Author Topic: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?  (Read 28236 times)

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Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2009, 10:44:00 AM »

Offline GKC

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Only on these forums do we win a game by over 30 points, bring a team to record low levels, have our stars play less than 30 minutes...and the coach still isn't good.

Guys, it's one game. Players who are good will get their time. The time on the floor is based on how well you do in practice, and we don't see those so we really are all biased or misguided in these opinions.

Ray Allen played 38 minutes. . .That's the argument is about.  If KG played 38 minutes tonight, I think many people would be on board with the argument that he played too many minutes.  The same needs to go for Ray Ray.

I was more responding to the people complaining about rookie minutes.

But again, we're 2 games in. Maybe Ray wanted to stay in just to get into rhythm. There's too little information we have to be criticizing Doc.
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Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2009, 10:49:00 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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There is absolutely a clear connection between lower minutes per game in the regular season and energy/performance in the playoffs.

Really

Last year Pau Gasol played 37 MPG and Kobe 36,1 MPG and won gold.
In 2005-06 Dwayne Wade played 38.6 MPG and won it all.
In 2004 Ben Wallace played 37.7 MPG and Billups and Hamilton were close to 36 MPG and they won the championship.
During the Lakers championships Kobe and Shaq were right at 40 MPG every year they won it.
MJ and Pippen were consistently around 38-40 MPG during their last 3 championships when they were in their deep into their mid 30's.

About the only coach that didn't ride his star players to long minutes in championship years is Greg Popovich. He seems to be the exception not the rule.


Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2009, 11:09:35 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Does anyone realize the history of the amount of games that Ray Allen plays 38 MPG or over before the calendar turns over to December over the last 8 years? Here's the stats:

Year        # of 38+     FG%
                 Games
2008-09   8 of 18      .480
2007-08   10 of 15    .445
2006-07   14 of 16    .438
2005-06   10 of 14    .454
2004-05   15 of 16    .428
2003-04   13 of 16    .440
2002-03    2 of 12     .439
2001-02    9 of 13     .462
 
Sorry but there is just no correlation between playing less 38+MPG games early and Ray having or not having a good FG% for the year. What history does show is that Ray plays a lot of 38+ MPG games early on and he has admitted in 2007 when he got here and last night that he likes to get extra run to get into game shape early in the season.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2009, 11:32:09 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2009, 12:06:37 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2009, 12:08:06 PM »

Offline GKC

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We have a 2 game sample size.

Cool your jets.
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Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2009, 12:18:49 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

And yet they did tire out last year... so much for superior athletes being above it.

Anyways, just so we're clear I really don't care Ray playing big minutes at the moment. It's the premise of your argument that minutes are not important in the overall picture that I have a huge problem with.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2009, 12:23:52 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

And yet they did tire out last year... so much for superior athletes being above it.

Anyways, just so we're clear I really don't care Ray playing big minutes at the moment. It's the premise of your argument that minutes are not important in the overall picture that I have a huge problem with.

They also had an unreasonable burden placed on them by carrying the team for the last 2 months and into the playoffs with KG down.

If we get a serious injury again this year, minutes leading to fatigue won't be the issue.
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Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2009, 12:26:51 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

And yet they did tire out last year... so much for superior athletes being above it.

Anyways, just so we're clear I really don't care Ray playing big minutes at the moment. It's the premise of your argument that minutes are not important in the overall picture that I have a huge problem with.

They also had an unreasonable burden placed on them by carrying the team for the last 2 months and into the playoffs with KG down.

If we get a serious injury again this year, minutes leading to fatigue won't be the issue.

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.

Of course, health in the scheme of things is more important than watching the minutes... but more minutes also increases the chances of injury, not that I really buy into it since injuries can happen at any moment.

And I also believe that with a full team we can surpass tiredness, and execute.

But that doesn't mean that you forgo being prudent about the amount of minutes you play your players during the course of the season.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2009, 12:30:12 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

And yet they did tire out last year... so much for superior athletes being above it.

Anyways, just so we're clear I really don't care Ray playing big minutes at the moment. It's the premise of your argument that minutes are not important in the overall picture that I have a huge problem with.

They also had an unreasonable burden placed on them by carrying the team for the last 2 months and into the playoffs with KG down.

If we get a serious injury again this year, minutes leading to fatigue won't be the issue.

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.
And yet for every tough 38 minutes they play they also get a game like last night where they will go through the motions for periods of time and not play 110% hardnosed because they don't have to. It all evens out.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2009, 12:30:39 PM »

Offline Chris

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As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.

I agree that minutes can't be dismissed.  But I also do not believe they are a reason for concern at this point in the season.

I also believe that they are very different for different players.  

For example, against most teams, KG playing 32 minutes causes about the same fatigue as Ray Allen playing 42 minutes.  Because of the way they play, and the energy level exerted, there needs to be a sliding scale.  

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2009, 12:34:58 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Obviously, big minutes doesn't necessarily lead to fatigue... but it's a component of it. Completely dismissing it is foolish.

In a team like the Celtics, for example, were everyone is expected to play hard every single possession... a team that plays hard in both sides of the court, it can really take it's toll.

It's like me saying that Burger King's sandwiches don't cause people to get fat because I can eat there every day and I'm still lean.

The other side that might be missing in the assessment above are the teams that got tired and didn't accomplish their goals. Where those teams that won the championship while still playing big minutes, was the team overall fresher than the opponent? Those components are missing.
I don't think it's foolish at all. These are professional athletes and I don't see that they would tell you that over the course of a season if they averaged 33-34 minutes per game or 36-38 minutes per game that at the end of the year they would be any more or less fatigued or unable to perform.

Throughout sports it is the superior athlete and talent that wins championships and does so by riding the coat tails of heavy play from their stars. Every single sport ever is that way. We are talking supremely fit beyond anything most of us can imagine. Just because we think we're in shape and get tired after a five mile run doesn't mean that an athlete the caliber of Ray Allen would. He might not have even broken a major sweat or be seriously winded after a five mile run.

I think much too many of us try to instill what we are aware of in athletics into the thinking of what it is like for professional athletes and honestly, I think most of us are clueless in that regard as to what really tires these guys out and what they can and can't do over the course of a year.

3-4 extra MPG for Ray Allen during a stretch in time over the course of the season is eventually going to mean very little come playoff time where the true champions are playing with there minds and less so with there bodies anyways.

And yet they did tire out last year... so much for superior athletes being above it.

Anyways, just so we're clear I really don't care Ray playing big minutes at the moment. It's the premise of your argument that minutes are not important in the overall picture that I have a huge problem with.

They also had an unreasonable burden placed on them by carrying the team for the last 2 months and into the playoffs with KG down.

If we get a serious injury again this year, minutes leading to fatigue won't be the issue.

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.
And yet for every tough 38 minutes they play they also get a game like last night where they will go through the motions for periods of time and not play 110% hardnosed because they don't have to. It all evens out.

True, but you can't be counting on it. Last season should be a lesson. If you remember two years ago, I was one of the few (along with you) that kept saying that the minutes will take care of themselves as the season progresses... and Doc delivered, reducing the amount the played as the season went on.

Last year he was in the same path but injuries kinda forced him to overplay his players, so he couldn't count on those easy games to balance it out. I thought Doc could've managed those minutes better to find better ways to rest them would not risking much as far as losing games go... but that's besides the point here.

It's a risk, and again it shouldn't be dismissed off hand.

As I said, minutes it's not the sole reason for fatigue, it's merely a component that shouldn't be dismissed. And considering how the Celtics play the game, quite hard in just about every possession I would argue that minutes are more important for us than many other teams, particularly ones that don't play both sides of the court.

I agree that minutes can't be dismissed.  But I also do not believe they are a reason for concern at this point in the season.

I also believe that they are very different for different players.  

For example, against most teams, KG playing 32 minutes causes about the same fatigue as Ray Allen playing 42 minutes.  Because of the way they play, and the energy level exerted, there needs to be a sliding scale.  

Certainly, I don't care for the amount of minutes they're playing at the moment, and I disagree with many of the Doc critics in here for the amount of harshness employed over this one game. But it also doesn't mean that their concern is not valid because it is.


Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2009, 12:42:12 PM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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Nickagenta, TP to you.. you have saved me a lot of writing.

Ray & Rondo are the only starters that I have no problem with them staying in for extra minutes. 

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2009, 12:47:43 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Certainly, I don't care for the amount of minutes they're playing at the moment, and I disagree with many of the Doc critics in here for the amount of harshness employed over this one game. But it also doesn't mean that their concern is not valid because it is.



See I agree. I think the harshness and the conviction that some are criticizing Doc here over last night's game is just to me, not understandable. If this was game 32 or 42 or 62, then you are 100% right, there's a problem and the minutes being played needs to be criticized and justly so. 40 MPG for Ray on average is way too much.

But again, he has a history of not only playing big minutes early in the season, but wanting to and requesting to. So for him, after game two, I think the amount of flak is unjustified.

But if at the end of the year Ray has played an average of 35-36 MPG, I really don't see a big difference between that and 32-33 MPG, which is where I am guessing some people want to see the Big Three at.

Re: If doc is a good coach why does he do this?
« Reply #119 on: October 29, 2009, 12:54:03 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Certainly, I don't care for the amount of minutes they're playing at the moment, and I disagree with many of the Doc critics in here for the amount of harshness employed over this one game. But it also doesn't mean that their concern is not valid because it is.



See I agree. I think the harshness and the conviction that some are criticizing Doc here over last night's game is just to me, not understandable. If this was game 32 or 42 or 62, then you are 100% right, there's a problem and the minutes being played needs to be criticized and justly so. 40 MPG for Ray on average is way too much.

But again, he has a history of not only playing big minutes early in the season, but wanting to and requesting to. So for him, after game two, I think the amount of flak is unjustified.

But if at the end of the year Ray has played an average of 35-36 MPG, I really don't see a big difference between that and 32-33 MPG, which is where I am guessing some people want to see the Big Three at.

36-37 I'm comfortable with. I think it's irrational to shoot for the 32-33 mark and hold Doc accountable for it.