I don't like this quote

[Fafnir]

He can't finish.

Until he can finish, no more minutes. Tough to play a unathletic big who plays under the rim.

Hey, Ray can't make a three these days, but he still gets 40 minutes.

Ray getting 40 minutes is probably one of the reasons he's struggling somewhat.

My hope is that with Daniels coming back Ray can get back down to 35 minutes a game.

He's playing 36 now.  There is no magic pill for being done.

I'd like to see him playing 26.  (But I'd still like to see him taking the last shot.)

Do you think Ray can be talked into playing just 26 min or a 6th man role because if so I agree.  I also have no problem with him taking the last shot. 

Well, I don't see him liking it, but if Doc explains that it's for the good of the team, Ray has no choice but to go along with it.  Playing time is Doc's decision.  (However, I don't see Doc doing it.  He may be a good preacher, teacher, communicator and motivator, but I don't see him as a shaker-upper.  And that's what we need right now.)

We don't have options that are good enough to mandate cutting Ray's minutes down below 30.

Our only shooter off the bench to space the floor is Eddie, and he's a worse defender than Ray.

[looseball]

He can't finish.

Until he can finish, no more minutes. Tough to play a unathletic big who plays under the rim.

Hey, Ray can't make a three these days, but he still gets 40 minutes.

Ray getting 40 minutes is probably one of the reasons he's struggling somewhat.

My hope is that with Daniels coming back Ray can get back down to 35 minutes a game.

He's playing 36 now.  There is no magic pill for being done.

I'd like to see him playing 26.  (But I'd still like to see him taking the last shot.)

Do you think Ray can be talked into playing just 26 min or a 6th man role because if so I agree.  I also have no problem with him taking the last shot. 

Well, I don't see him liking it, but if Doc explains that it's for the good of the team, Ray has no choice but to go along with it.  Playing time is Doc's decision.  (However, I don't see Doc doing it.  He may be a good preacher, teacher, communicator and motivator, but I don't see him as a shaker-upper.  And that's what we need right now.)

We don't have options that are good enough to mandate cutting Ray's minutes down below 30.

Our only shooter off the bench to space the floor is Eddie, and he's a worse defender than Ray.

We do have options: TA and Marquis.  Then Ray makes a better option coming off the bench than Eddie House.

[Fafnir]

He can't finish.

Until he can finish, no more minutes. Tough to play a unathletic big who plays under the rim.

Hey, Ray can't make a three these days, but he still gets 40 minutes.

Ray getting 40 minutes is probably one of the reasons he's struggling somewhat.

My hope is that with Daniels coming back Ray can get back down to 35 minutes a game.

He's playing 36 now.  There is no magic pill for being done.

I'd like to see him playing 26.  (But I'd still like to see him taking the last shot.)

Do you think Ray can be talked into playing just 26 min or a 6th man role because if so I agree.  I also have no problem with him taking the last shot. 

Well, I don't see him liking it, but if Doc explains that it's for the good of the team, Ray has no choice but to go along with it.  Playing time is Doc's decision.  (However, I don't see Doc doing it.  He may be a good preacher, teacher, communicator and motivator, but I don't see him as a shaker-upper.  And that's what we need right now.)

We don't have options that are good enough to mandate cutting Ray's minutes down below 30.

Our only shooter off the bench to space the floor is Eddie, and he's a worse defender than Ray.

We do have options: TA and Marquis.  Then Ray makes a better option coming off the bench than Eddie House.

Neither can shoot, both are negatives on the offensive end overall.

[looseball]

He can't finish.

Until he can finish, no more minutes. Tough to play a unathletic big who plays under the rim.

Hey, Ray can't make a three these days, but he still gets 40 minutes.

Ray getting 40 minutes is probably one of the reasons he's struggling somewhat.

My hope is that with Daniels coming back Ray can get back down to 35 minutes a game.

He's playing 36 now.  There is no magic pill for being done.

I'd like to see him playing 26.  (But I'd still like to see him taking the last shot.)

Do you think Ray can be talked into playing just 26 min or a 6th man role because if so I agree.  I also have no problem with him taking the last shot. 

Well, I don't see him liking it, but if Doc explains that it's for the good of the team, Ray has no choice but to go along with it.  Playing time is Doc's decision.  (However, I don't see Doc doing it.  He may be a good preacher, teacher, communicator and motivator, but I don't see him as a shaker-upper.  And that's what we need right now.)

We don't have options that are good enough to mandate cutting Ray's minutes down below 30.

Our only shooter off the bench to space the floor is Eddie, and he's a worse defender than Ray.

We do have options: TA and Marquis.  Then Ray makes a better option coming off the bench than Eddie House.

Neither can shoot, both are negatives on the offensive end overall.

Negatives?  Negatives??

[Birdbrain]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.  Tony as well but, since his scoring will be lower it will be hard to tell through stats that he also a net positive.  Ray off the bench would be sweet going against 2nd teamers.

[jdpapa3]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

[celticinorlando]

ray allen is tired

[Fafnir]

Marquis is a slight negative on the offensive end, and a slight plus on the defensive side of the ball. Though if he gets a smaller PG or SG on him he's got a very nice post game.

Tony is a bigger negative on the offensive end, and a bigger plus on the defensive end.

Neither is as good as Ray Allen overall. Even worse, neither can shoot from further than 12 feet reliably. So they can't fufill Ray Allen's role in the plays, Eddie has to do that. (or Sheed lol)

[Birdbrain]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

Which stats specifically lol?

[Birdbrain]

Marquis is a slight negative on the offensive end, and a slight plus on the defensive side of the ball. Though if he gets a smaller PG or SG on him he's got a very nice post game.

Tony is a bigger negative on the offensive end, and a bigger plus on the defensive end.

Neither is as good as Ray Allen overall. Even worse, neither can shoot from further than 12 feet reliably. So they can't fufill Ray Allen's role in the plays, Eddie has to do that. (or Sheed lol)

I thought this was just concerning Ray coming off the bench.  He can still hoist those 3's that you seem to love we'll just have less time of him fumbling around the court looking dumbfounded as to why he can't take 2 dribbles without falling down.

[jdpapa3]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

Which stats specifically lol?

Off/on court +/-.

I acknowledge that Daniels' numbers aren't enough to go off of because he doesn't have enough minutes this year, but I doubt he would come close to supplanting Ray, who is at the head of the class for the team. People tend to underestimate Ray's effect when he is not scoring, but he does draw attention.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

[Fafnir]

Marquis is a slight negative on the offensive end, and a slight plus on the defensive side of the ball. Though if he gets a smaller PG or SG on him he's got a very nice post game.

Tony is a bigger negative on the offensive end, and a bigger plus on the defensive end.

Neither is as good as Ray Allen overall. Even worse, neither can shoot from further than 12 feet reliably. So they can't fufill Ray Allen's role in the plays, Eddie has to do that. (or Sheed lol)

I thought this was just concerning Ray coming off the bench.

This is concerning Ray's minutes decreasing and how it will affect the team. The less he plays the more we'll struggle on the offensive side of the ball for stretches.

Our backups don't have the skillset to replace him in the starting lineup.

 He can still hoist those 3's that you seem to love we'll just have less time of him fumbling around the court looking dumbfounded as to why he can't take 2 dribbles without falling down.

Ray Allen turns it over less than both Marquis and Tony Allen. Both off the dribble and with his passes, if you're worried about turnovers cutting Ray's minutes isn't the solution.

As for your three point comment, having several quality three pointers is a key to having an efficient offense. Especially when you are already a turnover prone team like the Celtics.

[Birdbrain]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

Which stats specifically lol?

Off/on court +/-.

I acknowledge that Daniels' numbers aren't enough to go off of because he doesn't have enough minutes this year, but I doubt he would come close to supplanting Ray, who is at the head of the class for the team. People tend to underestimate Ray's effect when he is not scoring, but he does draw attention.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

+/- hmm... this is the stat that doesn't take into account who the player plays with during his time on the court, correct?  My rebuttal to this is he would be playing with slightly more talented group (1st team) and it may have a positive effect on his +/- stats.

[Fafnir]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

Which stats specifically lol?

Off/on court +/-.

I acknowledge that Daniels' numbers aren't enough to go off of because he doesn't have enough minutes this year, but I doubt he would come close to supplanting Ray, who is at the head of the class for the team. People tend to underestimate Ray's effect when he is not scoring, but he does draw attention.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

+/- hmm... this is the stat that doesn't take into account who the player plays with during his time on the court, correct?  My rebuttal to this is he would playing with slightly more talented group (1st team) and it may have a positive effect on his +/- stats.

Adjusted plus/minus says the same thing:
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=BOS

The sample size is small, but it confirms a lot of other stats and indicators.

(Actually I had Marquis flipped he's a slight positive on offense and negative on defense)

[Birdbrain]

Replacing Ray with Marquis (when healthy) is net positive.  For defense alone.

The stats strongly disagree with you.

Which stats specifically lol?

Off/on court +/-.

I acknowledge that Daniels' numbers aren't enough to go off of because he doesn't have enough minutes this year, but I doubt he would come close to supplanting Ray, who is at the head of the class for the team. People tend to underestimate Ray's effect when he is not scoring, but he does draw attention.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS.HTM

+/- hmm... this is the stat that doesn't take into account who the player plays with during his time on the court, correct?  My rebuttal to this is he would playing with slightly more talented group (1st team) and it may have a positive effect on his +/- stats.

Adjusted plus/minus says the same thing:
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=BOS

The sample size is small, but it confirms a lot of other stats and indicators.

(Actually I had Marquis flipped he's a slight positive on offense and negative on defense)

No one is negative on defense compared to Ray even House and I'll stick by the point that +/- will be increased with better players around them.