If doc is a good coach why does he do this?

[GKC]

Only on these forums do we win a game by over 30 points, bring a team to record low levels, have our stars play less than 30 minutes...and the coach still isn't good.

Guys, it's one game. Players who are good will get their time. The time on the floor is based on how well you do in practice, and we don't see those so we really are all biased or misguided in these opinions.

[Bahku]

Why coming off a game high 42 minutes last night, does doc still have Ray in the game in the 4th quarter up 26 with 10 min left?! It wasn't until Tommy Heinsohn made mention of the fact that Ray had logged the most minutes in the game and most of the bench players had only 10 minutes that doc took Ray out.

Ray plays the most minutes on the team each of the first two games (42, 38) on back to backs, especially when the latter is a blow-out?


Is there any possible, reasonable, logical explanation for this other than doc is asleep at the wheel?

Yes ... because Ray is the "Swing-Man" on this team, and they want him playing significant minutes with the bench, like he did last year, facilitating the fast-break and setting up the passes, as well as keeping the defense honest. Ray LIKES to play more minutes anyway, and he may have requested it. I'm as critical of Doc as anyone has been in the past, but I'm amazed that we're having these "bash-the-coach" threads already. Doc is a great coach, plain and simple, (whether you agree with everything he does or not), and if he has Ray on the floor for extended minutes in a blow-out game, you can BET there's a good reason!

[MBz]

Only on these forums do we win a game by over 30 points, bring a team to record low levels, have our stars play less than 30 minutes...and the coach still isn't good.

Guys, it's one game. Players who are good will get their time. The time on the floor is based on how well you do in practice, and we don't see those so we really are all biased or misguided in these opinions.

Ray Allen played 38 minutes. . .That's the argument is about.  If KG played 38 minutes tonight, I think many people would be on board with the argument that he played too many minutes.  The same needs to go for Ray Ray.

[crownsy]

Only on these forums do we win a game by over 30 points, bring a team to record low levels, have our stars play less than 30 minutes...and the coach still isn't good.

Guys, it's one game. Players who are good will get their time. The time on the floor is based on how well you do in practice, and we don't see those so we really are all biased or misguided in these opinions.

Ray Allen played 38 minutes. . .That's the argument is about.  If KG played 38 minutes tonight, I think many people would be on board with the argument that he played too many minutes.  The same needs to go for Ray Ray.

I wasen't aware ray was recovering from major off season surgery.

@roy: fair enough, just saying I don't think it's unreasonable to take doc's side in this one. If it becomes a trend that rays over 35 a night no matter what the situation, then I'll be concerned. But one night doesn't really concern me.

[Chris]

Why coming off a game high 42 minutes last night, does doc still have Ray in the game in the 4th quarter up 26 with 10 min left?! It wasn't until Tommy Heinsohn made mention of the fact that Ray had logged the most minutes in the game and most of the bench players had only 10 minutes that doc took Ray out.

Ray plays the most minutes on the team each of the first two games (42, 38) on back to backs, especially when the latter is a blow-out?


Is there any possible, reasonable, logical explanation for this other than doc is asleep at the wheel?

First off, let me say that I missed the game, so I hope I am not speaking out of turn.  But from what I have seen and read of last night's game, it turned out to be little more than a walk-through.  For a player as well-conditioned as Ray Allen, 38 minutes is nothing.  Baiscally, it was like a nice, evening jog. 

[MBz]

I just get concerned, look at what has happened with the Spurs in recent years.  Towards the end of the season, their age has caught up with them and really taken a toll on them come playoff time.  Also, Gregg Popovich, the guy who I consider one of the best coaches in the NBA seems to get the picture.  Look at their boxscore, not one of their stars over 26 minutes.  There is no need to throw a player out their and give them the chance to pick up an injury.

[Chris]

I just get concerned, look at what has happened with the Spurs in recent years.  Towards the end of the season, their age has caught up with them and really taken a toll on them come playoff time.  Also, Gregg Popovich, the guy who I consider one of the best coaches in the NBA seems to get the picture.  Look at their boxscore, not one of their stars over 26 minutes.  There is no need to throw a player out their and give them the chance to pick up an injury.

Actually, I think you could argue that the Spurs have become an example of why limiting minutes is not necessarily the answer.  They have drastically limited the minutes of their stars the last two years, and they still keep getting sunk by injuries.

Playing guys less minutes is not going to make a significant difference in whether they get injured or not, and ultimately, what kills great teams in the playoffs is injuries. 

So instead of worrying about that, why not try to win as many games possible to try to get home court advantage, while not completely running your players into the ground (and playing Ray Allen, one of the best conditioned athletes in the NBA, for 38 minutes last night, was not running him into the ground).

[dark_lord]

it is only the 2nd game of the season, and we have 2 impressive wins....this is one of those times where CB sucks.  enjoy the games and the team.  dont be overanalitical, anal, or unnecessarily critical. 

[the_Bird]

The other element of this that I don't think anyone has mentioned...

Doc's a guy who has the respect of everyone in that locker room, in part because he seems to genuinely listen to and respect the opinions of his players.  That doesn't mean that he's necessarily a pushover.  But, if Ray Allen - who's always in great shape and who knows his body better than anyone and who knows what he needs to do to get his game going - if Ray Allen asks for basically a couple more minutes of practice time to get his shot going, Doc Rivers is going to respect that.  I think this speaks to the relationship Doc has with his veteran players.

This doesn't mean that Doc should (or does) just blindly allow everything that his players request, but in a situation like this - the Bobcats aren't playing especially physically, it's the second game of the season, and Ray's been a little out of rhythm so far - I don't have any problem with Ray getting a couple more minutes.

As to the complaints that this all relates back to Ray and Paul getting too many minutes last season...  you'd a rather those extra minutes went to Tony Allen, perhaps, or JR Giddens?  Wholly different set of circumstances this season.  There really wasn't much choice last year other than to ride Ray and Paul as much as they could, because the players behind them were not NBA-caliber.  We've actually got a bench this season, so yeah - if Doc consistently plays Ray Allen 38 minutes a game all season long, there's a problem but there's no real reason at this point (other than the usual CelticsBlog panic) to believe that he will. 

[kozlodoev]

8 minutes, 3 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 bad foul, 1 missed shot. I really don't know how that translates to a disaster of a player. I mean it's not like he's doing a ton of awful mistakes that really costs us... it's not like he's shooting a ton of shots and missing them. For the most part he keeps away from the rest, and with all the talent we have on our team I'm not so sure that entirely that awful of a thing.

Right, he's not doing a ton of awful mistakes. He's just not doing anything. He's got no offensive moves, no reliable jumper, and his only NBA-caliber skill seems to be rebounding.

So think Reggie Evans at the swingman position. Given the alternatives, that's just not enough.

[CoachBo]

man i just wouldn't be celticsblog without panic threads over minor details early in the season 

I mean, i though ray played a bit to long tonight, to be sure, but only about 3-4 minutes.

No cause for a "doc's the worst coach ever" thread 

TP. I'm not going to worry about this until Ray Allen tells me he needs a blow.

A good coach - sorry - listens to his vets and plays them accordingly. Ray looked OK energy-wise throughout. It's early, and it's important not to fixate on limiting minutes at the risk of delaying the conditioning of your vets.

As for Giddens, I just don't see him staying in the league. Not enough there.

[Fan from VT]

There is absolutely a clear connection between lower minutes per game in the regular season and energy/performance in the playoffs.

There will always be an excuse to play good players. First game was it was Cleveland. Close, emotional game. Game two was a blowout, but Ray wanted to stay in. Then maybe game 3 will be close, so 40 minutes. You need to set boundaries and stick to them despite any excuses that may arise if you know they are good for the team in the long run.


Doc's job is to make hard choices. He knows that the playoffs are what matters and that it's clear that players wear down throughout the season if they play many minutes. That's why he makes big money, so he can say "I know you want to play, Ray, but we got this one, save it for Chicago."



Yes, it's only two games, but the limiting of minutes is a season long thing and you have to start when you can...and blowouts are the best chance.


I mean there's such a clear correlation between age, minutes, and late season performance, that I just don't see how anyone can logically look at this situation and think it was a great choice. This is the EXACT same stuff that happened the last two seasons and contributed to publicly stated, analyst observed and statistically obvious fatigue. And I like Doc as a coach, but this is his problem, always has been. The rationing of minutes starts now and lasts all season.

[Fafnir]

This is the EXACT same stuff that happened the last two seasons and contributed to publicly stated, analyst observed and statistically obvious fatigue.

I agree that there is a clear connection. But you have not presented any sort of statistical argument, nor has anyone else in this thread.

If you're going to argue there is a statistical correlation between long regular season minutes, and fading in the playoffs you'll have to actually present a study or two. (And no just siting the sample of the last two years with Ray is not sufficient)

If you can't do that, lets stay away from that sort of language.

[Fan from VT]

man i just wouldn't be celticsblog without panic threads over minor details early in the season 

I mean, i though ray played a bit to long tonight, to be sure, but only about 3-4 minutes.

No cause for a "doc's the worst coach ever" thread 

TP. I'm not going to worry about this until Ray Allen tells me he needs a blow.

A good coach - sorry - listens to his vets and plays them accordingly. Ray looked OK energy-wise throughout. It's early, and it's important not to fixate on limiting minutes at the risk of delaying the conditioning of your vets.

As for Giddens, I just don't see him staying in the league. Not enough there.

I just don't see how this makes sense at all. A coach needs to look beyond the individual and the individual game. He needs to know the long term goals. A great athlete will always want to compete and will always look good, but the coach HAS to think long term and know the trends and odds. That's his job. Ray is a player. He's a veteran. But he's still a player and he has a coach. The coach needs to do his job. Doc knows that all the evidence says for an older player, averaging upper 30's per game will be detrimental to late season play. So tell Ray no, and save him for the playoffs.

Blah blah blah, one game doesn't matter, but all those one games add up, because there's always an excuse, and then suddenly Ray is fatigued at the end for the 3rd year in a row.

[Donoghus]

I briefly touched on this last night after the game by mentioning that two games is by far too small a sample size and I stand by that.  What happened last year or two years ago doesn't necessarily apply to this year or last night's circumstances.  Too many variable factors to consider such as depth of bench (or lack of it), health, foul trouble, conditioning, gameflow, etc.

What I make of last night and someone earlier mentioned about an NBATV interview is that it's the 2nd game of the season and not all these guys are necessarily in game shape already.  

How many times have we seen guys front-rim shots in these 2 games?  Part of that is conditioning.  Doug Collins touched on it during the Cavs-Celtics game mentioning that guys don't necessarily have their game legs yet.  I totally agree with that.  

When you combine the lack of game legs and the fact that Ray Allen is a shooter, I think you can find the answer to why he was out there so long last night.  He's still trying to find himself and get in a groove and develop his shot.  He's working himself into game shape.  I have no problem with that.  That 2nd half wasn't a tightly contested affair so it was more of a conditioning run-through for Ray.  

I don't think its fair at all to not be alarmed by Ray's minutes these two games and be labeled that "Doc can do no wrong".  To me, last night was about getting in game shape.  So Ray's played 38+ minutes in the first two games?  I'm not alarmed about it.  If we're 20 games in and he's played 15+ @ 38 minutes or more, then I'll say its a concern.  Waaay too early.  I'm not knocking Doc on this yet.