How About More Tony and Less Ray?

[moiso]

I agree with Bankshot.  No need to play Ray so much, especially when he's not making that big of a difference in the results.  Tony adds a lot of energy and makes things happen defensively.  Ray looks like he's been coasting a bit to conserve energy.  We also know Tony plays a lot better with more minutes.  I'm not totally opposed to giving Ray a look as a scorer off the bench, either.  Nothing has to be permanent, but it's worth a look for the time being.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[EJPLAYA]

How about more Marquis when he is healthy and less Ray to give his aged body some rest. That I do. TA, not so much...

Why does everyone love Daniels? TA has outplayed him thus far this year. Daniels did practically nothing while he was healthy.

Daniels doesn't make stupid mistakes every other trip down the floor that results in a bad shot or a turnover. Daniels can create his own shot down on the block and defenders have to respect his mid range shot in addition to drives to the rim. Daniels plays solid team defense. In a nutshell Daniels plays smart basketball within himself and makes that second unit better. TA plays out of control on offense and is only a decent scorer if someone else sets him up. He needs someone to get him the ball on his way to the basket to be semi effective. He isn't really a better defender than Daniels is, so how is this even a debate?!

[Roy Hobbs]

Our four best lineups, in terms of +/-, feature one player in common:  Ray Allen.  Not Rondo, not Pierce or KG.  Ray Allen.

[papa shuttlesworth]

I always have thought that Ray's impact on the game goes beyond his scoring, as shown in the +/- numbers.  He needs to be guarded at all times, which opens up the whole offense.

But I agree that he hasn't been playing well lately.

I'm also very happy with Tony's play this year.  I think he is playing some of the best basketball of his career.  He is not just avoiding bad decisions (which is all I used to hope for), he is actually making good decisions.

So while I don't think Tony should play that much more or Ray that much less, it is nice to know that should Doc go to the bench, I won't cringe the whole time.

[papa shuttlesworth]

I should add that every time I have praised Tony this year about his improved playing, he makes a boneheaded play immediately afterward.

So I apologize in advance.

[Chris]

Our four best lineups, in terms of +/-, feature one player in common:  Ray Allen.  Not Rondo, not Pierce or KG.  Ray Allen.

And it makes perfect sense.  He opens up the offense for everyone else with his movement, and while he may not be a great one on one defender, he doesn't make the mental mistakes that some other guys seem to constantly make on defense. 

[KungPoweChicken]

Our four best lineups, in terms of +/-, feature one player in common:  Ray Allen.  Not Rondo, not Pierce or KG.  Ray Allen.


quote




That is a terribly misleading statistic, if you are getting it from 82games.

[Tai]

Our four best lineups, in terms of +/-, feature one player in common:  Ray Allen.  Not Rondo, not Pierce or KG.  Ray Allen.

That is a terribly misleading statistic, if you are getting it from 82games.

Elaborate.

[ScoobyDoo]

An argument could be made that Ray has in fact played the best of any of the big three so far this year. Strangely, though is is also the oldest, he appears to be by far the healthiest as well.

An argument could also be made that this is all the more reason to play him less. Doc just simply grinds Ray into the ground. The way to keep Ray playing well is not to play him 40 a night "GLENN DOC RIVERS!!!!"

I'd rather see Jerry Sichting playing off guard for us more during this season if it meant Ray were strong, rested and healthy come the playoffs.

Therefore, as a hard fast rule, play Tony more or Giddens, I don't care. Just stop playing Ray like a drum.

Has it occurred to Doc or anyone else that maybe Ray's D is suffering because he's playign heavy minutes 14 years inot a heavy minute career and he's chasing a bunch of 20 year olds around? Maybe he saves it for what he does best, shooting?

And you know if Doc's the type who asks "are you good?". KG, Pierce and Ray are always going to say "I'm good" even if they're on minute 47 of a 48 minute game.

That's where "coaching" comes in. It's called management.  

[jadams5214]

The reasons for Ray Allen's struggles this year are hard to pinpoint.

Yes he is a veteran player logging lots of minutes.  He often has to defend elite 2 guards which must take away from his offensive effectiveness.

But he actually looks healthy and quick this year.  He has made slashing drives to the hoop more often this year than I can remember in past years.  Part of that though is his outside shot really has disappeared.  He is shooting a career low in 3 point percentage.  He rarely has two good shooting games in a row now.  And part of the reason he is driving so much is that he has lost some confidence in his shot.  Several times recently he has passed up an open jumper to drive closer to the hoop.  That can be a good play of course, but it further illustrates his shooting woes as well.

Not having Ray in the starting lineup would allow defenses to clamp down even more, as the C's would be losing an outside threat. 

I would be more apt to go with what a few others have suggested --- start the bench in the 3rd quarter for the first 5 minutes for example and see what happens.  It would send a strong message to the starters about coming about with no intensity after halftime.  And judging by recent results it really couldn't go any worse than having the starters out there to begin the second half...

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Two thoughts:

1. If there's going to be a change to the starting lineup, Ray Allen's the most likely to go to the bench.  Not advocating for it right now, but it's the next logical move if we continue to underperform.  We could definitely use the tough defense and transition buckets that TA could provide if he was paired with Rondo to start the game.  And Ray could definitely anchor that 2nd unit.  In addition to the defensive improvement to start the game, starting TA could limit Ray's minutes (which might help him pull out of his current funk), provide the energy we currently lack, and get more out of TA, while boosting bench scoring.  It sounds like a win-win.

2. That said, it's more of a More Tony, Less Eddie issue right now.  The 2nd unit, as currently constituted, is severely handicapped on both sides of the ball by House's presence--we can't get good shots, and we can't defend the perimeter.  What's worse, the entire offense--if you want to call it an offense--gets hijacked at times by Doc's zealous attempts to get House going.  How many more double and triple screens are we going to run for this guy?  How many more inside looks will we eschew to bet the farm on one more House 3?  I mean, House can be deadly for 3, but he's deadliest in transition and when the ball starts inside and the defense collapses.  Yet, we continue to chuck the offense and the ball movement just to see if Ed is hot.  And he's not and hasn't been so all season.  I'd like to see us limit House's minutes, while increasing those of TA and Walker (until Daniels returns).

[wdleehi]

Two thoughts:

1. If there's going to be a change to the starting lineup, Ray Allen's the most likely to go to the bench.  Not advocating for it right now, but it's the next logical move if we continue to underperform.  We could definitely use the tough defense and transition buckets that TA could provide if he was paired with Rondo to start the game.  And Ray could definitely anchor that 2nd unit.  In addition to the defensive improvement to start the game, starting TA could limit Ray's minutes (which might help him pull out of his current funk), provide the energy we currently lack, and get more out of TA, while boosting bench scoring.  It sounds like a win-win.

2. That said, it's more of a More Tony, Less Eddie issue right now.  The 2nd unit, as currently constituted, is severely handicapped on both sides of the ball by House's presence--we can't get good shots, and we can't defend the perimeter.  What's worse, the entire offense--if you want to call it an offense--gets hijacked at times by Doc's zealous attempts to get House going.  How many more double and triple screens are we going to run for this guy?  How many more inside looks will we eschew to bet the farm on one more House 3?  I mean, House can be deadly for 3, but he's deadliest in transition and when the ball starts inside and the defense collapses.  Yet, we continue to chuck the offense and the ball movement just to see if Ed is hot.  And he's not and hasn't been so all season.  I'd like to see us limit House's minutes, while increasing those of TA and Walker (until Daniels returns).

1) Wallace is the first one to go to the bench

2) House is limited by the lack of a 2nd PG.  Much like the rest of the team when Rondo is out.

[Junkyard Dawg]

I just made almost this same argument last night, and got about 3 responses 

I don't know what you do, but our bench is sorely lacking energy, offense, etc., and its affecting our starters.

Maybe I'm over-estimating the value of a 6th man, I just think ray would be that perfect guy to come off the bench and give us a shot in the arm.. don't need to make it permanent, but I think Doc should think about it while we've been struggling.

[BballTim]

No.



Ray is just the better player.

I know that.  I'm not talking about benching Ray or playing Tony more minutes than Ray.  I'm just saying that Ray needs to play less minutes.  Give those extra minutes to Tony.  If Ray is playing 35 minutes, maybe he should be playing 30, that's all I'm saying.

The title and post just reads as playing TA more then Ray.

  I didn't read the title that way, but that's neither here nor there.

  I thought we could have used more of Tony and less of Ray in the Hawks game after Johnson heated up but it's possible that he'd have gotten just as many points against Tony.

[moiso]

34 year old shooting guards should simply not play as much as Ray plays day in and day out through the regular season.  Im pretty sure the minutes are affecting his legs and energy that is available to spend at the defensive end.