Don't underestimate the impact of losing Leon Powe, and TA and BBD being injured

[greg683x]

I love pessimists, I really do. Not understanding the value of a Leon Powe is the best possible proof someone can offer that illustrates their lack of knowledge of the game of basketball.

I didn't say Leon Powe was Moses Malone, what a ridiculous response. Sometimes I think people on this board's only motive is to bash what ever anyone else says, that's all they have to do or something.

Leon Powe is a glue guy, and if you don't know that you don't know basketball. James Posey was/is an incredible glue guy. Leon Powe is that same type of player. Think Derek Fisher...AC Greene, ML Carr...John Paxson...Shane Battier, almost every NBA Championship team has one. It's not their numbers, it's their heart, scrapiness and the way those qualities motivate and energise your second unit. Leon and Posey were the best two "Glue guys" we had. We haven't yet found a replacement for either and we ahvent' won another ring either...yet. And I'm sorry, no, Williams can't replace Leon's inspirational, heart filled play, even if he puts up bigger numbers. And even if he did, it's the emotional content Leon brought that is more valuable thatn "just numbers", same for Posey, Greene, Fisher, Carr, etc. They are second team glue guys...they are critical in helping you win rings.

As for Tony...four losses, mostly the result of getting absolutely destroyed by speed on the wings. I'm not his biggest fan ( though I do like him in certain match ups) but I'd sure use him at off and play daniels more at the three when we're playing major speed. It at least gives you another option when you are looking like you're 95 years old against the wing speed of some of these faster teams.

Baby? He will dramatically effect the rebounding of Garnett, Perkins, Rasheed and Pierce. Again with Baby, it's not his numbers on this team, it's the way he moves bodies around in the paint that "allows" the other guys down low to appear to be that much better of reboudners. he's a space eater.

Tony and Baby's young legs and energy ( two glaring weaknesses  in each of our four losses )will be greatly welcomed.

Once they are back and the team has another 1-2 months to to work out the kinks and completely gel ( assuming no majore injuries) this team will be what we were all thinking.

Dominant. But I'm still not sure who's going to be out Glue guy, we havent' found him yet. All your starters are glue guys by definition, that's why they start. We need one from the bench though. All great teams have one

 

I agree about Big Baby, his energy, hustle, shooting, and D will be welcomed back, even though Sheldon has done a great job.

Leon would be out the majority of this season and when he is able to come back, I promise you he wont be the same Leon Powe that you remember for at least  another like 8 months if he ever regains that form.  So using him as an example for a cause of this seasons woes is kind of pointless since he wouldnt be playing anyway.  His presence is missed and I promise you it isnt underestimated, especially by anyone on this blog, but losing Leon this season was unavoidable whether hes on the team or not.

Tony Allen I also dont agree with.  Tony can be a good defender, however, whenever this team is in a spot at the end of the game and NEEDS a stop, Tony has failed us just about every time we've looked towards him.  If you want examples, Fouling Chauncey Billups giving him game winning free throws in 2008.  Fouling Ben Gordon in the playoffs last year giving the Bulls extra life in an overtime game.  He can be a good defender, but if youre using it as the sole excuse to give him minutes then you are overrating it way too much.  Because there arent spare minutes to hand out at SG right now, and his offense doesnt even sniff the likes of Eddie House, Marquis Daniels, and not to mention Ray Allen.  All three of witch are also better ball handlers than Tony who is an absolute train wreck handling the ball.  So the minutes Tony MIGHT recieve are gonna be very small, so I dont understand the impact you think he might make.

So I completely agree with you about Big Baby Davis, and respectfully disagree about Powe (only b/c he wouldnt be playing anyway) and especially TA.

[Celtics17]

The thing about a "glue guy" that makes him so valuable, and why they are always found on dominant teams, is that they are so versatile. With Posey, if you needed a defensive stop, a big rebound, a key steal or a three, he could do them all. It's not just their ability to do a variety of things well though that make them so valuable, it's their ability to do the thing the team needs the most, and do it at just the right time!

[Jon]

And what exactly would be the impact of either one of those players from the bench, because that's where they both would be right now.  Tony Allen would be lucky to find 5 minutes per game on this team (and he likely wouldn't even find that).  As for Baby, at best he'd be getting the 10-15 mpg that Williams is getting right now, but right now he'd be lucky to even get that.  Williams has played well and offers better length and rebounding than Baby.  And if we had Leon and Baby, there definitely wouldn't be minutes for both. 

It's nice to sit back and think about what each player "could" do for the C's, but it's not possible given the amount of minutes. 

[celticsclay]

I think the term "glue guy" is kind of monday morning quarterbacking in a way. It seems like when a team wins a championship people look back after the fact and decide who their glue guy was. For example, maybe Derek Fisher has something that is good for the team. However, for most of their titles I would say robert horry certainly was a role player that stepped up and hit a lot more big shots. Also, when Fisher moved to Utah, he certainly did not help them get over the hump. I know he did help them win one particularly game by showing up at halftime, but overall, they were a talented team and he did not make a magical difference.
As for Battier, a lot of people points to him as a glue guy, or chemistry guy as well. However, as far as I know last year was the farthest his team ever advanced in the playoffs (conference finals). I think he was on some very average memphis teams prior to that.
Posey is another good example, he may have been a solid player in the right place at the right time with heat and celtics. Playing solid d, shooting some good threes, the occasional steal and steady board work. However, put him on Charlotte and the team completely imploded. So if he was a "glue guy" wouldn't he stop them from getting blown out by 60 points in the playoffs?

Yet, aside from my issues with the term itself, I will say there are probably some guys that help players get along better and rarely make dumb plays. I would say Battier and Fisher do fit this definition. From the celtics, I would say Scalabrine, Powe and even Kedrick Perkins fit this definition very well.
If I had to pick one, I would go with KP. He manages to have the most impact on a game, and I can never really think of a time when he was the reason for a loss (bad shots, lots of turnovers).

[ScoobyDoo]

When I was referring to Leon it was with the assumption he were healthy and still playing the way he was playing during our championship run and up until he got injured again last year. And I'm not doing a woulda coulda shoulda...I understand Leon is injured and we now have Sheldon and Leon signed with the Cavs...

My point is that Leon's numbers were less important than the tough, scrappy, in your face energy he brought to the second team and how that motivated/inspired the crowd and the second team players. And how that therefore was very important to the psyche of the team.

Posey had the same effect, just doing different things than Leon but both were very similar in their toughness and heart they displayed on the court.

Who's playing that role now? House? Rasheed? Marquis? Sheldon? These guys are good at different things and I like them all but they do not bring that intangible element to the second team.

On a much different level but in a similar fashion it's the same difference between a KG and a Ray Allen. Both hall of famers but KG lights you on fire when he's on the court while you appreciate Ray's game. Powe, Posey...they fire you up, they're jsut on the second unit.

It's the emotional edge they bring to the team. Fisher has it, Battier has it, Greene had it, etc...

Tyhese guys won't win you a ring by themselves but they are glue guys that fill out the puzzle.

I don't see us having that guy yet on the second team. The leader...the emotional spark plug. Who is it?

In the meantime, simply having the young, energetic legs of Big Baby and TA back will be a very welcome sight to mix in with the vets. One guy on the block, one on the wing.

Baby will make all our bigs better rebounders by throwing other bigs around down there and eating up space. And sorry, Sheldon Williams is nice and has done a good job and I like him but he is a wall flower emotionally compared to Big Baby. Bib Baby is the closest thing to a Leon Powe mentality we have coming off our bench once he gets healthy. He plays with emotion, we can use all we cang et of that quality right now.

The energy of Leon and baby were very important to our championship run, it will be nice to have at elast one of them back shortly.

While I agree Tony's biggest asset for us will be his expiring contract in a trade, it won't hurt to have someone with some semblence of speed coming off the bench when we are getting torched every night by fast wings.     

[xmuscularghandix]

Lack of BBD yes, Leon Powe... no. I think Shelden has filled the Powe role in nicely especially considering his much better FT shooting.

Perk is also growing into a very good player, so thats really taking away minutes that would have been here for the Show.

Once we have the KG, Perk, Sheed, Davis rotation in effect. We're gonna be on FIRE.

[nickagneta]

Since you seem to be easily offended I will try to be as positive as I can while completely disagreeing with your point. Hopefully this will show that just because people disagree with you that they actually do know the game of basketball and you don't have to insult them that they don't.

I think what you are saying is that Baby, Leon and Tony would instill a certain attitude, a certain energy, a certain speed and hustle that has been missing. Here's the thing though, the Celtics worse quarters and the areas of the game where they have had the worse difficulty has been in the first and third quarters when the starters have been playing. Exactly how would the changing of bench players help this area of poor play which, as far as I am concerned is the main reason for the Celtics poor play and losses?

The answer is quite easy. It wouldn't.

Now, could the addition of these players mean better second and beginning of fourth quarters and better results because of their overall better play than the players in there? Who can say for sure.

I do really have to say that the toughness, grittiness, defense, offensive rebounding, and bench presence that Leon brought is being almost perfectly brought by Sheldon Williams. Since Sheldon leads the team in offensive rebounds, rebounds, and free throws made and attempted per minute, things Leon always led the team in, I don't see how this can even be argued against. Leon IS injured after all and won't be playing this year.  So by bringing in a player that has been successful in duplicating what Leon did, the Celtics already have what you claim they are lacking.

As for Tony, I have to vociferously disagree with you there. I doubt he would even be getting many minutes on this team. My guess is the only minutes he would have gotten thus far would have been Giddens' minutes. That means he might have gotten into 10 games at 3.5 minutes per game. Given Tony's penchant for turnovers, dribbling the ball off his foot, driving the lane with his head down, throwing line drive rocks at the basket, fouling at inappropriate times, falling for head fakes, and getting lost on rotations, I just don't see that whatever you claim he would have brought would have helped this team any more than the clueless play that Giddens brings.

As for Baby, I agree 100% with you. He has a presence  and versatility that the Celtics could really use. I don't think his subtraction from the team is what is ailing the team but he would definitely been a positive effect.

Personally I think what ails this team is a general lack of focus, bad, simultaneous, shooting slumps, an awful lack of defensive intensity, and poor ball movement on offense and body movement on defense. Over the last couple games there has been signs that they are pulling out of this general funk.

I just don't think, and agree with a lot of others here, that the players you claim would have made a big difference would have. They couldn't have made the starters play better during times of the game where they don't play. Leon couldn't have given this team anything and Sheldon leads the team in areas where Leon usually leads the team. And Tony is a worthless NBA player, much like the player who's minutes he would have been playing.

[Redz]

I thought of Leon for the first time in a while last night when Shelden took it strong to the hole and missed a dunk.  I loved it when Leon did those (except made them).

The last one's my favorite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdzEKPRsGOg

[guava_wrench]

More than anything else, TA brought intense towel waving. He can still do that in a suit.

[xmuscularghandix]

I thought of Leon for the first time in a while last night when Shelden took it strong to the hole and missed a dunk.  I loved it when Leon did those (except made them).

The last one's my favorite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdzEKPRsGOg

I agree, the only thing is that Leon just had his 25th ACL surgery and i don't know if he could have done that either.

But Baby has lost a lot of weight and has shown some added athleticism. I can't wait until "The Less Fat One" starts jamming on people.

[ScoobyDoo]

Hey Nick, actually I'm not easily offended. However, I don't like it when, if people disagree with you, they simply put up some dismissive comment about your post rather than providing a constructive counter argument as you just have.

If someone puts up some dismissive, sarcastic comment ( which is an insult) rather than some logical counter argument, they derserve the same insult back, which is what they got.

Anyway, regarding your post, I agree re the 1st and 3rd quarters. That's exactly my point though, being able to insert a Posey, Powe or Baby into the lineup to infuse some energy, a different look is helpful. Rasheed, House, Marquis and Sheldon are all nice. But none if them play with the grit, emotion or intense physical energy that Posey, Powe or Baby play with. It's the energy, the emotion that we're lacking from the bench. That's what I thought Powe and Baby did so well..and Posey when he was here. I don't see that guy on our bench right now. I see good players but not that guy with the emotional energy.

I really like what Shelden has brought, I think he's a great addition. However, like with Posey, I think for Powe ( and Baby to a lesser extent) it's not just the numbers. Powe, Posey and baby they also get you juiced with the fire they play with, it'a a personality thing. It's like the difference between KG and Pierce. You love both but KG is the one who gets you amped, gets the crowd all fired up with his emotions.

I think really good second units also have a similar guy like KG ( on a second team level) that do the same thing. They can stand on their own, will go nose to nose with anyone on the other team. They act like a starter mentally, they just have second team talent. They're aggressors. That's Powe, Posey, baby...They pick the team up.

I agree with you that there are larger issues going on. I think they've taken the attitude that they can show up and win, that's a major problem. They need to work, hard. If they do, they will be dominant, if they keep mailing it in we'll get more of what we've been seeing.

I also think they need more time to figure out Marquis and Wallace playing with the starters.  

I understand Leon is injured, I am not saying I think he would help us as is. I am saying what he was, what he brought, is now lacking and some youthful legs and energy might be the difference between us being 16-1 rather than 13-4 or whatever we are.

We can agree to disagree re TA. I know amny hate the guy. I wouldn't care much if he was traded but while he's here, he'a another young, energetic and physical player on D. I'd use him a little when we're getting toasted by speed on the wings.  

Some extra young legs would be a great addition to this vet team.  

  

[Redz]

I thought of Leon for the first time in a while last night when Shelden took it strong to the hole and missed a dunk.  I loved it when Leon did those (except made them).

The last one's my favorite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdzEKPRsGOg

I agree, the only thing is that Leon just had his 25th ACL surgery and i don't know if he could have done that either.

But Baby has lost a lot of weight and has shown some added athleticism. I can't wait until "The Less Fat One" starts jamming on people.

Oh, didn't say I want him now, just that it made me think of him.  He was a fun player when he was on.

[EJPLAYA]

Honestly I think Shelden is the perfect combo of BBD and Powe for us at this point. He may not be quite as animated as BBD is, but he shoots about as well. He rebounds about as well as Powe also and brings some toughness. I like combining the two and giving the minutes to Shelden. Take BBD and scraps and send them in a trade somewhere… Maybe we can get a solid backup PG so Eddie can play strictly the 2.

[nickagneta]

I think Rasheed overflows with emotion and even though he has been slumping from outside, when he is playing his inside(down low) and outside(three point shooting) game, he is a hge emotional burst to this team. Very seldom has a three made by a bench player ignited the crowd the way Rasheed's threes do. I've been in the Garden for Posey's threes and House's threes and Leon's put back offensive rebounds. None of them on average lift the crowd and create as much noise and excitement as seeing Sheed knock down a three and yell all the way back down the court. So in regards to pure emotion, I will just have to disagree with you.

I do think Baby will bring that as well as. At least, this is my theory. The crowd and the team get a huge lift from watching guys they know can wheel and deal underneath, step out, hit a long jumper and emotionally defeat the other team because that team knows there's little they can do to stop a guy that big from hitting that shot.


I think Marquis and Sheldon bring as much youth and energy as Tony and Powe. Let's not forget, Sheldon is just 26 and Daniels 28. It's not like they aren't athletic or fast or young. They are.

But I think what you are getting caught up in is a mistake that many sports fans make. Because they don't see screaming and emotional outbursts and demonstrative acting after a player makes a good play they feel the team that that player plays for doesn't get that emotional lift from seeing that player make a great play.

When JD Drew hits a homerun or makes a great diving catch, his team still gets a huge, huge emotional lift. I know. I personally know one of the players and have asked him about such things. The same holds true with Marquis and Sheldon. They may not be emotionally explosive people but their play still inspires their team mates and gets the very intelligent basketball watching crowd at the Garden pumped.

As for Tony, does he really bring anything to the table that Walker or Giddens doesn't? Except for a bigger paycheck, I seriously doubt it.

[Jay G]

We really really really really really really should have kept powe. Even if he didnt get back to his full self like last year, he would have helped tremendously when he would come back late in the year.