Bill Walker's play with the Knicks...(merged)

[Induna]

you have basically made a judgement on 3 minutes of play  - I think the Doc should be replaced by you.

Look I am not getting into this discussion - was just sayong Walker is getting some minutes and I am happy for the kid (although I feel slightly bad for him because this Knicks team really sucks - meaning they will probably beat Boston  .

No I have made my decision based on watching him in 4-6 college basketball games, 260 or so minutes of time with the Celtics, 3 Summer League games and 2 NBDL games

He's not a good defensive player

Ok I believe you errr I think just wondering why he was drafted why he was considered a lottery pick before his injury and why Danny Ainge called him a good player. But heck we will go with your opinion

So by your logic anyone drafted 47th or higher in the NBA Draft is a good defensive player?

I never said he was a bad overall player

He is just a bad defensive player that is most effective as a total player when he can shoot unconsciously without having to play within a system

The league is full of players like that

dude you seriously pick one thing that I mentioned out of 3... There are a lot of players not drafted at all

I never said he was a good defensive players I said I had not seen enough to know.

[PLamb]

you have basically made a judgement on 3 minutes of play  - I think the Doc should be replaced by you.

Look I am not getting into this discussion - was just sayong Walker is getting some minutes and I am happy for the kid (although I feel slightly bad for him because this Knicks team really sucks - meaning they will probably beat Boston  .

No I have made my decision based on watching him in 4-6 college basketball games, 260 or so minutes of time with the Celtics, 3 Summer League games and 2 NBDL games

He's not a good defensive player

Ok I believe you errr I think just wondering why he was drafted why he was considered a lottery pick before his injury and why Danny Ainge called him a good player. But heck we will go with your opinion

So by your logic anyone drafted 47th or higher in the NBA Draft is a good defensive player?

I never said he was a bad overall player

He is just a bad defensive player that is most effective as a total player when he can shoot unconsciously without having to play within a system

The league is full of players like that

dude you seriously pick one thing that I mentioned out of 3... There are a lot of players not drafted at all

I never said he was a good defensive players I said I had not seen enough to know.

And I feel I have

[RJ87]

I've always hated this argument, because we sign vets and no matter how effective (or ineffective for that matter), Doc gives them playing time. He usually doesn't give the rooks the same benefit, even if they seem to many outside observers as worthy of the chance. This was more glaring last year, when we were hurting with injuries in the wing positions and Doc kept overplaying Ray and Pierce needlessly, when he could've easily given Walker a bit of playing time consistently. And yet, from the first day Marbury and Moore were available, he gave them vast playing time.

I concur.

I think Marbury played his first day with the team. Dude didn't even play ball for months. But Doc somehow found minutes for Marbury on his first day. Doc philosophies needs re-thinking. Billy should've gotten a lot more minutes last season. We got marquis now, I'll give Doc a pass this season.


What about Powe? Dude is already ballin!! Rather have Powe busted knee than Shelden or Scal

I don't often defend Doc.  I think he deserves criticism for lots of things.  Playing young players isn't one of them.  The '07-08 team had four very young players in Rondo, Perkins, BBD, and Powe in their rotation.  To say that a guy who has four guys that young in his championship rotation doesn't play youngsters is just plain ludicrous.  

TP for you.
People keep saying that Doc doesn't like young players - Well, Glen Davis was once a young player, Leon Powe was a young player, Rajon Rondo was a young player. But those guys have gained respect as being smart players. I'm not saying that Walker and Giddens weren't, but with a team built to win now you're gonna lean towards the guys who clearly "get it" right away, as opposed to the ones who are incredibly athletic but opt to make the highlight play instead of the fundamentally sound play.

Our team tends to puts more emphasis on high basketball IQ than raw athleticism.  What's the one thing you always hear about most of our players?? They have high basketball IQ.

So yea, Walker had some great dunks, but does that translate into being a potentially great player? Are athleticism and basketball IQ mutually exclusive? I don't think so. We see a few dunks every now and then, but their coaches see those guys in practice everyday and are familiar with their thought process.

[Larry for 3]

lol @ making judgements on NBA players who have played less than what 200 min in their career, huge sample size there---- some who follow the NBA might say Pierce and Allen played zero D until KG showed up, the Walker plays zero D argument is laughable-- the guy's never had consistent NBA minutes

[Induna]

I've always hated this argument, because we sign vets and no matter how effective (or ineffective for that matter), Doc gives them playing time. He usually doesn't give the rooks the same benefit, even if they seem to many outside observers as worthy of the chance. This was more glaring last year, when we were hurting with injuries in the wing positions and Doc kept overplaying Ray and Pierce needlessly, when he could've easily given Walker a bit of playing time consistently. And yet, from the first day Marbury and Moore were available, he gave them vast playing time.

I concur.

I think Marbury played his first day with the team. Dude didn't even play ball for months. But Doc somehow found minutes for Marbury on his first day. Doc philosophies needs re-thinking. Billy should've gotten a lot more minutes last season. We got marquis now, I'll give Doc a pass this season.


What about Powe? Dude is already ballin!! Rather have Powe busted knee than Shelden or Scal

I don't often defend Doc.  I think he deserves criticism for lots of things.  Playing young players isn't one of them.  The '07-08 team had four very young players in Rondo, Perkins, BBD, and Powe in their rotation.  To say that a guy who has four guys that young in his championship rotation doesn't play youngsters is just plain ludicrous.  

TP for you.
People keep saying that Doc doesn't like young players - Well, Glen Davis was once a young player, Leon Powe was a young player, Rajon Rondo was a young player. But those guys have gained respect as being smart players. I'm not saying that Walker and Giddens weren't, but with a team built to win now you're gonna lean towards the guys who clearly "get it" right away, as opposed to the ones who are incredibly athletic but opt to make the highlight play instead of the fundamentally sound play.

Our team tends to puts more emphasis on high basketball IQ than raw athleticism.  What's the one thing you always hear about most of our players?? They have high basketball IQ.

So yea, Walker had some great dunks, but does that translate into being a potentially great player? Are athleticism and basketball IQ mutually exclusive? I don't think so. We see a few dunks every now and then, but their coaches see those guys in practice everyday and are familiar with their thought process.

While I agree with a lot of what you said the Walker is only good at dunks argument is just npt true. He may be bad at D but he has the full range of offensive weapons, he's enthusiastic and he crashes the boards. Stop with the dunks argument.

[PLamb]

lol @ making judgements on NBA players who have played less than what 200 min in their career, huge sample size there---- some who follow the NBA might say Pierce and Allen played zero D until KG showed up, the Walker plays zero D argument is laughable-- the guy's never had consistent NBA minutes

So in your opinion if you feel you have a good handle on judging basketball talent how many minutes do you need to see a player play before knowing whether he can play defense

500

1000

10000

How many minutes suddenly makes the notion of making a decision on someone's ability not laughable

Here's a statement you may or may not think is laughable

My guess is that professional basketball scouts, coaches, players and general managers probably get a very good idea as to how good a player can play defense after watching them play in a game for 5 minutes

Is that laughable

[Tai]

Walker scoring 21 points is admirable. Let's see if he can keep this up.

[Larry for 3]

lol @ making judgements on NBA players who have played less than what 200 min in their career, huge sample size there---- some who follow the NBA might say Pierce and Allen played zero D until KG showed up, the Walker plays zero D argument is laughable-- the guy's never had consistent NBA minutes

So in your opinion if you feel you have a good handle on judging basketball talent how many minutes do you need to see a player play before knowing whether he can play defense

500

1000

10000

How many minutes suddenly makes the notion of making a decision on someone's ability not laughable

Here's a statement you may or may not think is laughable

My guess is that professional basketball scouts, coaches, players and general managers probably get a very good idea as to how good a player can play defense after watching them play in a game for 5 minutes

Is that laughable

Yeah, because those pro coaches, gm's, and scouts never make mistakes right???  No NBA player who wasn't ever given a chance NEVER slips through the cracks, right???  it happens all the time with plenty of players,  if that wasnt the case then all the players who had good carers from the 2nd round or undrafted would have gone in the lottery insead--- you get the idea

[vinnie]

Every time I see a thread like this I ask the same question: name me one young player that Doc refused to play who is now making an impact on his current NBA team. The answer of course is, there are none.

[sk7326]

And how many have the Cavs scored on the Knicks at this point?  74 points at halftime.  It's a disgrace.   

I can't believe D'Antoni keeps getting jobs.  In a league where defense wins games, he keeps getting jobs despite not caring about it. 

if getting to Western Finals and second round almost series wins against the Spurs represent bad coaching - really there are only a couple of competent coaches around.  (and the better Phoenix teams actually weren't bad defensively, they just played a very fast pace) He's a better coach than Doc ... and given what happened in Phoenix since ...

[More Banners]

lol @ making judgements on NBA players who have played less than what 200 min in their career, huge sample size there---- some who follow the NBA might say Pierce and Allen played zero D until KG showed up, the Walker plays zero D argument is laughable-- the guy's never had consistent NBA minutes

So in your opinion if you feel you have a good handle on judging basketball talent how many minutes do you need to see a player play before knowing whether he can play defense

500

1000

10000

How many minutes suddenly makes the notion of making a decision on someone's ability not laughable

Here's a statement you may or may not think is laughable

My guess is that professional basketball scouts, coaches, players and general managers probably get a very good idea as to how good a player can play defense after watching them play in a game for 5 minutes

Is that laughable

I have more faith in Danny than I do in Doc.  

If he got a spot on the team, Danny saw something worth not only using the draft pick on him, but signing him to some guaranteed money when he didn't have to (could've retained rights while he played elsewhere).  And I don't think trading him away is a knock on him; I think NYK knew what they were doing and really wanted him.

It makes no sense to me to assess a player who isn't playing under Doc by that fact alone (and minimal PT).  Doc plays his rotation, and doesn't change it unless he absolutely has to.  Doc didn't play Powe and BBD until injuries forced his hand, and there simply was no other PG on the roster beside Rondo, so he had no choice there, either.

While it may be true that guys like Doc can assess a player in 5 minutes, there is little a player can do to change his mind after that moment.  Doc's stubbornness on rotations has cost us games, and his closed-mindedness may cost the franchise some talented prospects in the long run as well.

Good for Billy, though.  2-5 from 3pt, with a steal and a block, in 35 minutes.  5 boards, too.

[buellj814]

Every time I see a thread like this I ask the same question: name me one young player that Doc refused to play who is now making an impact on his current NBA team. The answer of course is, there are none.

exactly vinnie and have u ever noticed evrybody just ignores the question?? NOBODY ever gives an answer and thats what makes this argument ridiculous and INCREDIBLY annoying 

[sk7326]

it is also possible that Walker can thrive in D'Antoni's system which emphasizes shooting and running and limiting mistakes and fouls ...

Doc's system is sophisticated but the Celtics are not an up-tempo team in the least though they have some up tempo athletes.  But the Celtics emphasize power and physicality much more - maybe it's just now what Walker does great.

That his pro future is more viable than Giddens is obvious, and always has been.

[Who]

Every time I see a thread like this I ask the same question: name me one young player that Doc refused to play who is now making an impact on his current NBA team. The answer of course is, there are none.

Zaza Pachulia?

Edit: I take it back. Zaza played more for Doc in Orlando than I remembered. 11mpg for 60 games. I thought he thinking of him in the third string center role before leaving for Milwaukee where he showed himself to be a quality role player.

[buellj814]

Every time I see a thread like this I ask the same question: name me one young player that Doc refused to play who is now making an impact on his current NBA team. The answer of course is, there are none.

Zaza Pachulia?

thats great Zaza Pachuila is the biggest name brought up.. i mean the hawks would be like a 20 win team without zaza  .. im not trying to jump on u who, but isnt that a bit of a joke that the biggest name is a guy playing 12 minutes a night?