Brandon Jennings Drops 55 on the Warriors

[Fafnir]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

[Hoops]

. . .and was the only player in history to AVERAGE almost a triple-double. He was way ahead of his time and it's too bad that he gets overlooked so much today.

Even in your defense against those short-changing the Big O, you shortchanged him.   He didn't *almost* average a triple double, he *did* average a triple double.  In 1961-62, he averaged 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 assists (on very respectable 47.8% shooting). 

The amazing thing that many people forget is that, other than that season, he had four other seasons averaging at least 28 points, 9.0 rebounds, and 9.5 assists.  Once, he missed averaging a triple-double by 0.3 assists, and another time, by only 0.1 rebounds.  Unreal.

No, you're absolutely right, Roy. I should have been more clear by saying that he almost averaged a triple-double for his career. But that he did it for an entire season is probably a better and more eye-popping example of his greatness.

[PosImpos]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

[scoop]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

Those guys were garbage. Sessions and Villanueva were net negatives (clever decision from Hammond to let them go, albeit an easy one) and Jefferson is grossly overpaid for what he delivers.

The reason the Bucks were winning games last season till Bogut went down and are winning games now is simply Andrew Bogut and the tremendous defence and rebounding he offers.

Excellent defensive and rebounding teams (and the Bucks are one of those as long as they are healthy) generally make the play-offs, even when their offense is atrocious (and that's the case with the Bucks as well). Right now they have two elite defenders (Bogut and LRMAM), a few above average ones (Ilyasova, Bell, Delfino) and some guys who are either pesky, experiencend or hard-nosed enough to not be liabilities (Jennings, Ridnour, Thomas, Gadzuric). Plus, three elite rebounders (Bogut, Ilyasova, Delfino) and a few guys that do well for their positions.

Bogut has quickly turned into one of the most underapreciated players in the league. His offence is okay - decent down low when he can get position, very good facing up and passing except that he lacks a jumper, bad FT shooter - but defensively only an in-form Garnett and Dwight Howard are able to do more. He isn't flashy by all means and isn't a top shot-blocker, so he'll probably fail to make an All-Defense team, which is a shame.

Jennings is indeed a streaky shooter - especially off-the-dribble, he's solid with his feet set -, with a questionable shot selection. His accuracy on jumpers will regress to the mean (prediction: people will blame Redd's return to the line-up). The comparisons to AI don't make any sense at all though. Jennings still has to learn the job of being a PG (that's to be expected from a 20 years old), but he's a fantastic passer, with a great feeling for the game and a workshorse. Very enjoyable to see on the open-court.

[LarBrd33]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

Those guys were garbage. Sessions and Villanueva were net negatives (clever decision from Hammond to let them go, albeit an easy one) and Jefferson is grossly overpaid for what he delivers.

The reason the Bucks were winning games last season till Bogut went down and are winning games now is simply Andrew Bogut and the tremendous defence and rebounding he offers.

Excellent defensive and rebounding teams (and the Bucks are one of those as long as they are healthy) generally make the play-offs, even when their offense is atrocious (and that's the case with the Bucks as well). Right now they have two elite defenders (Bogut and LRMAM), a few above average ones (Ilyasova, Bell, Delfino) and some guys who are either pesky, experiencend or hard-nosed enough to not be liabilities (Jennings, Ridnour, Thomas, Gadzuric). Plus, three elite rebounders (Bogut, Ilyasova, Delfino) and a few guys that do well for their positions.

Bogut has quickly turned into one of the most underapreciated players in the league. His offence is okay - decent down low when he can get position, very good facing up and passing except that he lacks a jumper, bad FT shooter - but defensively only an in-form Garnett and Dwight Howard are able to do more. He isn't flashy by all means and isn't a top shot-blocker, so he'll probably fail to make an All-Defense team, which is a shame.

Jennings is indeed a streaky shooter - especially off-the-dribble, he's solid with his feet set -, with a questionable shot selection. His accuracy on jumpers will regress to the mean (prediction: people will blame Redd's return to the line-up). The comparisons to AI don't make any sense at all though. Jennings still has to learn the job of being a PG (that's to be expected from a 20 years old), but he's a fantastic passer, with a great feeling for the game and a workshorse. Very enjoyable to see on the open-court.

I think the reason they are winning is because they are playing some crappy teams... and when they played Denver, Jennings went off for 32 points and 9 assists.   If he's streaking like that, they can probably beat a few teams.

I still doubt it lasts, though.

[BASS_THUMPER]

fluke...i put cash on it he dont get them digits again...

[Amonkey]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

Those guys were garbage. Sessions and Villanueva were net negatives (clever decision from Hammond to let them go, albeit an easy one) and Jefferson is grossly overpaid for what he delivers.

The reason the Bucks were winning games last season till Bogut went down and are winning games now is simply Andrew Bogut and the tremendous defence and rebounding he offers.

Excellent defensive and rebounding teams (and the Bucks are one of those as long as they are healthy) generally make the play-offs, even when their offense is atrocious (and that's the case with the Bucks as well). Right now they have two elite defenders (Bogut and LRMAM), a few above average ones (Ilyasova, Bell, Delfino) and some guys who are either pesky, experiencend or hard-nosed enough to not be liabilities (Jennings, Ridnour, Thomas, Gadzuric). Plus, three elite rebounders (Bogut, Ilyasova, Delfino) and a few guys that do well for their positions.

Bogut has quickly turned into one of the most underapreciated players in the league. His offence is okay - decent down low when he can get position, very good facing up and passing except that he lacks a jumper, bad FT shooter - but defensively only an in-form Garnett and Dwight Howard are able to do more. He isn't flashy by all means and isn't a top shot-blocker, so he'll probably fail to make an All-Defense team, which is a shame.

Jennings is indeed a streaky shooter - especially off-the-dribble, he's solid with his feet set -, with a questionable shot selection. His accuracy on jumpers will regress to the mean (prediction: people will blame Redd's return to the line-up). The comparisons to AI don't make any sense at all though. Jennings still has to learn the job of being a PG (that's to be expected from a 20 years old), but he's a fantastic passer, with a great feeling for the game and a workshorse. Very enjoyable to see on the open-court.

The team you are describing would be good enough to win a D-League championship, but not in the NBA.  Role players with good rebounding and defensive players are good for championship that has at least one All Star player, but you need an All Star player.  Just look at teams like Charlotte that has some decent role players but no All Star.  If this was the case, Memphis should be a good team.

[PosImpos]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

Those guys were garbage. Sessions and Villanueva were net negatives (clever decision from Hammond to let them go, albeit an easy one) and Jefferson is grossly overpaid for what he delivers.

I don't love those guys either, but I really think you're selling them short.  Richard Jefferson is a solid player.  Charlie Villanueva is apathetic on defense but is a good scorer.  Ramon Sessions is a very good passer, and is probably the most efficient out of the 3.

So far Jennings is better than Sessions, at least as far as scoring is concerned, and Moute is probably a lot better defensively / rebounding than Villanueva.  But they sure are a weaker scoring squad without Richard J and Charlie V.  Why do you think Jennings scores 20 a game?  They have very few other options.

[LarBrd33]

I'm going to probably watch him tonight... but im expecting a 2-17 performance.

[scoop]

People are already talking about him being a streaky shooter and somewhat implying that he is a ballhog and just a scoring point guard.  However, there is one thing that is being underrated in this discussion.  His team is WINNING!  Considering that you best players are Bogus, I mean Bogut, the Prince, and Hakim Warrick (I believe Redd is out but correct me if I am wrong).  Therefore this team should have no business winning games.  By meaning I mean a decent 5-2 record.

Its only been 7 games. We'll see if he can keep it up, he looks good right now though.

And you're underselling the Bucks, before they lost Redd/Bogut they were in the running for the 4/5/6 seed in the east.

That was when they had Ramon Sessions, Charlie Villanueva, and Richard Jefferson, though.  A much different team.

Those guys were garbage. Sessions and Villanueva were net negatives (clever decision from Hammond to let them go, albeit an easy one) and Jefferson is grossly overpaid for what he delivers.

The reason the Bucks were winning games last season till Bogut went down and are winning games now is simply Andrew Bogut and the tremendous defence and rebounding he offers.

Excellent defensive and rebounding teams (and the Bucks are one of those as long as they are healthy) generally make the play-offs, even when their offense is atrocious (and that's the case with the Bucks as well). Right now they have two elite defenders (Bogut and LRMAM), a few above average ones (Ilyasova, Bell, Delfino) and some guys who are either pesky, experiencend or hard-nosed enough to not be liabilities (Jennings, Ridnour, Thomas, Gadzuric). Plus, three elite rebounders (Bogut, Ilyasova, Delfino) and a few guys that do well for their positions.

Bogut has quickly turned into one of the most underapreciated players in the league. His offence is okay - decent down low when he can get position, very good facing up and passing except that he lacks a jumper, bad FT shooter - but defensively only an in-form Garnett and Dwight Howard are able to do more. He isn't flashy by all means and isn't a top shot-blocker, so he'll probably fail to make an All-Defense team, which is a shame.

Jennings is indeed a streaky shooter - especially off-the-dribble, he's solid with his feet set -, with a questionable shot selection. His accuracy on jumpers will regress to the mean (prediction: people will blame Redd's return to the line-up). The comparisons to AI don't make any sense at all though. Jennings still has to learn the job of being a PG (that's to be expected from a 20 years old), but he's a fantastic passer, with a great feeling for the game and a workshorse. Very enjoyable to see on the open-court.

The team you are describing would be good enough to win a D-League championship, but not in the NBA.  Role players with good rebounding and defensive players are good for championship that has at least one All Star player, but you need an All Star player.  Just look at teams like Charlotte that has some decent role players but no All Star.  If this was the case, Memphis should be a good team.

The team I described are the Bucks. But I never said or suggested they could win a championship with this roster. Where did you get that from?

I mentioned making the play-offs. Just check the records. Teams that are top-3 in def. eff. and reb. rate can be terrible offensive teams and still make the play-offs. See some of Skiles' past teams with the Bulls, for example, I think one of them was like the 28th best offensive team in the league. Of course, to win championships you need a better offence.

In any case, Bogut may not have start power but he is clearly a top-5 center in the league right now. His defence and rebounding alone put him there.

[scoop]

I don't love those guys either, but I really think you're selling them short.  Richard Jefferson is a solid player.  Charlie Villanueva is apathetic on defense but is a good scorer.  Ramon Sessions is a very good passer, and is probably the most efficient out of the 3.

So far Jennings is better than Sessions, at least as far as scoring is concerned, and Moute is probably a lot better defensively / rebounding than Villanueva.  But they sure are a weaker scoring squad without Richard J and Charlie V.  Why do you think Jennings scores 20 a game?  They have very few other options.

Jefferson is solid, but he doesn't even come close to overproduce his contract. He makes sense for a team like the Spurs, who are willing to overpay to have another shot at the title.

Sessions is an extremely ball-dominant SG who can't shoot or defend. He puts some nice numbers the same way Carlos Arroyo (a player of similar quality ) put them in Utah in the season before he got a contract similar to the one the Wolves offered Sessions (and that quickly become a burden): by keeping the ball on his hands for too much time. Ridnour and Jennings are better players, Ukic is not much worse.

Villanueva is wildly inconsistent, a streaky and relatively inneficient scorer and a defensive liability.

Yeah, they are a weaker scoring team. But there's more to the game than scoring and they are much improved on other areas - and with a much improved finantial situation.

[scoop]

I'm going to probably watch him tonight... but im expecting a 2-17 performance.

Yeah, his shooting will regress to the mean at some point.

[BirdNerd]

I'm a Cs fan, but watched this 2nd half.   I was DVRing the Cs and passed through in the 3rd Quarter.  

I live in CA and watched the Kobe 81.    This was on par with the 81 in the shear amazement of what he was doing.   BIG difference though, he was still setting his teammates up, grabbing 50/50 balls, and rebounds and making the right decisions.  He only took a couple bad shots in that stretch, but they were heat checks and going in!!!!  He already looks comfortable in the pick and rolls.

Jennings is a left handed AI with a better feel for the game, more to prove, and seems like a better kid.   Watch the $&# out!!!

[Eja117]

I picked him up in my head to head fantasy league after maybe his 2nd game. I figured in 4 more games he'd fall back to Earth. He was like a 35% shooter till he started playing games that count. Now there are very very very few guys I trade him for. I'd consider Derron Williams, Joe Johnson, but don't even come here with weak azz Baron Davis or Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups or something.

He's like Iverson with a good fg%.

I like the way he walks and talks. He's infusing the Bucks with pride they haven't felt since maybe the 1970s

I love love love it when a cocky player who knows he's the best goes on a personal mission to humble the entire league.

He was humbled in Italy and took things people said about him personally and now it's payback revenge time.

random prediction:  the field goal percentage will not last.  By the end of the season he'll be shooting around 40%

Agreed -- Jennings is a streak shooter (with an iffy shot selection) who's going through a hot patch right now. Those FG% will plummet.

I just don't get how he can shot like 33% in europe and 33% in the preseason and then suddenly turn into a consistent 49% shooter.  Not happening.  He's streaking.  I'm guessing he's going to have a few 2 for 17 games pretty soon. 

I hope not.  It'd be pretty exciting if some 20 year old kid just busted onto the scene and dominated.   But I just can't see it happening.  55 points in the 7th game of his career is pretty freakin amazing though considering that Iverson's career high is 60.

The last time I was like, "oh snap" about a midget rookie was when 19 year old Dajuan Wagner busted into the league and had 17 points, 5 points, 29 points, 28 points, 25 points, 29 points, 18 points, 7 points, 33 points... and then his career was pretty much over from there.    That's the kid who scored 100 points in a high school game.  But to be fair to Jennings, Wagner wasn't shooting that high of a percentage when he went on his early rookie scoring explosion.

Another unfair comparison...   I remember when Ronald Murray joined the Sonics after being pretty average his first couple years... he filled in for Ray Allen and this was his game log to start the season: 24 points, 22 points, 24 points, 24 points, 29 points, 20 points, 16 points, 26 points, 31 points, 26 points, 21 points...    the highlight of his career.  People eventually realized he was a streaky ballhog shooter and he's puttered around the league ever since.

I'm sure Jennings is going to have a far better career than either of those guys...  but i'm just saying that an early season hot streak isn't unprecedented.

When was the last time a 19 year old rookie streaked so well that he was playing like one of the top 7 players in the league and got the Bucks to win with no help whatsoever?

This is totally different from anything ever seen.

I agree with you he may well come down to Earth, because teams will start double and triple teaming him and fouling him, and his true ability to shoot is probably more like 43% or something, but what he's doing is amazing, not just a streak. If it's just a streak it's pretty much the most amazing streak of all time. What happens when he goes for 100? Just a streak, getting lucky? I'm not saying he will, but it's like that. Ok. That is an extreme example to prove my point, but it's the natural logical extreme extension of where this kid is presently heading. 19 year olds go for 20 points. They rarely go for 55. Maybe Bron and Melo did.

Also I don't see why when Chris Paul goes for 25, 8 rebs, and 9 assists and his team loses people say "Oh he's such a good point guard" but when 19 year old Jennings goes for like 35, 9, and 9 and the Bucks actually win people say "Oh he's streaking. He's not that good."  Mkay. I'll choose to believe until he gives me reason not to

[scoop]

[quote author=Who link=topic=32984.msg615901#msg615901
I just don't get how he can shot like 33% in europe and 33% in the preseason and then suddenly turn into a consistent 49% shooter.  Not happening.  He's streaking.  I'm guessing he's going to have a few 2 for 17 games pretty soon. 

I hope not.  It'd be pretty exciting if some 20 year old kid just busted onto the scene and dominated.   But I just can't see it happening.  55 points in the 7th game of his career is pretty freakin amazing though considering that Iverson's career high is 60.

The last time I was like, "oh snap" about a midget rookie was when 19 year old Dajuan Wagner busted into the league and had 17 points, 5 points, 29 points, 28 points, 25 points, 29 points, 18 points, 7 points, 33 points... and then his career was pretty much over from there.    That's the kid who scored 100 points in a high school game.  But to be fair to Jennings, Wagner wasn't shooting that high of a percentage when he went on his early rookie scoring explosion.

Another unfair comparison...   I remember when Ronald Murray joined the Sonics after being pretty average his first couple years... he filled in for Ray Allen and this was his game log to start the season: 24 points, 22 points, 24 points, 24 points, 29 points, 20 points, 16 points, 26 points, 31 points, 26 points, 21 points...    the highlight of his career.  People eventually realized he was a streaky ballhog shooter and he's puttered around the league ever since.

I'm sure Jennings is going to have a far better career than either of those guys...  but i'm just saying that an early season hot streak isn't unprecedented.

His numbers from Europe are a bad guide:

- his shooting improved by miles during his stay. I can get the exact numbers if you want, but his FG% improved quite a bit from 1st half of the season to the 2nd one (they ought to, he was being coached by one of the best renowned shooting coaches in Europe).

- he didnt' have all the close, highly efficient, shots opportunities in Europe that he gets in the NBA. Less fast-breaks and the European defences are tougher and more stringent. Plus, he was terrible running the p'n'r at the start of his European career (another area he's much improved - Europeans spend an awful amount of time practising the ballscreen game).

That said, you're right, he isn't this good of a shooter. Jennings isn't a ball-hog though. And unlike other guys, he has more assets than scoring. His FG% will decline because there's no way he can keep hitting jumpers like this. But if he improves his shot-selection and his jumper off-the-dribble, he'll be an excellent player.