with Turner Sports as an analyst on its NBA broadcasts.

New York advanced to the playoffs in each of Van Gundy’s first six seasons, moving past the first round five times. In Knicks history, he trails only Holzman and Lapchick for number of playoff berths. Van Gundy’s most successful playoff run with the Knicks came in 1999, when he became the first coach in NBA history to guide an eighth-seeded team to the NBA Finals. The following season, the Knicks continued their postseason success with a trip to the Eastern Conference Finals.

Defense has always been a trademark of Van Gundy-coached teams. In each of his five full seasons, Van Gundy helped the Knicks to rank among the NBA’s top five in fewest points allowed and among the top three in lowest field goal percentage allowed. Over this five-year span, New York ranked second in the NBA in scoring defense, as its 89.0 points per game allowed trailed only Miami’s mark of 88.6 points per game. During this same stretch, the Knicks led the NBA in field goal percentage defense, as opponents connected on just 42.1 percent of their field goal attempts. Under Van Gundy’s guidance, New York held 33 consecutive opponents to under 100 points from Nov. 11, 2000 to Jan. 21, 2001, which stands as the second-longest stretch in the NBA since the shot clock was introduced in the 1954-55 season.

In his first full season, Van Gundy helped the 1996-97 Knicks limit opponents to 92.2 points per game and a league-low .425 shooting. The following season, New York ranked second in the NBA in both scoring defense and field goal percentage defense, as opponents averaged 89.1 points on .428 shooting. The 1998-99 Knicks restricted opponents to 85.4 points per game on .403 shooting, marking the team’s best scoring defense since the introduction of the shot clock. The following year, the Knicks held opponents to 90.7 points per game on .424 shooting. In the 2000-2001 season, New York led the NBA in both scoring defense and field goal percentage defense, as opponents registered 86.1 points per game on .417 shooting.

Van Gundy joined the Knicks as an assistant coach on July 28, 1989, and spent the next six-and-a-half seasons providing support to Stu Jackson, John MacLeod, Riley and Nelson. New York never finished lower than third in the Atlantic Division during this period, winning three division titles. The Knicks qualified for the playoffs in every year of his tenure as an assistant coach, advancing to the Eastern Conference Finals in 1993 and the NBA Finals vs. Houston the following year.

Van Gundy’s coaching career began in 1985 at McQuaid Jesuit High School in Rochester, New York. The following year, he became a graduate assistant under Pitino at Providence, helping the Friars advance to the Final Four. In his second season at Providence, he was promoted to assistant coach under Gordon Chiesa. The next season, Van Gundy became an assistant coach under Bob Wenzel at Rutgers.

Van Gundy hails from a family of basketball coaches. His father, Bill, retired after four decades of coaching, including 15 seasons as the head coach at Genesee Community College in Batavia, New York. His brother, Stan, replaced Riley as the head coach of the Miami Heat in 2003 and led the team to the playoffs in consecutive seasons.

Van Gundy lives with his family in Houston. He graduated from Nazareth College in Rochester, New York, where he played point guard for two seasons. Van Gundy helped Nazareth College to the NCAA Division III Eastern Regional title in 1984 and was honored with induction into the Nazareth College Sports Hall of Fame in 1996
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 12:09:30 PM »

Offline Tai

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Doc has tried everything with this team. they just dont have any chemistry and they just dont really care.

He's never tried to change the starting lineup. Ray should be the 6th man and Tony should start.

It all makes sense now. It's cause Ray's starting and TA's not....  ::)

With all due respect, I think that'd get Doc tossed quicker. Do you really think  that will pan out in the playoffs when people already say players will play off Rondo in the playoffs?

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 12:15:47 PM »

Offline cdif911

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in comparing JVG to Doc, consider Doc had a similar situation in Orlando where he won coach of the year with a group of overachievers...
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 12:29:51 PM »

Offline cdif911

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the Celtics won it all in 2008 despite Doc

in 2010 they're losing because of Doc

makes perfect sense  ::)
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2010, 01:33:51 PM »

Offline More Banners

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the Celtics won it all in 2008 despite Doc

in 2010 they're losing because of Doc

makes perfect sense  ::)

Actually, I think it does.  Those players in the title year were healthy, near their respective primes, and laser-focused on winning.  All Doc really had to say was "Ubuntu" and they responded, but more out of respect for each other as All-Stars and the best they each had ever played with than out of respect for Doc as a coach.  Doc didn't have to decide which PG to start, because Danny only gave him one.  Doc didn't need to decide who to be the 6th man because Posey was clearly the best guy off the bench and could play/cover multiple positions.  The title team may have been the easiest team to coach in history.

The current team has zero "do-everything" players--each player has emerging flaws or limitations due to either age, injury, or just having a knock on their game (ie Rondo's shooting and Perk's offense).  A coach that can work around those deficiencies could make the team better.  Doc isn't that guy.

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2010, 01:38:47 PM »

Offline Chief

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Doc has tried everything with this team. they just dont have any chemistry and they just dont really care.

He's never tried to change the starting lineup. Ray should be the 6th man and Tony should start.

It all makes sense now. It's cause Ray's starting and TA's not....  ::)

With all due respect, I think that'd get Doc tossed quicker. Do you really think  that will pan out in the playoffs when people already say players will play off Rondo in the playoffs?

Good coaches like Popovich and Karl do it with Ginobili and JR Smith. Being a great 6th man can be more important than starting. Just ask Hondo and McHale. But let's just keep the starting lineup the way it is. It's been working out so well the last few months.
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2010, 01:41:34 PM »

Offline Bahku

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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2010, 01:42:49 PM »

Offline snively

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I think Doc to Van Gundy would change very little.  

The only scenario I could see dumping Doc is if Larry Brown gets antsy and leaves Charlotte.  Larry Brown's ability to assert his will over his players could be very helpful for these Celtics, since our player leadership has crumbled with KG's dominance.
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Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2010, 01:47:07 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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Doc doesn't seem to be getting through to the players anymore.  

I don't think that's his FAULT, though.  I'm not blaming the coaches when the players aren't acting like professionals.  Coaches can't make Rasheed Wallace box out, or guys to dive for loose balls, or to play with a sense of urgency.  I suppose Doc *could* sit players down who aren't playing with a sense of urgency, but realistically, what's he going to do?  Sit down Perk and start Sheldon?  Replace Ray Allen or Paul Pierce in the starting lineup with Quis or TA?  Start Nate, and bring Rondo off the bench?  Let 'Sheed rot on the bench behind Scal or BBD?

Making those kinds of changes is only going to p--- off the veteran players even more, and the only way that we CAN pull this together is if the starting 5 start bringing the effort on a consistent basis.  The guys on the bench behind the starters -even though a lot of these guys are bringing it, they just aren't good enough to play a more significant role.  You simply can't get to the promised land carried by TA and Nate and Big Baby Davis.

So, the vets have tuned out Doc.  Happens.  That's why Larry Legand only coached the Pacers for three years, even though all accounts were that he was a helluva head coach.  Is it Doc's FAULT that 'Sheed's a disrespectful Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. and that KG's now all talk?

I still think Doc's a pretty good coach, not great, but good.  But, the team needs a change.  I'd love to see some wholesale changes among the players, but outside of trading Perk and letting Ray Allen walk, there really isn't much realistically that can be done on that front for at least another year.  

So, maybe it IS time for a new voice.  A screaming-type coach might not work out great - but let's remember that 'Sheed played his absolute best basketball when he had Larry Brown screaming in his ear every day.

You sure aren't turning this team over to a rookie coach.  If you DO make a change, it's either JVG (who I like), or Larry Brown if he gets antsy and walks from Charlotte, or...  maybe Wyc gives Danny the same ultimatum that Kevin McHale got; you picked the players, you go coach them!

Re: Doc is to Blame!
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2010, 02:34:13 PM »

Offline housecall

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Todays NBA it takes 6-9 good to very good players on a team to win consistently,something we(Celtics)do not have night to night.Some nights our first 7 can probably win games but when it comes to matching up with better teams night after night,you have to put a better product out on the floor than what Danny has brought to the table after the first7...a better(stronger)bench could make a world of difference on this team.