Author Topic: Don't underestimate the impact of losing Leon Powe, and TA and BBD being injured  (Read 13058 times)

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Offline Chris

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We need someone to close the lane and take some charges. This is not happening and the result is tons of uncontested layups by the opposition.

Last season we had 2 big men doing this on a consistent basis: Powe and Davis. This season we have about none. That's it.

Another good point, I hadn't even thought about that.  Really, I can't think of anyone taking charges this year other that Pierce a few times, and Scal (who seems to do it whenever he gets on the floor during non-garbage time).

I know Perk and Garnett don't do it, because they realize they are better utilized holding their ground, and protecting the basket, than playing the 50/50 game that is taking a charge.  But it really is surprising that we don't see that more out of Williams.

Offline kozlodoev

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I think Davis and Powe realized that they're not going to swat a lot of shots and focused on beating the dribbler to the spot. Being shorter and more mobile helped too.

Everyone whined about not having length on the bench last season -- it's time to acknowledge we have no mobility neither on the bench, nor in the starting lineup this season. I am hoping that a recovered Garnett and a healthy Glen Davis will solve this issue, but to me it's the major reason why the defense has looked somewhere between atrocious and pitiful for most of this season.
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Offline nickagneta

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I think Davis and Powe realized that they're not going to swat a lot of shots and focused on beating the dribbler to the spot. Being shorter and more mobile helped too.

Everyone whined about not having length on the bench last season -- it's time to acknowledge we have no mobility neither on the bench, nor in the starting lineup this season. I am hoping that a recovered Garnett and a healthy Glen Davis will solve this issue, but to me it's the major reason why the defense has looked somewhere between atrocious and pitiful for most of this season.
How exactly is a healthy Glen Davis going to solve the defensive issues to start the game and third quarters when the starters are always on the court for the first 8 minutes of each if there is no foul trouble?

Offline Celtics17

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I am a huge BBD fan. I really think when he comes back that the bench will get a real lift. He does so many things that go unnoticed and he is a very good low post defender. Sure, he doesnt block a lot of shots but when your opponent can't get into the lane due to Baby's mass then you are a good low post defeneder simply because your opponent can't get in the lane. That may sound funny but it's true. He has done a good job against some dominant big men in the league and really only Shaq is capable of moving the guy. He is also a good shooter.

Offline BASS_THUMPER

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well why dont we use scal now the way we would baby?

all i see scal doin is runnin round and he got more skills than that

Re: Don't underestimate the impact of....
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2009, 06:30:03 PM »

Offline Scalablob990

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When I was referring to Leon it was with the assumption he were healthy and still playing the way he was playing during our championship run and up until he got injured again last year. And I'm not doing a woulda coulda shoulda...I understand Leon is injured and we now have Sheldon and Leon signed with the Cavs...

My point is that Leon's numbers were less important than the tough, scrappy, in your face energy he brought to the second team and how that motivated/inspired the crowd and the second team players. And how that therefore was very important to the psyche of the team.

Posey had the same effect, just doing different things than Leon but both were very similar in their toughness and heart they displayed on the court.

Who's playing that role now? House? Rasheed? Marquis? Sheldon? These guys are good at different things and I like them all but they do not bring that intangible element to the second team.

On a much different level but in a similar fashion it's the same difference between a KG and a Ray Allen. Both hall of famers but KG lights you on fire when he's on the court while you appreciate Ray's game. Powe, Posey...they fire you up, they're jsut on the second unit.

It's the emotional edge they bring to the team. Fisher has it, Battier has it, Greene had it, etc...

Tyhese guys won't win you a ring by themselves but they are glue guys that fill out the puzzle.

I don't see us having that guy yet on the second team. The leader...the emotional spark plug. Who is it?

In the meantime, simply having the young, energetic legs of Big Baby and TA back will be a very welcome sight to mix in with the vets. One guy on the block, one on the wing.

Baby will make all our bigs better rebounders by throwing other bigs around down there and eating up space. And sorry, Sheldon Williams is nice and has done a good job and I like him but he is a wall flower emotionally compared to Big Baby. Bib Baby is the closest thing to a Leon Powe mentality we have coming off our bench once he gets healthy. He plays with emotion, we can use all we cang et of that quality right now.

The energy of Leon and baby were very important to our championship run, it will be nice to have at elast one of them back shortly.

While I agree Tony's biggest asset for us will be his expiring contract in a trade, it won't hurt to have someone with some semblence of speed coming off the bench when we are getting torched every night by fast wings.     

Wasn't Powe awarded the RA 6th man award from us last year which everyone forgot about? People have short memories  :). I agree with your glue statement since when Posey left Leon was able to half fill those shoes, the other half were laid unclaimed unfortunately. If Leon was healthy his rebounding would have critically helped right now.
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Offline liam

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We need someone to close the lane and take some charges. This is not happening and the result is tons of uncontested layups by the opposition.

Last season we had 2 big men doing this on a consistent basis: Powe and Davis. This season we have about none. That's it.

Another good point, I hadn't even thought about that.  Really, I can't think of anyone taking charges this year other that Pierce a few times, and Scal (who seems to do it whenever he gets on the floor during non-garbage time).

I know Perk and Garnett don't do it, because they realize they are better utilized holding their ground, and protecting the basket, than playing the 50/50 game that is taking a charge.  But it really is surprising that we don't see that more out of Williams.

Smaller guys need to do it because you have to fall down to get the call. If Perk falls it'll look fake and he's so big he could get hurt.  Some ran over Garnett the other night and since he didn't fall it was a defensive call.

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Kozlodev brings up a great point about Powe and Baby, being not as long for big men, using their speed to clog up the lanes and take alot more charges. This created alot more energy and pace on the defensive end. And as he properly states, we are slow to those spots this year and it's resulting in alot of easy layups for other teams. Powe and Baby's energy and speed with the young legs were a very nice compliment to KG and Perk's slower long game at the rim.

I think it's important to also note that these types of things Kozlodev describes are the exact same thing that Rambis, AC Greene, Fisher, Posey, Powe and other "glue type guys" also do.

It's a combination of energy, hustle, grit and toughness. I just don't see that guy on our bench yet. I like House, Sheed, Marqis and Shelden, alot. But they don't provide this element and I think it is a very critical element.

That's why I think that having no Powe AND missing Baby and Tony ( two tough, scrappy, hard nosed young guys with energetic legs) makes a big difference in the team right now. And I think getting those two guys back will be a major boost and we won't see our best basketball being played until they are back and the team has about another month to work it all out together.

I alos think Ryan Gomes would be a great, great replacement for Powe / Posey. Does all the little things, perfect glue guy.

Shelden has been great. I really like him and hope he plays here along time. This said, he is not Powe or Baby. He is slower and more of a plodder, more similar to KG and Perk.

His offensive is mostly opportunistic. Whereas with Powe and Baby, they are legitimate threats ( Powe in the block is a terror, and Baby is a threat from inside and out ). If I had to choose, I'd trade Shelden before Baby in a New York minute. Baby is a gamer, he is a threat in many ways and he plays with alot of heart. Shelden is a nice solid role player with a few good skills.

The difference between Powe and Shelden to me is Powe is an animal, he is the type of player that is nose to the floor for 48 minutes, every game. Shelden will play you hard from the hips up. Leon also has the intangibles to me, the heart, the emotion, that relentless attitude.

Speaking of emotion, I see no reason to see Baby crying on the bench as asign of weakness. i see it as a strength and what makes him endearing to his teammates and the fans and also what makes him a gamer, a guy who plays with alot of passion. It's why the crowd loves him and why he can energise the team.

What kind of team would this be?

Parish / Duncan / Julius / Gervin / Kidd

It would be the kind of team that would get crushed by this team:

Parish / Duncan / Bird / Gervin / Kidd

Reason? The emotional intensity Bird brings that would infuse the second team and make each one of other four staters that more intense, that much more confident and that much better.

I call them the emotional engine of the team, the alpha dogs that make it all go.

That is why:
The Celtics are not the same team without KG, the Lakers without Kobe, The Bulls without Jordan, The 80's Lakers without Magic, The Rockets without Olajuwan, The Pistons without Thomas, etc.

It's a combination of skill and the ability to inspire and it can be at the all pro level, or the second unit level.

Bird, KG, Jordan, Magic, they all have it at the all pro level.

KG is the emotional engine for the team at the highest level. But most great teams have another "junk yard dog" coming off the bench that acts as the emotional engine for the second unit.

Perhpas that's the best way to describe what I'm talking about, who's the junkyard dog for the second unit on this team? You know, KG is the junkyard dog on the first unit, he barks and backs it up. Perk has some junkyard in him too, just not the talent of KG.

Rambis, AC Greene, Michael Cooper, Derek Fisher, Maxwell, ML Carr, Leon Powe, Posey, Even Delonte West, Rodman, Mahorn,

All these guys have a few things in common:

1. Even if they don't have starter talent, they play like they think they do.

2. They back down from NO ONE. In fact, they take it to everyone like they are the better player.

3. They all do the dirty work. But more importantly, they like doing it.

4. They all stand and fight. You get the feeling if you get into it with any of them, it's going to the floor.

It'a mentality I'm talking about, it's not just the numbers they put up. Powe and Shelden could put up similar numbers but they will impact the team's psyche alot differently becasue of the way they're put up.

It's the difference between:
Dave Cowens and Robert Parish
KG and Chris Bosh
Shelden Williams and Leon Powe or Baby

It's intensity. You need the Parish's and the Bosh's too, but you have to have the other element to be great.

I don't see that guy on our bench. He was there when Posey and Powe were here.

It's like the difference between KG and Chris Bosh. Bosh puts up much larger numbers than KG. But he doesn't come close to impacting the game the way KG does.

Who would you want on your side going into a championship series? That's a rehtorical question. And that's my point.

The fact that Shelden puts up as good or better numbers than Powe means nothing to me. Powe makes the team dramatically better putting up similar numbers to Shelden because he amps up the rest of the team, gets them juiced when they saw him going nose first to the floor or getting into it down low with someone. I know Powe is gone. And this whole conversation is made with the assumption that Powe were healthy, for argument's sake. The fact that Pose is gone and Powe is gone, who fills that void? That role?

It's called passion. We need some. We have it with KG, Perk and pretty much all the starters when they're properly motivated and come playoff time they will be.

Where's it come from on our bench? Who's the junkyard dog?

That's why I think two young guys who are physical, tough and energetic will be a ver, very welcome lift for this team to mix in with the vet savvy older players.

PS: I think Lester Hudson and Bill Walker have some junkyard dog in them. They are just not ready. But they would be nice compliments to the more refined, specialised games of Eddie Marguis and Sheed.

Rasheed has some junkyard in him but he's a bit too old and doesn't bring the other requisite elements at thsi point in his career to claim the title; speed and energy.

PSS: As a nother good example, we are facing one of the best young junkyard dogs in the game tongiht in Gerald Wallace. You know you are "in for it" when you play this guy. Same thing with a Posey, A Powe, A Fisher. They are going to be up into you on every play.

I'm hoping Baby and Tony can give us some of that physical aggression off the bench when they get back.

   
   

Offline nickagneta

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Completely disagree with just about everything you wrote.

Honestly, substituting Bird in for Dr J is just a straw man's argument. You aren't subbing in the same player but with emotion, you are subbing in one of the three greatest players of all time who's talent would make the difference, not their emotion. Then you go on to talk about taking Jordan, or Bird, or Kobe off their team's would make those teams different because of their glue-like emotional leadership?!?!

Come on, Scooby. You're talking about the greatest players who ever lived who's teams would be different because it lacks those players' talents, not their emotions?!?!

I agree that having emotional end of the bench guys help a team but they are sometimes far, far overvalued by the watching public simply because people see the emotion and not the talent.

Honestly, Powe, healthy is a better player than Williams. But not by a lot and definitely, maybe not by any now if Powe can't come back from his injury as explosive as he was. Powe's beastliness underneath has more to do with his explosiveness to the ball using his quickness and strength in his legs than it does his emotions. If Powe doesn't have that, he won't be as good as Williams and hence, not as needed as what Williams will give this team.

Also, you keep mentioning 27 year old Tony(soon to be 28 in a month) and 25 year old Leon(soon to be 26 in a month) as having young legs that would help. You are aware that Williams is just 26(just turned 26 in October) and Daniels is just 28(soon to be 29 next month(wow, lots of January players))? Also, you are aware that neither Williams nor Daniels have had recent major surgery on those young legs like Powe and Allen has, right?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:08:21 PM by nickagneta »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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I know you disagree with me...The fact that you can substitute Bird in for Dr. J and have a dramatically better team proves my point about the importance of those players who inspire
(whether it's as an all pro, a starter or the bench guy who has the ability to get the team juiced).

All the great teams throughout the history of the NBA have that one guy who is the emotional leader, the emotional engine of the team. Most businesses have that guy as well. You take that guy away from the team / company and the team / company simply isn't the same. It may still be good but it's not great.

That's the difference a KG makes to an organisation.
That's the difference a Posey or a Powe or some "junkyard dog" makes to a bench. Yes, you need the finesse of House or Marquis but you also need the fire and aggression of a Powe or a Posey or a birdman in Denver. It's a combination of skills that makes a great bench. And to me one of the critical elements is the down and dirty guy that will get in their and mix it up with anyone on the other team. That's Rambis, that's Rodman, that's Powe, that's Cooper. It'a more of a mentality and emotional attitude than it is mere numbers.

It's the same reason KG is who you want and not Bosh even though Bosh puts up much bigger numbers than KG. It's the emotional inspiration factor that leads the rest of the team.

You need that guy coming off the bench and I don't see it there with us right now. I'm hoping Baby and Tony can provide some of that physical aggression and inspirational intenstity ( more Baby than TA, TA is sort of a door knob) but he is at least physical defender.

Re Bird vs Dr. J. I disagree there, it's not straw man's argument  I think Dr. J had just as much or more talent than Bird. What Dr. J lacked was the ability to insprire his teammates like Bird did. Dr. J could, like dominique, make some jaw dropping shots /dunks but he didn't inpsire his tema like Bird did when he would go head long out of bounds for a ball, or go nose first to the floor with Rodman and Laimbeer or he'd go after Kareem. Bird wasn't just talented, he was a major junkyard dog, he'd get down and dirty and up into you. Dr. J was never that player mentally. He was just more gifted than Bird athletically.

And that's what I'm talking about. It's talent yes, but it's the mentality that inpsires and separates the players.

It's why KG can put up 10 points and still dominate a game.
Same for Bird. These guys dictate the mental mood of the game when they are on the court. That is the difference.

And it also applies to your bench at a much different level of course.

That is why there is a big difference between how Leon might impact a game and how Shelden would given the same relative numbers. It's how they do it and their mentality that makes them a bit different.

These guys you know are going to get down and dirty and up into you every night.

I know that Daniels and Shelden are injury free and that Powe and Tony have had surgeries. I like both Shelden and Daniels alot as well. But neither of them brings that one element off our bench that I'm talking about. They bring other very good skills but we need all the right elements to have a great bench and one of them is a junkyard dog.

Leon was one. He's gone
Posey was one. He's gone
House, Sheed, Daniels, Shelden. They arent' junkyard dogs.
Bill Walker: He's one but he's too young.
Lester Hudson: He's one but he's also too young.

I'm hoping baby and TA can bring it.
Baby is a brawler around the rim, not too many people want a piece of him down there. He and Perk make some nice smack down there.

TA: I've always liked him cause he's a physical sticky defender.

Thsi being said, I do agree he's probably most valuable ina  trade scenario.

I also think Nocioni would be a good junkyard addition to the bench. I just don't like his contract.

Sheed
Baby
Noicioni
Daniels
House

Now you've got a nice combination of fire and skill sets on your bench.

Gotta have the junk, it's part of the puzzle.

I'm hoping Baby and TA can bring some junk back with them to the bench.

Off the top of my head. Matt Harpring was lawys one of my favorite junkyard dogs off the bench. Brought alot of passion to the second unit.
       

Offline Fafnir

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It's the same reason KG is who you want and not Bosh even though Bosh puts up much bigger numbers than KG. It's the emotional inspiration factor that leads the rest of the team.
Actually its because KG is a +++ defender and has been throughout his career. Chris Bosh, not so much. Can Chris Bosh improve, sure. Can his other overall contributions make him a better player than KG going forward, perhaps. But he'll never be the amazing defender KG is/was.

This link shows you an example of how big the gap between their defense is. KG is number 1. Bosh is 245th....

link

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Agreed on that Fafnir, it is largeley due to KG being a great defender. However, Chris Bosh is also a wall flower in comparison to KG and in terms of being able to inpire,poke and prod the other players on his team. It's almost an alpha male quality, you either have it or you don't. KG has "it", Bosh doesn't.
Bith Powe and Posey had "it", even though they were bench guys, they were alpha male players and they barked like it.

Same for Bird, Magic, Jordan, Fisher, Rodman.

It's not specific to the talent level necessarily, it's the player and his mentality.

It's just dso happens when you have great talent combined with this alpha male mentality, you then have Bird, Jordan, KG, etc...As much as I love Pierce I wouldn't put him in this category. Pierce is simply a great hall of fame player, same for McHale, but Bird made the Velts go and so does KG becasue they have "it".

And the guy who's coming off your bench with "it", plays that same role as KG for the second unit but just at a much different level. It is very important nonetheless.

And I don't see any of our current guys having "it". I'm hoping Baby can provide it. That and just the young legs as well to mix with the vet bigs. And Baby's legs are alot younger 'acting" than Shelden's. Shelden is a more like Perkins, just smaller. 

Offline Fafnir

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I think you overemphasis "alpha male"-ness.

Leadership can be done quietly, look at David Robinson and Tim Duncan.

Offline BballTim

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Re Bird vs Dr. J. I disagree there, it's not straw man's argument  I think Dr. J had just as much or more talent than Bird.        

  I'll disagree with this. Bird was more talented than Dr. J, who was a great player in his own right.

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Maybe I used the wrong terminology. By Alpha male, I'm referring to leadership. Tim Duncan is a more subdued guy but he is definately intense and he is a leader.  I don't quite see that with David Robinson though. He won once Duncan came along and he had good teams around him before Duncan arrived but didn't win.

So to me alpha male means the leader, someone people will follow and some one who carries other people with him.

It's a combination of skills and mentality.
KG has it, Bird has it, even DJ had it. Cowens had it
But Parish, McHale and Ainge didn't have it as players, they were just great players.
Pierce, as much as I love him, doesn't have it. Walker alwyas palyed that role and then it was KG.

It's not a knock, it's what it is, you have it or you don't. You can't learn it.

Kobe has it, Fisher has it. Bynum, Artest and Gasol don't have it.

You really think that Dr. J, one of the most prolific scorers of all time, wasn't as talented as Bird from a physical standpoint? I thought what separated both Bird and Magic ( as neither were grear run/jump athletes) was their BB IQ and their mentla intensity and leadership skills. But from a sheer physical talent level I thought their were many guys equal to or better than them.