The Sox are officially after Adrian Gonzalez

[Vermont Green]

Based on everything reported, I would say that Gonzalez was discussed by SD but never really available.  If they stink next year, maybe the Sox can do something at the deadline but for now, this is over and maybe never was anything more.

Depending on how healthy Wakefield is in July, maybe we offer Beltre, Buchholtz, and a good prospect.  Beltre has a pretty favorable contract.  This assumes that SD is tanking because I think if they are even reasonably good, there will be no deal.

Either way, we are going to be fine next year.  The Yankees have a better line-up but even adding AGon isn't going to change that.  The Yankees are very vulnerable to injury though, moreso than the Sox.

[yall hate]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

[winsomme]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.

[Roy Hobbs]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.

Out of curiosity, where would you draw the line on an offer?  You may have answered this, but how much is too much?

[winsomme]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.

Out of curiosity, where would you draw the line on an offer?  You may have answered this, but how much is too much?

i wouldn't do Bard in place of Kelly....which there have been some reports that that's what Hoyer was after...

[nickagneta]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

[winsomme]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

this works both ways, nick. what if Buch, Ells, and Kelly struggle this season and A-Gon continues to put up his big numbers? is it then too much to offer that package of guys...

the point is: there is a price to get A-Gon right now...that's why the discussions took place.

IMO Hoyer was looking for something along the lines of Buch, Ells, Kelly and Theo didn't want to go there....

[nickagneta]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

this works both ways, nick. what if Buch, Ells, and Kelly struggle this season and A-Gon continues to put up his big numbers? is it then too much to offer that package of guys...

the point is: there is a price to get A-Gon right now...that's why the discussions took place.

IMO Hoyer was looking for something along the lines of Buch, Ells, Kelly and Theo didn't want to go there....

And as I have said and Hoyer has said, Gonzalez, right now, can't be had for any price. Right now trading Gonzalez would be a before the season would be a career suicidal move for Hoyer. The trade can not and will not happen, regardless of price.

[guava_wrench]

Well, I think that is why you have to overpay to get the big bat. Buch, Ells, and Kelly is probably overpaying to get A-Gon, but these guys are the hardest to get in MLB right now...

that isnt probably overpaying, it is way way overpaying.  that trade would never ever happen. 

Well I would prefer Cabrera....I think we could get him for less because of his contract, but at this point I would be willing to pay that price for A-Gon because I think it is that important to get that big bat.

you think this is way overpaying, so can I assume that you concede that this package would get the deal done from SDs side of things?

what would also likely happen is that we would get another prospect in return that quite a bit lower on the charts than Kelly..

In terms of way overpaying, I don't agree. I think there are so few big time bats in the league, that that is price tag. ...especially for a guy making peanuts the next two seasons.

except you are giving up 5 (4?) cost controlled years of a pitcher who has ace potential (and is a 4 now for us, 3 for most teams), 4 (3?) cost controlled years of a hitter who can lead off, steal 60+ bases and play gold glove caliber defense, and a pitcher who has upside to the 2-3 range (has cost a lot to this point - his bonus, but still gives you cost controlled years in the future).  It is having players like that on the team that allows this team to throw big money at players...it is not only an unsound trade for the team and its future from a skill level, it makes close to zero financial sense.

as for whether SD would take it if it were offered, they should, but I am not sure they would. as mentioned countless times, they need to have a name their franchise can follow.  they have that.  same with the marlins and Hanley.

and that isnt the price tag. what other deal for a power hitter can you point to that gave up three players of that caliber?  you cant, although feel free to try (this isnt just super high upside, low level guys...)

and as for Cabrera, there is something unsettling about a guy who gets drunk the night before an elimination game and beats up his wife.  not sure his priorities are correct.  and how fat is he going to get before he can no longer play defense...oh wait, he is already there.  well, how fat till it starts effecting his ability to hit?  there is no doubt he can hit now, but what happens when he eats his way through that too?

It is always important to consider the benefits of the early years of a career when players can't negotiate big contracts. Still, you can't just look at what players can do. You must also look at what they can't do, because they might never develop the ability to do those things.

Young players eventually plateau. Once it is obvious that they have plateaued, you can't get much for them. There needs to be risk to get reward.

In the end, it is in fact determined by the market. There is no formula for determining parity in trades like this. In the end it comes down to what both sides are will to settle for (also considering competing offers). It is all very subjective, so I tend to be of the 'you all have reasonable arguments' perspective on this.

[winsomme]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

this works both ways, nick. what if Buch, Ells, and Kelly struggle this season and A-Gon continues to put up his big numbers? is it then too much to offer that package of guys...

the point is: there is a price to get A-Gon right now...that's why the discussions took place.

IMO Hoyer was looking for something along the lines of Buch, Ells, Kelly and Theo didn't want to go there....

And as I have said and Hoyer has said, Gonzalez, right now, can't be had for any price. Right now trading Gonzalez would be a before the season would be a career suicidal move for Hoyer. The trade can not and will not happen, regardless of price.

I disagree. I think it's posturing. I think he knows that trading A-Gon when his value is high is the smart thing to do because right now, the Padres are not very good....and the thing that really puts people in the seats is a good team not one big-name player and that's why we saw all those reports a few weeks back about talks between the Sox and the Pads

I think Theo thought the price tag was too high (i disagree with him) and that's why Hoyer has now moved to the "we're not looking to trade A-Gon" stance...

[nickagneta]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

this works both ways, nick. what if Buch, Ells, and Kelly struggle this season and A-Gon continues to put up his big numbers? is it then too much to offer that package of guys...

the point is: there is a price to get A-Gon right now...that's why the discussions took place.

IMO Hoyer was looking for something along the lines of Buch, Ells, Kelly and Theo didn't want to go there....

And as I have said and Hoyer has said, Gonzalez, right now, can't be had for any price. Right now trading Gonzalez would be a before the season would be a career suicidal move for Hoyer. The trade can not and will not happen, regardless of price.

I disagree. I think it's posturing. I think he knows that trading A-Gon when his value is high is the smart thing to do because right now, the Padres are not very good....and the thing that really puts people in the seats is a good team not one big-name player and that's why we saw all those reports a few weeks back about talks between the Sox and the Pads

I think Theo thought the price tag was too high (i disagree with him) and that's why Hoyer has now moved to the "we're not looking to trade A-Gon" stance...

So you really think he'll sell more tickets in San Diego because he is going to make the team better THIS YEAR by trading away the superstar 40-50 HR, 120-140 RBI, home grown slugging first baseman for a speedy center fielder with a bad arm and no power, a potential #2 starter(potential being the operative word) and some highly touted prospects??

You really think the baseball ticket buying clientele out in southern California is going to believe that the subtraction of an AllStar hitting firstbaseman with MVP stats and addition of young potential players is going to make the Padres better this year and sell tickets??

Are you serious??

[winsomme]

so your argument is that Buch,Ells,Kelly is not the price tag for A-Gon, but SD wouldn't do the deal if offered.....

that means you are saying the price tag is higher than Buch, Ells, Kelly....not lower...

the seller determines the price tag. If SD wants more than Buch, Ells, Kelly, then that's the price tag...

thus, my assertion that we should go beyond what we think A-Gon should go for in order to get the deal done.
thats not correct.  I am saying that from our front office's perspective (and really, and smart front office), that price tag is too high.  HOWEVER, from SD's perspective, that might not be enough (due to the reasons which countless people have already mentioned as to why they dont need to and wont trade him now).  do you see?

Seller's determine the price but the market dictates the final selling price. SD could ask for the world but if no one is willing to pay it then that's not the price the will receive and they will have to rework their price.

But even right now, SD won't take even that price. I have already gone over the reason why and don't want to repeat myself but eventually, I think SD will probably not get a package better than Buchholz, Ellsbury, Kelly and someone else for Gonzalez. That's a ridiculously high price. Heck, as time passes they might not even want Buch and Ellsbury as they get closer to being arbitration eligible. They may want all minor leaguers on the verge of the Show to max out their cost control on those players contracts, which, as we know is the reason they need to move Gonzalez, eventually, in the first place.

this works both ways, nick. what if Buch, Ells, and Kelly struggle this season and A-Gon continues to put up his big numbers? is it then too much to offer that package of guys...

the point is: there is a price to get A-Gon right now...that's why the discussions took place.

IMO Hoyer was looking for something along the lines of Buch, Ells, Kelly and Theo didn't want to go there....

And as I have said and Hoyer has said, Gonzalez, right now, can't be had for any price. Right now trading Gonzalez would be a before the season would be a career suicidal move for Hoyer. The trade can not and will not happen, regardless of price.

I disagree. I think it's posturing. I think he knows that trading A-Gon when his value is high is the smart thing to do because right now, the Padres are not very good....and the thing that really puts people in the seats is a good team not one big-name player and that's why we saw all those reports a few weeks back about talks between the Sox and the Pads

I think Theo thought the price tag was too high (i disagree with him) and that's why Hoyer has now moved to the "we're not looking to trade A-Gon" stance...

So you really think he'll sell more tickets in San Diego because he is going to make the team better THIS YEAR by trading away the superstar 40-50 HR, 120-140 RBI, home grown slugging first baseman for a speedy center fielder with a bad arm and no power, a potential #2 starter(potential being the operative word) and some highly touted prospects??

You really think the baseball ticket buying clientele out in southern California is going to believe that the subtraction of an AllStar hitting firstbaseman with MVP stats and addition of young potential players is going to make the Padres better this year and sell tickets??

Are you serious??

wow, you are really down on Buch, Ells, and Kelly....

Does that mean that you would trade Buch, Ells, and Kelly for A-Gon? Or do you agree with yall that we would be way way overpaying to trade those guys for A-Gon?

also, what kind of winning percentage do you predict for the Padres this season?

[nickagneta]

Answer my question first and then I will answer yours.

[winsomme]

Answer my question first and then I will answer yours.

I think Buch is a top of the rotation type pitcher and think that he could win 18 games this season in the NL.

I think Ells is a .300 hitter who might be the best base stealer in the league and would flourish in the NL. he's built for the NL.

I think Kelly is another top of the rotation pitcher and could be in the majors by the end of this season.

I also think that the Padres are as constructed headed for another 3rd or 4th place finish in NL West and that doesn't sell tickets.

This is why IMO Hoyer and Theo were talking just a few weeks ago about trading the untradable  A-Gon....but he wants to get his asking price.

[nickagneta]

Answer my question first and then I will answer yours.

I think Buch is a top of the rotation type pitcher and think that he could win 18 games this season in the NL.

I think Ells is a .300 hitter who might be the best base stealer in the league and would flourish in the NL. he's built for the NL.

I think Kelly is another top of the rotation pitcher and could be in the majors by the end of this season.

I also think that the Padres are as constructed headed for another 3rd or 4th place finish in NL West and that doesn't sell tickets.

This is why IMO Hoyer and Theo were talking just a few weeks ago about trading the untradable  A-Gon....but he wants to get his asking price.

You didn't answer my question.

You really think the baseball ticket buying clientele out in southern California is going to believe that the subtraction of an AllStar hitting firstbaseman with MVP stats and addition of young potential players is going to make the Padres better this year and sell tickets??