Question regarding Nate & Rondo

[PLamb]

Just to show how ridiculous criticism of this particular rotational substitution is, here are the amount of minutes Nate has played and the amount of minutes he has played with Rondo

Nate - Nate w/Rondo

16 - 5:29
17 - 14:17
23 - 9:59
15 - 0:00
20 - 0:00
13 - 5:57 (all in second half)
14 - 3:55 (all but 5 seconds in second half)

So it's pretty obvious to me that Doc played Nate at the shooting guard position with Rondo in his first three games to get him some run and some shooting while he learned the plays

Once Nate started getting a hold of the system and Doc instituted some new "Knick-like" sets for Nate to run, Nate stopped playing with Rondo for the most part

As a matter of fact, Rondo and Nate weren't even on the court playing together for almost 13 straight quarters once Nate breaking in period kind of ended

He's only played been a part of 28 quarters while with the Celtics

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Nate - Nate w/Rondo

16 - 5:29 (4 points, 2 w/Rondo on court)
17 - 14:17(7 points, 6 w/Rondo on court)
23 - 9:59(13 points, 7 w/Rondo on court)
15 - 0:00(14 points)
20 - 0:00(16 points)
13 - 5:57 (all in second half)(5 points, 2 w/Rondo on court)
14 - 3:55 (all but 5 seconds in second half) (0 points)

In a VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE, it's pretty clear SO FAR that Nate tends to score at a better rate with the ball in his hands and not as a spot-up shooter.  That means, he plays better when he's the point and Rondo's resting.

In 39.5 minutes of playing time with Rondo, Nate scored 17 points, or an average of .43 points/minute.  In roughly 78.5 minutes of playing time w/o Rondo, Nate scored 42 points, or an average of .53 points/minute. 

It's my contention that Nate is more comfortable playing with the ball in his hands; and that we should attempt to use him more as backup point and less as backup 2.  I also think that Rondo tends to play better when his minutes are limited to 35-38 per game.  As Nate provides much needed scoring, he's going to play some of his time with Rondo.  However, at some point, playing with Rondo takes away some of the very scoring that necessitates playing a small backcourt in the first place. 

Throwing the first 3 games out, which were learning experiences for Nate (and Doc), I think the last 4 games (yes, a very small sample size as I'll continue to point out) show that Nate's scoring bursts come when he's given free reign to run a bunch of pick and rolls and jack at will.  On the other hand, if Nate fails to connect in the first half, Doc often panics and plays a Rondo/Nate backcourt in the 2nd half, usually to the detriment of both players.  To me, Doc needs to learn to trust Nate (like he trusted House) and trust the kind of game he possesses, while at the same time trusting his 2nd unit to play well in the 2nd half.  Right now, Doc panics if the 2nd unit falters or struggles in the 1st half.  I'd like to see him continue to develop Nate by trusting him to lead the 2nd unit in the 2nd half, even if the 1st half didn't go well.

[PLamb]

Once again we see just how premature and ridiculous this particular criticism is as Nate didn't play a single second with Rondo

Maybe he should have as Nate's handling of the offense in the second half was awful

But, can't have that happening, right, because that would be a huge Doc-ism, wouldn't it

[ScoobyDoo]

To me, the reason I wrote the post is because it is indicative of "my" perception of Doc's mind boggling rotations, his very bad inability to adjust on the fly and his pnesion for lineups that make you scratch your head...like, "ok, who can possibly score with this lineup!?"

I remember watching a game 2-3 years ago. Danny Fortson was throwing our guys all over the place for the better part of the first half. I think we were up like 15, Fortson comes in and just starts mauling our bigs and it's a tie game with about 2 minutes to go before the half.
Meanwhile, Perkins and Big Baby, the only two guys we have who could slap Fortson around, remained anchored to the bench for a quarter and a half. Lo and behold, Doc finally, FINALLY puts in Baby, he checks Fortson and we stretch the lead back up to 8 by half time, in two minutes, because Fortson isn't grabbing every rebound.

So when I see Nate and Rondo together I don't like it. It doesn't make sense.

I just look at some of the roatations and say, why would you even put this lineup on the floor. And I don't think it's that Doc's a genius and we can't understand why.

If you're getting mauled by Fortson, you put your big on him.
If Bogut is killing Perk, try KG on him, try Baby on him. Perk gets roasted every time by Bogut. And I guarantee if we see the Bucks, Bogut will roast Perkins, every night and the next night Doc will march Perkins out there again to get toasted.

Doc loves getting punched in the nose, over and over and over again.

if you have Rondo, play him at the point, stop trying to be cute and clever and a pocket genius.

If you have Rondo & Nate, play him at the point.
If you have Ray, TA and Quisy, play them at off guard.
If Bogut is having yet another career night, take Perkins off him, put Baby on him and tell Baby don't let him get near the lane. Make it physical.
If Salmons is rolling by Ray and Pierce blows this particualr night, put Ray at Small and have Tony paly Salmons...

You don't have Karl Malone and try to be cute by playing him at SF.

I am more concerned about Doc's inability to manage his roster than I am about whtehr our guys have what it takes to win it again this year.

We have more than enough, but Doc needs to use it right. And that is asking, ALOT.
     

[PLamb]

To me, the reason I wrote the post is because it is indicative of "my" perception of Doc's mind boggling rotations, his very bad inability to adjust on the fly and his pnesion for lineups that make you scratch your head...like, "ok, who can possibly score with this lineup!?"

I remember watching a game 2-3 years ago. Danny Fortson was throwing our guys all over the place for the better part of the first half. I think we were up like 15, Fortson comes in and just starts mauling our bigs and it's a tie game with about 2 minutes to go before the half.
Meanwhile, Perkins and Big Baby, the only two guys we have who could slap Fortson around, remained anchored to the bench for a quarter and a half. Lo and behold, Doc finally, FINALLY puts in Baby, he checks Fortson and we stretch the lead back up to 8 by half time, in two minutes, because Fortson isn't grabbing every rebound.

So when I see Nate and Rondo together I don't like it. It doesn't make sense.

I just look at some of the roatations and say, why would you even put this lineup on the floor. And I don't think it's that Doc's a genius and we can't understand why.

If you're getting mauled by Fortson, you put your big on him.
If Bogut is killing Perk, try KG on him, try Baby on him. Perk gets roasted every time by Bogut. And I guarantee if we see the Bucks, Bogut will roast Perkins, every night and the next night Doc will march Perkins out there again to get toasted.

Doc loves getting punched in the nose, over and over and over again.

if you have Rondo, play him at the point, stop trying to be cute and clever and a pocket genius.

If you have Rondo & Nate, play him at the point.
If you have Ray, TA and Quisy, play them at off guard.
If Bogut is having yet another career night, take Perkins off him, put Baby on him and tell Baby don't let him get near the lane. Make it physical.
If Salmons is rolling by Ray and Pierce blows this particualr night, put Ray at Small and have Tony paly Salmons...

You don't have Karl Malone and try to be cute by playing him at SF.

I am more concerned about Doc's inability to manage his roster than I am about whtehr our guys have what it takes to win it again this year.

We have more than enough, but Doc needs to use it right. And that is asking, ALOT.
     

So basically since your criticism of Doc and Nate being used together has been explained away and is now being shown not to be happening as much, and since the Celtics lost last night because, in your and others minds, Doc didn't go against his substitution pattern and play Wallace late in the game instead of Perk, you are going to move the goal posts and complain about Doc's total substitution rotations

Okay

[PLamb]

Maybe you should go back and change the name of the title then because since the Nate and Rondo thing is a non issue and this is going to become about Doc's substitution patterns, the title should reflect that

[ScoobyDoo]

Plamb, can you pls go back and read the original post?

It states in the first line that the way Doc was using Nate and Rondo together was an example of poor player rotations that, to me, were indicative of a larger problems reagrding the entire roster and player rotations.

Trust me, I will be very happy if I never see Rondo and nate on the floor together ever again.

I go on to say how I see this as a bigger concern, IMHO, than whether or not the players we have can win a ring. I think they can win a ring as constituted.

I see the biggest obstacle to winning another ring being Doc's mis-management of rotations and inability to adjust "in game", not the players Ainge has asembled.

The Rondo and Nate example was a microcosm example of the larger overall issue I have with Doc, which I clearly stated in the OP.

How did I move the goal posts?