Kevin Martin is the BEST option for this team.

[Greenbean]

It's an obvious trade until the moment you realize that we really have no idea if taking back Nocioni's contract is all it would take to land Martin.

I think that after the Gasol trade people have significantly started to overrated cap relief as trade bait.

I really, really doubt that Martin is available to anyone who is willing to take Nocioni along. Even teams who everyone knows are desperate to shed larger contracts expect something in return. The suns are shopping Amare to anyone around, but still want a young player and a 1st back.

I disagree.

Cap flexibility is still king if you want to rebuild a team. If anything, that Gasol deal cemented that. The Grizzlies are already on their way with an exciting affordable young core.

Until this summer, when they have to decide whether they want to pay Gay star money.  Then, suddenly it is not all that affordable anymore.

And they also ended up getting tremendous value out of the Gasol trade other than the cap relief...particularly in Gasol's brother, who was looked at by many as a throw-in.

I agree about Gay and I dont think they should pay him star money at all. They could go out and get a lesser talent (or equal Im not big on Rudy) and still compete for the playoffs with what they put together.

To your Gasol point it just furthers my point. The point dlpin was making was that since the Gasol trade, teams are weary to give awway top teir talent for cap relief. Well that trade worked out well for Memphis. Not all of them do but that trade certainly didnt change the landscape of how rebuilding teams approach trading.

[StartOrien]

While neither will happen, I think Andre Igoudala is the BEST option for our team.

[ssspence]

It's an obvious trade until the moment you realize that we really have no idea if taking back Nocioni's contract is all it would take to land Martin.

I think that after the Gasol trade people have significantly started to overrated cap relief as trade bait.

I really, really doubt that Martin is available to anyone who is willing to take Nocioni along. Even teams who everyone knows are desperate to shed larger contracts expect something in return. The suns are shopping Amare to anyone around, but still want a young player and a 1st back.

I disagree.

Cap flexibility is still king if you want to rebuild a team. If anything, that Gasol deal cemented that. The Grizzlies are already on their way with an exciting affordable young core.

Until this summer, when they have to decide whether they want to pay Gay star money.  Then, suddenly it is not all that affordable anymore.

And they also ended up getting tremendous value out of the Gasol trade other than the cap relief...particularly in Gasol's brother, who was looked at by many as a throw-in.

While the Grizz have done a good job using their cap space to facilitate deals / make themselves money (not to mention on the Randolph deal), i think a better example of taking advantage of cap space is the Thunder.

Presti has done a great job building a team thru cap space by NOT signing FAs just to sign them ala Dumars. The Kurt Thomas and Matt Harpering deals are excellent examples of this.

The Kings could put themselves in the position to do the same if they could rid themselves of some bad contracts with the good ones (i.e. Noce with Martin). But can they? And if they could, are they smart enough to do so?

[IBLEEDGREEN30]

ray allen outplayed kevin martin in spades last night.. i don't see the hype..rays an old man.. looked fine..

[Brickowski]

I don't think Ray Allen outplayed Martin.  But it was clear that Martin, while a gifted offensive player, is not up to snuff defensively.  He tried to fake it by flopping, but the refs weren't buying it.

Frankly, I'd rather have Hinrich, who is good at both ends of the floor and can play the point.

[Chris]

To your Gasol point it just furthers my point. The point dlpin was making was that since the Gasol trade, teams are weary to give awway top teir talent for cap relief. Well that trade worked out well for Memphis. Not all of them do but that trade certainly didnt change the landscape of how rebuilding teams approach trading.

What I am saying is that they got significantly more than just cap relief.  They got 2 first rounders, a guy who was a mid first rounder the previous year, and a European player who was starting to break out a bit in Europe at the time of the trade.

So I don't think that is comparable to a team giving away a player like Kevin Martin just for the opportunity to open up some extra cash.  Now, if the C's were also throwing in 2 future #1's, and Glen Davis, then you might have an argument.

[Greenbean]

To your Gasol point it just furthers my point. The point dlpin was making was that since the Gasol trade, teams are weary to give awway top teir talent for cap relief. Well that trade worked out well for Memphis. Not all of them do but that trade certainly didnt change the landscape of how rebuilding teams approach trading.

What I am saying is that they got significantly more than just cap relief.  They got 2 first rounders, a guy who was a mid first rounder the previous year, and a European player who was starting to break out a bit in Europe at the time of the trade.

So I don't think that is comparable to a team giving away a player like Kevin Martin just for the opportunity to open up some extra cash.  Now, if the C's were also throwing in 2 future #1's, and Glen Davis, then you might have an argument.

I was arguing the dlpin's point that the Memphis trade had any bearing on future trades. He was saying that teams would be weary after memphis handed them talent for nothing in return. I was saying they got alot in return so the Gasol deal had nothing to do with how teams think going forward. Memphis did get alot in return in hindsight I understand.

On to the point of the root argument: Is salary relief enough to snag Kevin Martin? Salary relief is at a higher than ever premium (much higher than in 08 when the Gasol trade went down)given two factors:

1. Economy
2. Monster FA class

If you have enough cap room you can either save money or turn your team around with a superstar and start capitalizing on winning.

[boscel33]

i wouldn't say he's the best option.  i heard the best option last night on the radio.  the caller thinks we should send ray allen to miami for d wade.

i did almost drive off the road!

[dlpin]

I was arguing the dlpin's point that the Memphis trade had any bearing on future trades. He was saying that teams would be weary after memphis handed them talent for nothing in return. I was saying they got alot in return so the Gasol deal had nothing to do with how teams think going forward. Memphis did get alot in return in hindsight I understand.

On to the point of the root argument: Is salary relief enough to snag Kevin Martin? Salary relief is at a higher than ever premium (much higher than in 08 when the Gasol trade went down)given two factors:

1. Economy
2. Monster FA class

If you have enough cap room you can either save money or turn your team around with a superstar and start capitalizing on winning.

That wasn't my point at all. I said that the Gasol trade has made FANS significantly overvalue cap relief as a reason to do a trade. To the point where now people think that proposals that are even more lopsided than that trade are realistic.

And it is true, just look at all the proposed trades, and then compare them to what is actually going on.

People here are expecting that Ray's expiring contract by itself is going to land us a very good young player. That doesn't happen like that. And the examples are obvious:

- The suns are desperate to dump salary, everyone knows that, everyone knows that they've been shopping Amare around for a while.  And still, as desperate as they are, they won't do a trade without getting a good young player in return.

- The heat has a huge expiring contract, and yet they will have to include one of their young players if they want to get anything done.

Why do people think that Ray's contract alone will land us a top young player when Miami and the Cavs also have huge contracts they can offer but other teams don't think is enough?

Again, if the cavs have to include Hickson, and if the heat have to include Beasley, to get other teams to seriously consider taking their expiring deals, why do people think that Ray's contract by itself will get us anything?

[Greenbean]

I was arguing the dlpin's point that the Memphis trade had any bearing on future trades. He was saying that teams would be weary after memphis handed them talent for nothing in return. I was saying they got alot in return so the Gasol deal had nothing to do with how teams think going forward. Memphis did get alot in return in hindsight I understand.

On to the point of the root argument: Is salary relief enough to snag Kevin Martin? Salary relief is at a higher than ever premium (much higher than in 08 when the Gasol trade went down)given two factors:

1. Economy
2. Monster FA class

If you have enough cap room you can either save money or turn your team around with a superstar and start capitalizing on winning.

That wasn't my point at all. I said that the Gasol trade has made FANS significantly overvalue cap relief as a reason to do a trade. To the point where now people think that proposals that are even more lopsided than that trade are realistic.

And it is true, just look at all the proposed trades, and then compare them to what is actually going on.

People here are expecting that Ray's expiring contract by itself is going to land us a very good young player. That doesn't happen like that. And the examples are obvious:

- The suns are desperate to dump salary, everyone knows that, everyone knows that they've been shopping Amare around for a while.  And still, as desperate as they are, they won't do a trade without getting a good young player in return.

- The heat has a huge expiring contract, and yet they will have to include one of their young players if they want to get anything done.

Why do people think that Ray's contract alone will land us a top young player when Miami and the Cavs also have huge contracts they can offer but other teams don't think is enough?

Again, if the cavs have to include Hickson, and if the heat have to include Beasley, to get other teams to seriously consider taking their expiring deals, why do people think that Ray's contract by itself will get us anything?

Got it now thanks for the clarification. I guess its a team by team basis. For a team like the knicks for example, they want nothing but salary relief because they have a shot at getting a super duper star this offseason. If it is a team like the kings, they have some young talent already so they probably would want a young player in return. I think BBD or a 1st round pick would be enough though. It's more like a sweetner than a major component of the trade.

To your point about the Suns. We dont really know what was discussed at all. They are holding out for the absolute best opportunity. If the rumors are true and Miami put forward a deal of Beasley plus cap relief for Amare. Why in gods name would the Suns not take that? Because he makes 5 mil a year and thats too expensive. I think they would rather take a guy like Hickson, a marginally less enticing prospect than Beasley, at a cheaper cost.

I will reserve judgement until 3:01 tomorrow on the Suns situation though.

Keep in mind, these teams want to trade dead salary. They will take the best offer that comes along. All I am saying is Ray may be the best offer that comes along for at least one of these teams.

[xmuscularghandix]

ray allen outplayed kevin martin in spades last night.. i don't see the hype..rays an old man.. looked fine..

Rays play is almost secondary, the whole point is that this is our only option to get a younger starting 2 guard.

[Who]

I don't think Ray Allen outplayed Martin.  But it was clear that Martin, while a gifted offensive player, is not up to snuff defensively.  He tried to fake it by flopping, but the refs weren't buying it.

Frankly, I'd rather have Hinrich, who is good at both ends of the floor and can play the point.

I think Martin would improve tremendously on the defensive end on a club like the Celtics. But I think that improvement would take time to happen. He'd need close to a full year.

So his improvement this season, by the playoffs, would be minimal. Next season? Yes, I think he can become a slightly above average defender by the time the playoffs roll around next year.

[dark_lord]

i dont want some1 injury prone.

martin games played:

04-05: 45
05-06: 72
06-07: 80
07-08: 61
08-09: 51
09-10: 21

[Larry for 3]

Replace Noccionni's contract with Kenny Thomas's ( trade still works ) (Ray for Martin & thomas)  and you've got a deal,  you never know