Rondo is Average

[BballTim]

I don't think Rondo deserved all-defensive team.  All of you will pipe in with all his steal numbers, but almost all of them are caused by unnecessary gambles that 9/10 times end up in an easy basket.

Jameer Nelson had been tearing through the playoffs.  Rondo has essentially shut him down.  I agree with your steal assessment, but his defense is more than that.  I even agree that at times he pads his rebounding stats, but how exactly does one pad assists?  Making the pass to the open man?  Giving up the ball on the fast break?  One extra pass?  Those are all good basketball.

  Kind of off topic, but Jameer Nelson's court vision is awfully bad. He's dribbling outside the 3 point line and people get wide open in the lane. He doesn't even look up half the time even though they're waiving their arms for the ball.

[fairweatherfan]

I don't think Rondo deserved all-defensive team.  All of you will pipe in with all his steal numbers, but almost all of them are caused by unnecessary gambles that 9/10 times end up in an easy basket.

  I checked his "opposing player" stats on 82games.com near the end of the year. He holds opposing point guards to the fewest assists of any pg, forces the most turnovers, and was in the top 10 for fewest points allowed. He was first team all defense (leading all guards in voting), finished 4th or 5th in defensive player of the year (ahead of all other guards). In a poll of GMs before the season he was chosen the best perimeter defender in the league. At this point in time it's a lot harder to find any evidence that he isn't the best defensive pg in the league than evidence that he is.

Yup - this is like the "Pierce sucks because he misses 55% of his shots" example that someone used in a Doc thread.  Basketball is an offensive game - good offensive players will  score sometimes even against the best defenders.  It's easy to point out mistakes Rondo has made, and times when PGs have put up good numbers against him.  But it means nothing unless you compare it to how other PGs defend. 

Rondo makes mistakes on D, sure, but a lot fewer of them than just about any other PG in the league. We just see more of those mistakes because we watch him more.

[jdpapa3]

Rondo's the best defensive point in the entire league. The whole "reaching in" thing that people like to call him on makes him a nightmare matchup to try and do work against. I think it was interesting that Jameer started to get going last night when Tony Allen was in the game. TA is a great defender, but can't eel his way through his screens like Rondo.

[Thruthelookingglass]

I feel we have a mental edge all the time with rondo. His decision making and pacing everything is just always perfect. He's like chuncey billups in that way only BETTER.

Very good point.  The mental edge also comes from Rondo just frustrating the other team.  When he isn't too fast for them to get in the right defensive position, he'll pull some circus stunt pass or shot--similar to his hotdogging defense.  And he makes a decent percentage of them.  I am sure it is absolutely maddening for players trying to defend him, and I think that's an element of why Orlando seems so dispirited.

[Roy Hobbs]

I don't think Rondo deserved all-defensive team.  All of you will pipe in with all his steal numbers, but almost all of them are caused by unnecessary gambles that 9/10 times end up in an easy basket.

Jameer Nelson had been tearing through the playoffs.  Rondo has essentially shut him down.  I agree with your steal assessment, but his defense is more than that.  I even agree that at times he pads his rebounding stats, but how exactly does one pad assists?  Making the pass to the open man?  Giving up the ball on the fast break?  One extra pass?  Those are all good basketball.

Instance that really stuck in my mind is when Rondo stood still on a fast break and waiting 5 seconds for Perk to show up with a defender to pass it off to him.  "Getting good with the bigs?" I don't think so.

Rondo is not shutting down Jameer Nelson, the Celtics' team defense is.  How many times have opposing point guards lit up the Celtics?  i.e. Baron Davis, Jason Kidd, etc.

Do you think Rondo defers to his teammates on fast breaks to pad his stats, or rather to keep his teammates happy and get them going?  I'd lean toward the latter.

If Rondo were padding his stats, I'd assume that he'd look more for his own points than for an extra assist (an area he is already dominant in).

I think Rondo's contribution actually goes far beyond stats.  Every coach in the playoffs thus far has said that stopping Rondo is the key to their defense, and nobody yet has been able to shut the guy down.  

I'm with you in holding the opinion that Rondo isn't as good as some Celtics fans think.  However, that's only because I don't think he's the best point guard in the NBA (at least not consistently).  However, I'd have him ranked no lower than fourth right now, and maybe third (which is a change from how I felt three weeks ago, when I thought Nash had #3 locked up.)

[fairweatherfan]

Rondo disrupts ball movement the same way Howard disrupts shots - he affects plays even when he doesn't get a hand on the ball.  Teams know he's there and and it hurts their execution.  This multiplies his impact on the game.

[Fan from VT]

I don't think Rondo deserved all-defensive team.  All of you will pipe in with all his steal numbers, but almost all of them are caused by unnecessary gambles that 9/10 times end up in an easy basket.

  I checked his "opposing player" stats on 82games.com near the end of the year. He holds opposing point guards to the fewest assists of any pg, forces the most turnovers, and was in the top 10 for fewest points allowed. He was first team all defense (leading all guards in voting), finished 4th or 5th in defensive player of the year (ahead of all other guards). In a poll of GMs before the season he was chosen the best perimeter defender in the league. At this point in time it's a lot harder to find any evidence that he isn't the best defensive pg in the league than evidence that he is.

Yup - this is like the "Pierce sucks because he misses 55% of his shots" example that someone used in a Doc thread.  Basketball is an offensive game - good offensive players will  score sometimes even against the best defenders.  It's easy to point out mistakes Rondo has made, and times when PGs have put up good numbers against him.  But it means nothing unless you compare it to how other PGs defend. 

Rondo makes mistakes on D, sure, but a lot fewer of them than just about any other PG in the league. We just see more of those mistakes because we watch him more.

I would also add that we are biased to see Rondo's defensive faults because we watch him so much and see him when he gets beat. But we see him get beat a lot for a couple reasons. First, he's defending the point of attack of the other team, so he's defending on the ball a lot, and EVERY on the ball defender gets beat, Rondo's just on the ball a LOT. Second, the rules have made it much easier for fast-dribbling PGs/much harder for defensive PGs. The hand-check rules are set up to have good dribblers beat the defense. Working under those rules, Rondo is an excellent defensive player.

[fairweatherfan]

Yup - this is like the "Pierce sucks because he misses 55% of his shots" example that someone used in a Doc thread.  Basketball is an offensive game - good offensive players will  score sometimes even against the best defenders.  It's easy to point out mistakes Rondo has made, and times when PGs have put up good numbers against him.  But it means nothing unless you compare it to how other PGs defend. 

Rondo makes mistakes on D, sure, but a lot fewer of them than just about any other PG in the league. We just see more of those mistakes because we watch him more.

I would also add that we are biased to see Rondo's defensive faults because we watch him so much and see him when he gets beat. But we see him get beat a lot for a couple reasons. First, he's defending the point of attack of the other team, so he's defending on the ball a lot, and EVERY on the ball defender gets beat, Rondo's just on the ball a LOT. Second, the rules have made it much easier for fast-dribbling PGs/much harder for defensive PGs. The hand-check rules are set up to have good dribblers beat the defense. Working under those rules, Rondo is an excellent defensive player.

I'd add to this that PGs are by far the most likely to get screened off a play - getting around screens is part of a PG's job on defense, but it's not quite the same to have a center knock you off the guy and him score than to have the same guy blow by you straight up.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm not sure if he deserved to be on the defensive team as I've mentioned plenty of times before he has had some weak defensive performances in some areas that I put a lot of value on.

But, during the playoffs he's been playing stellar defense, except for a game here and there (like game 1 of the Cavs), and a couple of plays here and there that he doesn't put the effort one might want from him, but they've been few and quite far in-between.

I've been critical of Rondo in quite a few areas of his game through the years, but he's pretty much doing everything right during this playoffs, he's playing like an elite player, and needs to be acknowledged as such for the time being.

My current pet peeve is when he gets lazy with his passes, particularly entry passes or to Paul Pierce after a switch. There have been a couple of plays where he has given up defensively against Nelson, not even putting the effort to fight a screen, but with the current pace he's running our offense and with him constantly harassing the ball full court, I really can't complain much about it.

I still want to see more improvement in the timing of his passes, particularly with players coming off a screen, and I want to see him being more accurate and better ball speed on his passes. The court vision is there clearly, and he's been finding the open man over and over, but these areas still have room for quite a bit of improvement.

In all, he's been very consistent so far in both sides of the floor, and that padding stats crap is complete foolishness.

[Vermont Green]

Rondo is certainly far better than "average" but do we really think he is the best in the league?  I like his attitude, focus, grittiness, all those intangible things.  He doesn't do dances after dunks or do any show-boating at all he is all business and I love that.  He still can't shoot well enough though to be the best point gaurd in the league.  And the steal (I guess it counts as a steal) is now an all time highlight.  As well as the Celtics are playing, I feel there are a few PG's in the league who would make the Celtics even better.  Chris Paul and Deron Williams for sure and Westbrook is right there too.  Rondo I guess is in my top 5 conversation for sure but that is as high as I can go until he gets a more reliable shot.

  So players that can't pass, rebound, defend or score close to the basket can be better than Rondo simply because they have a better outside shot? Rondo can dominate games against the best teams in the league on a regular basis but he's no better than "in the conversation for top 5 pgs" because of his outside shooting?

  I'm not saying he's undoubtedly the best pg in the league but I'd say he's pretty much put to rest any talk that his jumpshot limits his value or effectiveness.

I am not sure who you are refering to when you say players who
 

can't pass, rebound, defend or score close to the basket

but I try to balance all aspects of a player when I offer an opinion.  I think one aspect of Rondo that is not fully considered is the impact that his man being able to sag off has on the overall team offense.  Rondo is awesome based on his quickness and court vision/BBIQ (what ever you want to call it) but his shooting is a big hole in his game.  I further think that all players (even Chris Paul) have some weaknesses but of these weaknesses, poor shooting is one that have the best chance to improve.  For example players without vision generally don't learn court vision after a few years but players who can't shoot sometimes do develop a serviceable shot.

[celtics2]

Ya gotta be kidding. Rondo average. Rondo is the next SuperStar in the NBA. Hardly breaks a sweat. Fastest in the NBA with more in the tank when one thinks they have a handle on him he's gone by moving it up another speed. Uncanny floor vision and determination. Shots starting to drop. Excellent rebounder. He is hardy. Spends much time on the floor directing players now that Doc has loosened the reigns. His learning curve has been fantastic. No one was more down on him early on. But he has turned the corner and is not looking back and he comes very cheap considering all. He is a franchise bfecause he has awakened Pierce, KG and Allen with stunning timing. These boys have another good season ahead of them now that the machinery is running well.

His only weakness I see presently is good points can pour in points against him. Rondo gambles a lot on defense. However when you have the Big 3 behind you 2 of 3 are usually hot enough to overcome anything. The last point that got my attention was Bob Cousy. Rondo's biggest asset is speed and he is just beginning to use it to our advantage.

[Edgar]

I am handsome

[Roy Hobbs]

I am handsome

Should we spend the next 11 pages attacking this statement?

[Edgar]

I am handsome

Should we spend the next 11 pages attacking this statement?

well at least in this one it will be 3 deffending it, my wife, my mom and me.

[dark_lord]

rondo average, lol.......