Tony Allen making a difference

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

I loved how he played last night.  His impact went beyond the meager stat line.  I like that he crashed the boards and didn't take any outside shots, as well as his defense.  But the aspect I like best is that his energy level is awesome.  It's nice to have some young, fresh athletic legs out there creating havoc.

The problem with Tony is that he's offensive one-dimensional, playing him at the 2 and Rondo at the 1 casuses issues.

Actually, TA's quite diversified on offense; he can create his own shot, finish at the rim, and score from the post.  What he can't do is shot consistently from range, especially the 3 point line.  If you want the definition of one-dimensional, he wears #50.

The myth that you can't play a non-shooter with Rondo has yet to proven.  If anything, playing him with a non-shooter will force Rondo to take on more of a scoring role, something that he should be doing anyway, since he's one of our most explosive and efficient scorers. 

I don't know why Rondo couldn't average 3-5 more points a game if more of the scoring burden was placed on his shoulders (and do so without sacrificing offensive efficiency).  We should be exploring ways to get more out of Rondo, since after all he's our best player. 

There are no issues, per se, with TA starting.  He's an NBA caliber starter.  The issue would be altering the offense/defense to account for Tony's presence. 

[EJPLAYA]

I loved how he played last night.  His impact went beyond the meager stat line.  I like that he crashed the boards and didn't take any outside shots, as well as his defense.  But the aspect I like best is that his energy level is awesome.  It's nice to have some young, fresh athletic legs out there creating havoc.

The problem with Tony is that he's offensive one-dimensional, playing him at the 2 and Rondo at the 1 casuses issues.

Actually, TA's quite diversified on offense; he can create his own shot, finish at the rim, and score from the post.  What he can't do is shot consistently from range, especially the 3 point line.  If you want the definition of one-dimensional, he wears #50.

The myth that you can't play a non-shooter with Rondo has yet to proven.  If anything, playing him with a non-shooter will force Rondo to take on more of a scoring role, something that he should be doing anyway, since he's one of our most explosive and efficient scorers. 

I don't know why Rondo couldn't average 3-5 more points a game if more of the scoring burden was placed on his shoulders (and do so without sacrificing offensive efficiency).  We should be exploring ways to get more out of Rondo, since after all he's our best player. 

There are no issues, per se, with TA starting.  He's an NBA caliber starter.  The issue would be altering the offense/defense to account for Tony's presence. 

TA has been a much better player this year than I ever considered, however this is over the top. TA is at best a solid 6th man. The only teams he would start on are lottery teams with no other options.

Don't get me wrong. I was wrong about TA's production this year and am glad. I have been impressed with his reduction in dumb decisions and making better decisions to stay in the offensive flow of the team. He isn't lowering his head as much the second he touches the ball and driving out of control. He still makes a lot of dumb mistakes and always will (like the first play of the game last night) but i have been impressed so far. He isn't going to get any better than this though. He's just too set in his ways.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Actually, TA's quite diversified on offense; he can create his own shot, finish at the rim, and score from the post.  What he can't do is shot consistently from range, especially the 3 point line.  If you want the definition of one-dimensional, he wears #50.

The myth that you can't play a non-shooter with Rondo has yet to proven.  If anything, playing him with a non-shooter will force Rondo to take on more of a scoring role, something that he should be doing anyway, since he's one of our most explosive and efficient scorers. 

I don't know why Rondo couldn't average 3-5 more points a game if more of the scoring burden was placed on his shoulders (and do so without sacrificing offensive efficiency).  We should be exploring ways to get more out of Rondo, since after all he's our best player. 

There are no issues, per se, with TA starting.  He's an NBA caliber starter.  The issue would be altering the offense/defense to account for Tony's presence. 

TA has been a much better player this year than I ever considered, however this is over the top. TA is at best a solid 6th man. The only teams he would start on are lottery teams with no other options.

The Spurs (among other teams) have a long history of starting defensively minded shooting guards with limited offensive games, guys like Udoka or Bogans or Bowen.  TA could easily play that kind of role on any playoff or championship caliber team. 

In fact, putting TA into that kind of role on this team might be exactly the kind of thing we NEED to do; something that could improve our perimeter defense and scoring off the bench while at the same time help get Ray some rest.  Doc, however, has said that he likes Tony's energy off the bench more than in the starting lineup.

[Fafnir]

Actually, TA's quite diversified on offense; he can create his own shot, finish at the rim, and score from the post.  What he can't do is shot consistently from range, especially the 3 point line.  If you want the definition of one-dimensional, he wears #50.

I didn't mention House, did I?

Tony is one dimensional he can drive, that's about it. If he's playing PG or against a small 2 he can post up some, but that's all the variety to his game.

The problem isn't Rondo and Tony, its having only two shooters on the court. So if we play those two we can't really play Perkins or another non-shooter.

You mention the Spurs starting a defensive 2 or 3 instead of another player. Those players could all hit a 3 point shot.

[BballTim]

Tony is NOT a starter on a good team. 

  Not saying I want Tony starting, but there were tons of posts saying the same thing about Rondo and Perk 2-3 years ago.

2-3 years ago Rondo was 20-21 years old, Perkins was 22-23 years old. Tony Allen right now is 28. The idea that he will develop into a starter now just like Rondo and Perkins have over the past few years has no basis on reality.

  I'm talking about going into the 07-08 season.

[dlpin]

Tony is NOT a starter on a good team. 

  Not saying I want Tony starting, but there were tons of posts saying the same thing about Rondo and Perk 2-3 years ago.

2-3 years ago Rondo was 20-21 years old, Perkins was 22-23 years old. Tony Allen right now is 28. The idea that he will develop into a starter now just like Rondo and Perkins have over the past few years has no basis on reality.

  I'm talking about going into the 07-08 season.

Doesn't matter. You can't compare what people said about 20 to 23 year old players and what people are saying about 28 year old players. Sure, people said that neither perkins nor rondo would start in a good team, but then they developed, like most young players do. You can't tell me that you expect the same development out of Allen the next 2 or 3 years that we had with Rondo and Perkins.

Allen is good, but he would not start in any of this year's contenders.

[Tr1boy]

I disagree with most of you guys that Tony Allen can't start and be an effective starter. The guy if you really watch closely makes bonehead moves when he plays sparingly and has to do a big job all of a sudden. When he gets his playing time he screws up alot less and actually becomes more energized as everyone gets tired. Leon Powe was that way and few guys are like that in the NBA period.

His offensive stats is mediocre in general but he gives you so much with his defensive play that he can change the outcome of the game. Pierce used to be that way with the ability to take over the 4th but he can't do it no more.

I bet anybody here that if paul pierce was injured for the rest of the year or ray allen got traded and allen played majority of mins our team win and totals would be better than if we kept a starting lineup of kg, perk, pp, RA, Rondo.

[BASS_THUMPER]

with a healthy team he plays no minutes and all of a sudden he is asked to step in and take a leader role...

takes time to get with the program.....

[Fafnir]

I disagree with most of you guys that Tony Allen can't start and be an effective starter. The guy if you really watch closely makes bonehead moves when he plays sparingly and has to do a big job all of a sudden. When he gets his playing time he screws up alot less and actually becomes more energized as everyone gets tired. Leon Powe was that way and few guys are like that in the NBA period.

His offensive stats is mediocre in general but he gives you so much with his defensive play that he can change the outcome of the game. Pierce used to be that way with the ability to take over the 4th but he can't do it no more.

I bet anybody here that if paul pierce was injured for the rest of the year or ray allen got traded and allen played majority of mins our team win and totals would be better than if we kept a starting lineup of kg, perk, pp, RA, Rondo.

You underestimate just how bad Tony Allen is for the team's offense. Take a look:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=BOS

Tony is a -5.40 on offense and a -2.21 on defense, so net he's a minus to the team when he's out there. (negative numbers are good on defense in this measure)

Pierce is a +4.45 on offense and a -.38 on defense. Basically he doesn't help or hurt are defense on average.

[guava_wrench]

I disagree with most of you guys that Tony Allen can't start and be an effective starter. The guy if you really watch closely makes bonehead moves when he plays sparingly and has to do a big job all of a sudden. When he gets his playing time he screws up alot less and actually becomes more energized as everyone gets tired. Leon Powe was that way and few guys are like that in the NBA period.

His offensive stats is mediocre in general but he gives you so much with his defensive play that he can change the outcome of the game. Pierce used to be that way with the ability to take over the 4th but he can't do it no more.

I bet anybody here that if paul pierce was injured for the rest of the year or ray allen got traded and allen played majority of mins our team win and totals would be better than if we kept a starting lineup of kg, perk, pp, RA, Rondo.

You underestimate just how bad Tony Allen is for the team's offense. Take a look:

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2009-2010&team=BOS

Tony is a -5.40 on offense and a -2.21 on defense, so net he's a minus to the team when he's out there. (negative numbers are good on defense in this measure)

Pierce is a +4.45 on offense and a -.38 on defense. Basically he doesn't help or hurt are defense on average.

TA's net rating is better than any other bench player in the rotation. Only Shelden and Daniels have better from the bench.

It is the entire bench that seems to be a minus, but TA less so than House, Sheed, BBD and Scal.

Be careful about cherry picking stats.

[dasandruler]

I loved how he played last night.  His impact went beyond the meager stat line.  I like that he crashed the boards and didn't take any outside shots, as well as his defense.  But the aspect I like best is that his energy level is awesome.  It's nice to have some young, fresh athletic legs out there creating havoc.

The problem with Tony is that he's offensive one-dimensional, playing him at the 2 and Rondo at the 1 casuses issues.

Actually, TA's quite diversified on offense; he can create his own shot, finish at the rim, and score from the post.  What he can't do is shot consistently from range, especially the 3 point line.  If you want the definition of one-dimensional, he wears #50.

The myth that you can't play a non-shooter with Rondo has yet to proven.  If anything, playing him with a non-shooter will force Rondo to take on more of a scoring role, something that he should be doing anyway, since he's one of our most explosive and efficient scorers. 

I don't know why Rondo couldn't average 3-5 more points a game if more of the scoring burden was placed on his shoulders (and do so without sacrificing offensive efficiency).  We should be exploring ways to get more out of Rondo, since after all he's our best player. 

There are no issues, per se, with TA starting.  He's an NBA caliber starter.  The issue would be altering the offense/defense to account for Tony's presence. 

More Rondo, More good tony--- Tony can create his own shot, tony takes it to the rim, tony is a hawk on D, and he's judicious with the jay: they must be brothers.. I'll take more of that, any day of the week.  Maybe the rest of the team'll get on board and maximize efficiency for this champ run.

[Fafnir]

Be careful about cherry picking stats.

You should be careful about throwing out an accusation like that. I wasn't comparing Tony Allen to the rest of the bench. I was comparing him to Paul Pierce, hence why I only mentioned Tony and Paul in my post!

Specifically I was using those stats to refute this ridiculous statement:

I bet anybody here that if paul pierce was injured for the rest of the year or ray allen got traded and allen played majority of mins our team win and totals would be better than if we kept a starting lineup of kg, perk, pp, RA, Rondo.

The team  would become a lot worse if Tony Allen had to replace Ray Allen or Paul Pierce for 30 minutes a game .

[Spilling Green Dye]

Do Tony's stats factor in that a decent amount of his playing time has been alongside our terrible bench?

Tony didn't guard Wade the entire night, and as I recall Ray got scored on a few times by Wade.  Like some have mentioned, Wade nearly put up that stat line by halftime against Ray Allen the last time we played the Heat. 

Trading Pierce to get Tony more time is laughable, I agree.  But, I have posted before that I liked what I saw of the KG/Sheed/Ray/Tony/Rondo lineup.

[Fafnir]

Do Tony's stats factor in that a decent amount of his playing time has been alongside our terrible bench?

Yes the website I cited adjusts for the quality of your teammates. Adjusted +/- is still a very noisy measure though, so you really can't rely on it without tons, I mean years, worth of data.

But its a helpful tool, and confirms what your naked eye tells you about Tony. He hurts the team offensively with his lack of shooting and turnovers and helps the team by being a better athlete and defender at the 2/3.

[BballTim]

Tony is NOT a starter on a good team. 

  Not saying I want Tony starting, but there were tons of posts saying the same thing about Rondo and Perk 2-3 years ago.

2-3 years ago Rondo was 20-21 years old, Perkins was 22-23 years old. Tony Allen right now is 28. The idea that he will develop into a starter now just like Rondo and Perkins have over the past few years has no basis on reality.

  I'm talking about going into the 07-08 season.

Doesn't matter. You can't compare what people said about 20 to 23 year old players and what people are saying about 28 year old players. Sure, people said that neither perkins nor rondo would start in a good team, but then they developed, like most young players do. You can't tell me that you expect the same development out of Allen the next 2 or 3 years that we had with Rondo and Perkins.

Allen is good, but he would not start in any of this year's contenders.

  Not sure why it doesn't matter if people say Rondo and Perk aren't good enough to start on a contending team and they win the title that year.