Question regarding Nate & Rondo

[hpantazo]

Well, I guess it's alright as long as they aren't getting exploited offensively of defensively.

But at 6'1" and 170 or whatever Rondo is, it just seems odd to play him at off guard where most guys are 6'5+.

Also, Rondo is such a natural point. It would be like putting Robinson on the floor with Nash, Paul or any of the other  smallish points in the league.

I just don't get it. But why overplay Rondo at off when you have TA, Ray and Quisy for that job.

When Rondo's not at the point, I want him resting so he can come in and light people up again. When he's resting I watn Nate going 120 MPH wreaking havoc.   

Because if you gave Doc Nate, Rondo, Spud Webb, Mugsy Bogues, and Earl Watson he would play them all together. He loves small ball.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

This is just another Doc Rivers mismanagement special.  Take Nate Robinson and his mad handle and ability to create his own shot and effectively relegate him to a spot-up shooter (the least effective part of his offensive package).

Playing a super-small backcourt when House was here was an alright move because House had to have someone set him up to be successful.  But with Nate?  It actually takes the best part of his game--his ability to handle the ball and create his own shot--and minimizes it.  As always, when faced with pigeon-holing a guy into a role, or creating a role around a guy's skills, Doc chooses the former, using Nate just like he had Eddie House's game. 

Nate should be playing the majority of his minutes at point guard, where his tendency to dominate the ball and jack shoots is best used (and best needed by this team).  Given Nate's ability to score 10 points in a minute, he's going to get a little time at 2 guard (with Rondo at 1), but I'd do my best to limit these instances to games when Nate has already got into the flow.  What's happened the last couple games is that Doc has played Nate with Rondo from the get-go, and Nate just stands at the line and doesn't get his game going AT ALL.  Playing Nate off-the-ball only makes his less aggresive and less of a shot jacker--we actually need the EXACT OPPOSITE.

If I were Doc, I'd play an energy 2nd unit with Nate/TA/Daniels/Baby/Sheed (or Sheldon).  The real reason the 2nd unit exploded last week was because they were defending on the perimeter and getting buckets in transition.  On an old team, we need that speed and aggression factor.  My biggest fear with Doc at the helm is that he'll get too comfortable using Rondo with Nate (making Nate into the new Eddie House when he's not) and sacrificing defense and speed for a few corner 3s from Finley (and sitting TA/Daniels as a result).  THAT 2nd unit won't be nearly as effective....

[Tai]

Maybe I am simply mistaken, but I thought the only time Rondo really played with Nate was during the Cleveland game, and maybe with the Nets, but I can't remember (who really wants to?). Still, I thought that was cause Nate didn't know the system enough to be the backup PG, so Doc made the 2nd unit a running unit with Rondo. Against Cleveland, that worked....for a half. Then, things started to fall apart in the 3rd quarter. MAYBE if Doc decided to play Nate as PG in the start of the 4th and gave Rondo a breather, he would've been able to finish that game stronger than he did and we would've possibly had a chance.

Anyways, come the start of March, I think Nate has clearly been running the 2nd unit as PG, while Rondo's gotten some well-needed rest. Again, like Brendan pointed out, if Rondo and Nate truly get the minutes they should, them playing together as the backcourt for a few minutes will probably be inevitable, and that's ok. Rondo, for example, has only played more than 40 minutes once in the five games (41 vs Philly) since he played those 45 minutes against Cleveland. In that same period, Nate's gotten 23, 15, 20, 13, and 14; at least 10 minutes in each game, and at least 20 in two. For what serves as games 3 to 7 for him as a Celtic, those are decent minutes to me, and assuming they increase, Rondo will get more than enough rest down the stretch and be ready for the playoffs.

Overall, I'm not worried.

[arctic 3.0]

Well, I guess it's alright as long as they aren't getting exploited offensively of defensively.

But at 6'1" and 170 or whatever Rondo is, it just seems odd to play him at off guard where most guys are 6'5+.

Also, Rondo is such a natural point. It would be like putting Robinson on the floor with Nash, Paul or any of the other  smallish points in the league.

I just don't get it. But why overplay Rondo at off when you have TA, Ray and Quisy for that job.

When Rondo's not at the point, I want him resting so he can come in and light people up again. When he's resting I watn Nate going 120 MPH wreaking havoc.   

Because if you gave Doc Nate, Rondo, Spud Webb, Mugsy Bogues, and Earl Watson he would play them all together. He loves small ball.

in this line up rondo plays point forward
spud at center

[PLamb]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

[Tai]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

Like I said, if Rondo and Nate get the minutes they should be getting, they'll play with each other for a while, and that's ok!

[mmbaby]

I just want to see Rhondo kept healthy. I think it was real smart of Doc to get Nate. Rhondo was playing almost full games before he came. Rhondo needs to have rest at times. If you play someone too many minutes, he'll be more prone to injury. IMHO

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

No; we're complaining about the consequences of playing them together and how we should attempt to minimize these instances since they result--if overused--in a tired Rondo and an ineffective Nate. 

Averages really don't tell the story, especially after only 7 games.  So far, there have been games where Nate has been given the PG reigns (while Rondo sits) and other games where Nate's played 2 guard while Rondo has basically played the entire game/half.  And you know what?  Nate's been practically invisible when he's played 2 guard, while Rondo's been seemingly fatigued by the end.

[PLamb]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

No; we're complaining about the consequences of playing them together and how we should attempt to minimize these instances since they result--if overused--in a tired Rondo and an ineffective Nate. 

Averages really don't tell the story, especially after only 7 games.  So far, there have been games where Nate has been given the PG reigns (while Rondo sits) and other games where Nate's played 2 guard while Rondo has basically played the entire game/half.  And you know what?  Nate's been practically invisible when he's played 2 guard, while Rondo's been seemingly fatigued by the end.

So you don't think that 5 + minutes a game is minimizing playing them together?

Pish posh the numbers all you want but they haven't played together a lot

This is mountain and mole hill stuff here

[clover]

I can guaranty you that Nate would rather add a couple of minutes at the 2 in with his time backing up Rondo than be relegated to only playing when Rondo is not on the court.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

No; we're complaining about the consequences of playing them together and how we should attempt to minimize these instances since they result--if overused--in a tired Rondo and an ineffective Nate. 

Averages really don't tell the story, especially after only 7 games.  So far, there have been games where Nate has been given the PG reigns (while Rondo sits) and other games where Nate's played 2 guard while Rondo has basically played the entire game/half.  And you know what?  Nate's been practically invisible when he's played 2 guard, while Rondo's been seemingly fatigued by the end.

So you don't think that 5 + minutes a game is minimizing playing them together?

The average is probably higher than I'd like, not the 5 minutes a game part, but the 33% of Nate's total minutes part.  The problem is, it is an average, meaning that the 10 minutes-a-night stints that are included in that average are worrisome to me and, as I pointed out, constitute what we're really talking about (i.e., overplaying Rondo and putting Nate at 2).  Your limited-sample-size averages, while interesting (in the grand sense), really don't touch on the crux of the issue mainly because we're not talking statistics--we're talking about how lineups and substitution patters affect production.

See, there's a funny thing with averages--they tend to minimize the extremes of what they're averaging.  Pointing out that the average minimizes Doc's extreme coaching miscues doesn't really address the miscues themselves.  We really haven't gotten the best out of Rondo or Nate when we play them heavy minutes together.  When you come around later pointing out that Doc hasn't made that same mistake every game, it isn't exactly instructive...

Pish posh the numbers all you want but they haven't played together a lot

This is mountain and mole hill stuff here

The mole hill is the sample size of Nate's time in green.  The mountain is using a limited sample size to dimiss claims that Doc often fails to substitute and put out lineups that maximize his team's talent, claims which make up the essence of this and many other threads.

[PLamb]

And dealing only in the extremes negates what is happening most of the time

Most of the time, Nate and Rondo aren't playing together that much and hence, this is not a big deal

[BballTim]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

No; we're complaining about the consequences of playing them together and how we should attempt to minimize these instances since they result--if overused--in a tired Rondo and an ineffective Nate. 

Averages really don't tell the story, especially after only 7 games.  So far, there have been games where Nate has been given the PG reigns (while Rondo sits) and other games where Nate's played 2 guard while Rondo has basically played the entire game/half.  And you know what?  Nate's been practically invisible when he's played 2 guard, while Rondo's been seemingly fatigued by the end.

  What's happened hasn't necessarily been ideal but we need to get ready for the playoffs, with the shorter rotations. If Nate's going to play more than 8-9 minutes a game in the playoffs then he's going to be playing some minutes with Rondo.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

And dealing only in the extremes negates what is happening most of the time

Most of the time, Nate and Rondo aren't playing together that much and hence, this is not a big deal

And averages present an unrealistic picture of what's really happening.

As for the equation that:

Things that don't happen most of the time = not a big deal

I strongly disagree, both in regards to this topic and life in general.  It's the things that don't happen very often that define life.

[Tai]

Okay, Nate Robinson has played a total of 7 whole games with the Celtics

A total of 119 minutes

According to 82games.com, in Robinson's top 10 5-man rotations, he has played with Rondo for about 23.2 minutes with all top 10 rotations equaling 70.7 minutes

So following that percentage Robinson may have played 32.8% of his minutes with Rondo on the floor or a total of 39 minutes total, possibly or an average of 5.57 minutes per game or 2.78 minutes per half

Are we really complaining about Doc playing Nate at SG and Rondo at PG for a total of 2.78 minutes PER HALF?

Seems like to get everyone their minutes and touches Rondo and Nate will have to be on the floor together at some time during each game

No; we're complaining about the consequences of playing them together and how we should attempt to minimize these instances since they result--if overused--in a tired Rondo and an ineffective Nate. 

Averages really don't tell the story, especially after only 7 games.  So far, there have been games where Nate has been given the PG reigns (while Rondo sits) and other games where Nate's played 2 guard while Rondo has basically played the entire game/half.  And you know what?  Nate's been practically invisible when he's played 2 guard, while Rondo's been seemingly fatigued by the end.

So you don't think that 5 + minutes a game is minimizing playing them together?

The average is probably higher than I'd like, not the 5 minutes a game part, but the 33% of Nate's total minutes part.  The problem is, it is an average, meaning that the 10 minutes-a-night stints that are included in that average are worrisome to me and, as I pointed out, constitute what we're really talking about (i.e., overplaying Rondo and putting Nate at 2).  Your limited-sample-size averages, while interesting (in the grand sense), really don't touch on the crux of the issue mainly because we're not talking statistics--we're talking about how lineups and substitution patters affect production.

See, there's a funny thing with averages--they tend to minimize the extremes of what they're averaging.  Pointing out that the average minimizes Doc's extreme coaching miscues doesn't really address the miscues themselves.  We really haven't gotten the best out of Rondo or Nate when we play them heavy minutes together.  When you come around later pointing out that Doc hasn't made that same mistake every game, it isn't exactly instructive...

Pish posh the numbers all you want but they haven't played together a lot

This is mountain and mole hill stuff here

The mole hill is the sample size of Nate's time in green.  The mountain is using a limited sample size to dimiss claims that Doc often fails to substitute and put out lineups that maximize his team's talent, claims which make up the essence of this and many other threads.

Ok, let me make me sure I know what your problem is.Is it that Rondo is playing too much due to small ball, or do you think that small ball with Rondo/Nate is ineffective in general, such as easy to be posted up, etc?

If it's the former, well like I said, since AT LEAST March, which would give us 4 games, Nate has had more time being the backup PG while Rondo gets rest. This has given Rondo more rest, and like I said again, Rondo has only played 40 minutes once since the Cleveland game. That's 1 out of 5 games. Slowly but surely, I think it's clear Nate's giving us dividends for the reasons we wanted him too.

If it's the latter, well, look at the Cleveland game. In the 2nd quarter, Rondo and Nate in the backcourt made us a faster team, even if Rondo did just play 12 minutes in the 1st quarter. It got us a lead that we may have had no business giving up, Shaq or no Shaq. If Doc had rested Rondo at the start of the 4th, I would've been ok with Doc running Rondo out there that long; personally, I was willing to see Rondo play 40+ minutes for that night, with the mindset that he gets a day's rest before the Celtics played the Nets on Saturday, possibly blow them out, and maybe Rondo doesn't even have to play 30 minutes then. Maybe Doc thought the same thing, maybe not.

As of now, it's clear Doc has put Nate out there as our backup PG like we wanted, and that will mean less minutes for Rondo. To me, this problem has been solved, for the time being.