Has the Cs championship window already closed?

[vinnie]

To me, the only reason the window is open a crack is because there is no dominant team in the east. I also agree with Brick that regardless of who gets through the east, the Lakers will win the championship.

The window is only open a crack for the Celtics for the following reasons:

-- injuries, injuries, injuires, which is what happens when you have a very old team. hard to keep guys healthy.

-- Ray Allen seems to have lost something. His shooting is down, his defense is worse than ever. I love Ray, but he is not the same Ray of two years ago or even last year.

-- Eddie House can't shoot anymore. Oh ya, on occasion he will have a good night, but is becoming the rare occasion.

-- Other than Sheed, there is no offense off the bench. If you are going to depend on Eddie, Marquis, TA and Glen Davis to get you points, then you have some problems. When Eddie could shoot it was a different story, but right now he is really bad. And, this team really does need a "real" backup point guard and a wing who can guard and score.

-- Rondo. I now officially love Rondo, but he seems to be in another one of those, "play one game and take a game or two off" funks. He was awful in the second half last night after having a goood first half. At times he looked like he did not want to be on the floor. For all the Garnett injury talk, this team goes as Rondo goes.

[ScoobyDoo]

Or does it go and KG goes. Rondo's attitude and fire ebbed and flowed last year with the presence or lack of presence of KG. It's almost like KG helps keep Rondo in  Rondo's "good place".

But KG impacts the entire team that way.

That's why he's KG.

[Drucci]

To me, the only reason the window is open a crack is because there is no dominant team in the east. I also agree with Brick that regardless of who gets through the east, the Lakers will win the championship.

So, you're assuming the Lakers will have an automatic ticket to the Finals? The West is tougher than last year in case you didn't notice and the Lakers are nowhere near invulnerable, in the West and in the Finals (if they get there).

The window is only open a crack for the Celtics for the following reasons:

-- injuries, injuries, injuires, which is what happens when you have a very old team. hard to keep guys healthy.

Can't disagree with you on that but I hope and think we will be fine. The fact that we got hurt early in the season and until now makes me think that karma will let us in peace after the All-Star Break. But we will see what happens, of course.

-- Ray Allen seems to have lost something. His shooting is down, his defense is worse than ever. I love Ray, but he is not the same Ray of two years ago or even last year.

It's funny how Ray gets blamed for everything every year and yet people state that he is worse from year to year. And people can't understand or realize that Ray was having the best statistical season of his career last season, at age 33. It's hard to match these stats when you're one year older. He will probably never get back to these stats since he gets older ; you can't expect Pierce to shoot so well from three next year like he does this season too.

Ray is shooting 47% from the field this year (48% last year) and 35% from three (40% last year). Sure, he has made less threes and missed more but did you notice that he takes many more midrange shots than 3's this year? It partially explains the dropoff, he is focusing on his midrange game and not solely on his three point range, and that's a good thing.

Ray is less effective defensively, I agree on that, but he is not that bad and he does a pretty good job on spurts against good to great players like Wade or Joe Johnson.

I would be glad if Danny traded our expirings scrubs for a good wing/guard defender, though.

-- Eddie House can't shoot anymore. Oh ya, on occasion he will have a good night, but is becoming the rare occasion.

Like Ray, Eddie was having a career season last year, shooting 44% from three (a franchise record). Did you expect him to shoot this good all year long this season?

Eddie is 37% from three, which is still very good. He has struggled with his shot because of Marquis' absence. Wait until Marquis comes back and you will see Eddie get on fire again because he will benefit from much easier looks.

-- Other than Sheed, there is no offense off the bench. If you are going to depend on Eddie, Marquis, TA and Glen Davis to get you points, then you have some problems. When Eddie could shoot it was a different story, but right now he is really bad. And, this team really does need a "real" backup point guard and a wing who can guard and score.

Marquis, Sheed and Glen are three players that can create their own shot and get buckets by themselves. Combine them all together, add Eddie and TA, and you have a pretty good second unit, who can defend and score. Once again, the absence of Marquis is really the cause of all these struggles, plus the fact that Sheed has been playing as a starter for the last weeks, weakening even more our current bench. But when healthy it's a good 2nd unit, especially if you put Paul or Ray in place of TA. No worries for the offensive production.

-- Rondo. I now officially love Rondo, but he seems to be in another one of those, "play one game and take a game or two off" funks. He was awful in the second half last night after having a goood first half. At times he looked like he did not want to be on the floor. For all the Garnett injury talk, this team goes as Rondo goes.

Agreed on that hone. Rondo took the second half off last night and it killed us.

[Tr1boy]

don't mean to be a downer but realistically we are done hoisting the trophy any time soon.

main reason

- Kg, PP keep getting hurt. What honestly are the chances during the playoffs which is 20 + games to play that one of them won't get injured again??

Two solutions exist which is once we get all the stars back to play them less and let the bench play a little (which doc still isn't doing) and another would be to trade pierce (i prefer than ray allen) for a young upcoming player. Somebody will see a value in him

Two teams that would take pierce imo would be either La clippers (ties with baron davis and they haven't made the playoffs in a while) or two sacramento which is a team in the same boat as the clips. Pierce value is that he is still a good sf and has championship experience under his belt. He would prob be ok also to be traded to one of these teams near his hometown.

The fairytale story is running out and we need to trade either pierce or kg as both will never be 100 percent healthy again

[ssspence]

So, it's all going to get magically better, right?  Garnett will come back 100% and the other old veterans will forego their third quarter naps and actually play some defense. They'll even make some free throws.  LOL.

I don't believe in miracles or fantasies. What you see is what you are going to get.

 

Thanks for revealing us that January games are signs of things to come in the playoffs. I thought it was quite the opposite but obviously you must be right since you know so much about the game.

Why shouldn't they be? The Cs have lost 8 of 15. The assumption that the Cs will get healthier, more athletic and more energetic over and after 82 games is a bit disturbing.

  If you're going to talk about 82 games shouldn't you mention that we're 27-12 and have the third best record in the league? The 7-8 stretch is real, and so are the injuries. But so was the 20-4 before that.

Absolutely -- it actually furthers my point.

Old, shallow team lies to itself about the need for more depth. A lot of talk about limiting minutes and pacing themselves is just that: talk.

They start well and everyone talks about how good they are. Then around Christmas things start getting loose. Guys get tired, injuries begin to mount and they fade progressively throughout the year due to failure to address that depth.
 
Sound familiar?

  Not really. And how many teams have benches that are significantly better than Sheed/Davis/Daniels/TA/House?

In a fantasy league, that's a pretty good bench -- though there's not a guy you can go to when you absolutely need a bucket or a foul.

But I thought we were talking about reality.

  If you think that you're increasing your credibility with your fantasy/reality talk you're sadly mistaken. But if it makes you feel better I'll rephrase the question so you can understand it better.

  In the real world, which teams have benches that are significantly better than Sheed/Davis/Daniels/TA/House?

I'm interested in gaining insight, not credibility. That's why I pointed out that you're talking about a group of bench players that have never played together. Ever. They've all missed time, and a number of them have missed large portions of their season.

If you wish to assume the best about injuries -- not to mentioned 'Sheed's looming tech situation -- come playoff time, that's your choice. I prefer to hope for that, but prepare for the worst.

Meanwhile, I'd prefer you not bother with comments like "so you can understand it better." This isn't a sandbox.

[dlpin]

So, it's all going to get magically better, right?  Garnett will come back 100% and the other old veterans will forego their third quarter naps and actually play some defense. They'll even make some free throws.  LOL.

I don't believe in miracles or fantasies. What you see is what you are going to get.

 

Thanks for revealing us that January games are signs of things to come in the playoffs. I thought it was quite the opposite but obviously you must be right since you know so much about the game.

Why shouldn't they be? The Cs have lost 8 of 15. The assumption that the Cs will get healthier, more athletic and more energetic over and after 82 games is a bit disturbing.

  If you're going to talk about 82 games shouldn't you mention that we're 27-12 and have the third best record in the league? The 7-8 stretch is real, and so are the injuries. But so was the 20-4 before that.

Absolutely -- it actually furthers my point.

Old, shallow team lies to itself about the need for more depth. A lot of talk about limiting minutes and pacing themselves is just that: talk.

They start well and everyone talks about how good they are. Then around Christmas things start getting loose. Guys get tired, injuries begin to mount and they fade progressively throughout the year due to failure to address that depth.
 
Sound familiar?

So familiar that I would put at least two of the top 3 teams in each conference in that category.

This is the point all the consistently negative people here don't seem to get: we are flawed, old, and injured, BUT SO ARE MOST OTHER CONTENDERS.

I was actually referring to last year's Celtics. Guess I needed to make that explicit.

What were you talking about condescension on the other thread?

By the way, yes, I got it that you were referring to last year's celtics. I guess I needed to make more explicit that I was also talking about how most of the other contenders also are in a similar situation to last year celtics.

Older team needs more depth and limiting minutes while in reality the stars play significant minutes while injured. It describes last year's celtics, this year's celtics, and, guess what, this year's lakers too...

[ssspence]

So, it's all going to get magically better, right?  Garnett will come back 100% and the other old veterans will forego their third quarter naps and actually play some defense. They'll even make some free throws.  LOL.

I don't believe in miracles or fantasies. What you see is what you are going to get.

 

Thanks for revealing us that January games are signs of things to come in the playoffs. I thought it was quite the opposite but obviously you must be right since you know so much about the game.

Why shouldn't they be? The Cs have lost 8 of 15. The assumption that the Cs will get healthier, more athletic and more energetic over and after 82 games is a bit disturbing.

  If you're going to talk about 82 games shouldn't you mention that we're 27-12 and have the third best record in the league? The 7-8 stretch is real, and so are the injuries. But so was the 20-4 before that.

Absolutely -- it actually furthers my point.

Old, shallow team lies to itself about the need for more depth. A lot of talk about limiting minutes and pacing themselves is just that: talk.

They start well and everyone talks about how good they are. Then around Christmas things start getting loose. Guys get tired, injuries begin to mount and they fade progressively throughout the year due to failure to address that depth.
 
Sound familiar?

  Not really. And how many teams have benches that are significantly better than Sheed/Davis/Daniels/TA/House?

In a fantasy league, that's a pretty good bench -- though there's not a guy you can go to when you absolutely need a bucket or a foul.

But I thought we were talking about reality.

Are you kidding? Sheed and Marquis are the players to go to when you need a crucial bucket or a foul because both can create their own shots and get fouls.

Your negativity is clearly affecting your judgment.

I just disagree. I really like both players at their best, but don't see either Daniels or Sheed as truly dependable at this point. I want insurance, and we have the ability to get it.

[BballTim]

-- Rondo. I now officially love Rondo, but he seems to be in another one of those, "play one game and take a game or two off" funks. He was awful in the second half last night after having a goood first half. At times he looked like he did not want to be on the floor. For all the Garnett injury talk, this team goes as Rondo goes.

  I don't know that there's a huge mystery there. As soon as I saw the way he landed on his hip, I said to my wife "he might be ok for the rest of the half, but he's not going to be able to do a lot after he sits for a while".

[Mencius]

I thought when we first got Kg and Ray that at most we had a 2 to 3 year window with Ray, KG, and Paul as centerpieces owing to their ages.  Nothing has changed my mind in the interim.  I think this year is our last as a true contender with those 3 as primary players.  They are at the stage of their careers where they will not be as good next year as they are this, and certainly not as good as when they first got here.

Danny is faced with the same choice that C's management was in the late 80's.  Stick with the tried and true but old and fading guys and try to squeeze another championship out of them (with chances decreasing each year), or trade them away as they become expiring contracts.  If Danny wants to keep all three of the Old 3 this year, and he wants to try to maximize our last best chance this year, he ought to trade in his expirings for more help.  Go for it all right now.  If it works, great, if not, chances will only decrease next year, at which point it'd be time to start thinking about trading bloated expirings, like Paul's next year, and KG and Sheed's the year after that.  Face it, if we can't win it this year, we won't win it next year.

If Danny can get a steal of a deal by trading Ray, I'm not against that either.  One thing's certain.  If Danny just let's these guys contracts expire without getting anything for them, we'll still not have cap space any time soon, and we'll become irrelevant again real soon.  The only way to stave that off is trading them off in the years they are expiring.  Sad, but true, and Danny knows this.

[Brickowski]

This team is playing lethargic basketball. Sure, they won a bunch of games earlier in the year, mostly against weak opponents, but they weren't playing playoff caliber basketball then, and they aren't playing it now.

  So when we were 20-4 and had, by a decent margin, the best differential in the league, when we won like 14 out of 15, we weren't playing playoff caliber basketball?

  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that recognizing playoff caliber basketball isn't your forte.

I've been watching playoff caliber basketball since Bill Russell.

This team isn't playing good basketball and the return of KG and Daniels isn't going to change that.  They're cutting too many corners and and doing (or not doing) the little things that let teams back in games.

You would think, for example, that this far into the season a playoff caliber team would not be:

1. missing 50% of its free throws (and below 50% if you disregard Ray Allen)

2. throwing passes into the crowd.

3. Shooting predominantly long twos-- the worst shot in basketball

4. failure to defend the 3 point line

5. Failure to rotate properly when other teams swing the ball

6. A totally stagnant offense when Rondo is off the floor, and sometimes even when he's on the floor.

7. Failing to box out

8. Failure to hustle for long rebounds

9. trying to make showboat passes instead of the sensible pass, causing multiple turnovers.

10. generally failing to protect the ball, and thowing away possessions with unforced errors.

And I've got more if you want to hear it.

[RAcker]

I can't help but feel that Danny and management have a grand plan for when to move major pieces to keep the train rolling.  We'll probably have a lot of freak out when it happens because it will seem drastic, but I do believe it will be following a plan and not just reacting to panic.

[dlpin]

To me, the only reason the window is open a crack is because there is no dominant team in the east. I also agree with Brick that regardless of who gets through the east, the Lakers will win the championship.

The window is only open a crack for the Celtics for the following reasons:

-- injuries, injuries, injuires, which is what happens when you have a very old team. hard to keep guys healthy.

-- Ray Allen seems to have lost something. His shooting is down, his defense is worse than ever. I love Ray, but he is not the same Ray of two years ago or even last year.

-- Eddie House can't shoot anymore. Oh ya, on occasion he will have a good night, but is becoming the rare occasion.

-- Other than Sheed, there is no offense off the bench. If you are going to depend on Eddie, Marquis, TA and Glen Davis to get you points, then you have some problems. When Eddie could shoot it was a different story, but right now he is really bad. And, this team really does need a "real" backup point guard and a wing who can guard and score.

-- Rondo. I now officially love Rondo, but he seems to be in another one of those, "play one game and take a game or two off" funks. He was awful in the second half last night after having a goood first half. At times he looked like he did not want to be on the floor. For all the Garnett injury talk, this team goes as Rondo goes.

Why are injuries and age things that rule as out as contenders but not the lakers?

The starting 5 for the lakers are on average older than our starting five, Gasol has missed more games to injury than KG, and Kobe, while younger than our big three, has played more minutes in his career than KG, and is playing with a broken finger and a bad back. Can anyone here remember any player over 30 that has successfully healed from a bad back while playing close to 40 minutes a game?

[RAcker]

This team is playing lethargic basketball. Sure, they won a bunch of games earlier in the year, mostly against weak opponents, but they weren't playing playoff caliber basketball then, and they aren't playing it now.

  So when we were 20-4 and had, by a decent margin, the best differential in the league, when we won like 14 out of 15, we weren't playing playoff caliber basketball?

  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that recognizing playoff caliber basketball isn't your forte.

I've been watching playoff caliber basketball since Bill Russell.

This team isn't playing good basketball and the return of KG and Daniels isn't going to change that.  They're cutting too many corners and and doing (or not doing) the little things that let teams back in games.

You would think, for example, that this far into the season a playoff caliber team would not be:

1. missing 50% of its free throws (and below 50% if you disregard Ray Allen)

2. throwing passes into the crowd.

3. Shooting predominantly long twos-- the worst shot in basketball

4. failure to defend the 3 point line

5. Failure to rotate properly when other teams swing the ball

6. A totally stagnant offense when Rondo is off the floor, and sometimes even when he's on the floor.

7. Failing to box out

8. Failure to hustle for long rebounds

9. trying to make showboat passes instead of the sensible pass, causing multiple turnovers.

10. generally failing to protect the ball, and thowing away possessions with unforced errors.

And I've got more if you want to hear it.

All things that I have noticed, Brick, and I agree that it is frustrating.

[BballTim]

  In the real world, which teams have benches that are significantly better than Sheed/Davis/Daniels/TA/House?

I'm interested in gaining insight, not credibility. That's why I pointed out that you're talking about a group of bench players that have never played together. Ever. They've all missed time, and a number of them have missed large portions of their season.

  Yes, just like 2 years ago we were talking about a team that had hardly played together. Ever. After you complained about the depth  on this team I asked you twice which teams have significantly better benches than us. You've avoided answering it twice. I guess I have my answer.

Meanwhile, I'd prefer you not bother with comments like "so you can understand it better." This isn't a sandbox.

  If you really preferred that you'd probably avoid comments like "But I thought we were talking about reality". This isn't a sandbox for you either.

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree Racker re Danny and a grand plan. He seems like he's always thinking two and three steps down the line, as he should/has to in his position.