More trouble with Delonte West

[Finkelskyhook]

Wow.

Who the hell would "scheme" to be diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder? Delonte wasn't like, "Ohhh, if I claim to be mentally ill thn maybe I can carry three weapons at once!"

and he wasn't like, "Maybe I can still get paid while I "pretend" to sort my life out! Yeah! Because t hat was I can stop playing the game I love and have dedicated my life to, draw a ton of negative media attention, and have my personal issues exposed to the world! Sick!"

These things are not made up, Who would make them up? An excuse to behave badly? So Delonte is an inherently evil person? Interesting theory...ever met the guy? Ever talked to him?

I think until there are true consequences for his actions we'll never know the answer to any of your questions.  I don't buy the "diagnosis". 

[BballTim]

So your theory is that since some people have a mild (or non-existent) case of something that nobody can have a serious case of it? DO you believe in any types of mental illness at all?

Well, in the case of ADD or ADHD, they have a mild case of normalcy as it is "diagnosed" today.  This "disorder" and how grossly abused it is in order to overmedicate and stigmatize makes me very dubvious of the industry as a whole.  While I'm open to listening to the bipolar discussion, changing the term from manic depressive has only popularized  it with the industry..IMHO, it doesn't make it more real.

  I'm sure you've noticed that there hasn't been a rush of opposition to your stance on ADHD. But I don't see what that has to do with bipolar disorder. The fact that it might be a "scam" doesn't mean that every mental disorder is a scam. And of course changing the name from manic-depressive to bipolar doesn't make it more real. But you're saying that bipolar disorder was basically invented a few decades ago because people hadn't heard of it before them. I'm saying that it was just known by a different name. Are you saying that you'd never heard of manic-depressive before the 80s? It's far from new.

Answer to your last question is yes.  Although I use the school I graduated from as my poster child for a corrupt and overreaching industry.  When I graduated 33 years ago, out of slightly under 2000 students, there were two legally blind students and a fringe part-time teacher in the special education department.  With a slightly lesser student body in the same school today, my sister oversees the same department.  It is 27% of the student body and she oversees a department that has over 20 teachers.  Patently absurd.

  I agree that it's absurd, and the main reason for it is to garner funding from the state or federal govt. When I was a kid I had terrible handwriting. Well, so did my kids, but they called it "fine motor delayed" and had sessions with the special ed teacher to fix it. They did things like cutting out pictures and pasting them and writing. It was silly, but I waw why they were doing it.

  On the other hand, though, it makes sense that there are more people in these programs than there were in the past. First of all, they are better able to control certain disorders with medications. Secondly, back when we were in school, kids that were ever in institutions or special schools never made it back into regular schools like they do now. So I'd say most of it is fluff but not all of it.

[Finkelskyhook]

Excellent post, BballTim.

I heard of manic depressive prior to the 80s.  Changing it's name shouldn't exasterbate it's prevelence a hundred-fold...Thus my dubvious thought process.

I loved your handwriting analogy. 

Great post.

I'll maintain that Delonte's (and maybe Baby's if it is as stated) situations are solved with consequences.  As long as they're paid not to work, they'll have to have character  to change  their behavior.  I don't think meds will make a smidgen of  difference for Delonte...But a few missed paychecks would snap him to...

[The Incredible Hulk]

Cleveland Cavaliers coach Mike Brown says a domestic violence report has been filed against guard Delonte West.

Calls to Cleveland police by The Associated Press were not immediately returned Monday.

West has not appeared in any pre-season games, and Brown has not decided yet whether he will be active for the season opener Tuesday against Boston. He attended the Cavs' practice Monday.

West left the team twice during training camp for personal reasons and has been treated in the past for bipolar disorder. He faces misdemeanour weapons possession charges stemming from a September arrest.

[Jon]

If he isn't part of the Cavs this season, this makes the whole Anthony Parker signing more or less a wash for the Cavs as he simply replaces West.

[Jay G]

delonte needs to chill

[hpantazo]

Excellent post, BballTim.

I heard of manic depressive prior to the 80s.  Changing it's name shouldn't exasterbate it's prevelence a hundred-fold...Thus my dubvious thought process.

I loved your handwriting analogy. 

Great post.

I'll maintain that Delonte's (and maybe Baby's if it is as stated) situations are solved with consequences.  As long as they're paid not to work, they'll have to have character  to change  their behavior.  I don't think meds will make a smidgen of  difference for Delonte...But a few missed paychecks would snap him to...

sorry but changing it's name did not "exacerbate it's prevalence". The prevalence of bipolar disorder hasn't changed in a very, very long time. You should not generalize a few experiences with punks who try to get away with bad behavior to a very well documented mental disorder that has a sound biological and genetic basis. I have seen brain tissue from people with bipolar disorder and there are some very real biological changes, and the people who have it wish they never did. Very few people make up such a diagnosis. Do you think someone like Delonte enjoys wrecking his NBA career and his personal relationships? Because they are both on track to be damaged forever regardless of whether anyone thinks he has bipolar disorder or not. Do you think someone like him enjoys having such a high level of paranoia and persecution mania that he feels the need to carry an arsenal of guns around with him? Believe me, docking him a few paychecks or even his entire contract won't fix anything, lithium and/or valproic acid together with psychotherapy might. The only point that I agree with you on is that someone with a mental disorder shouldn't get paid if they can't work. They should get the same treatment that any average person (non pro-athelete) would get if they were sick or broke a leg or something and couldn't work. You get a certain amount of sick time to recover, and after that time, you don' get paid, and if you do return, your position is not guaranteed, you may be demoted, as would likely be the situation for most of us.

[Neurotic Guy]

I'm not really sure where to begin regarding the generalizations being espoused on this thread.  Let's just say that in an industry (education/ mental health) where I would agree there is over-medication and over-diagnosss, there are 2 extremes which both fail miserably to accurately reflect reality. One is that mental illness and special needs is a sham, and the other is that most of us are mentally ill or have an educational disability.  The truth falls somewhere betweem -- and it is simply faulty logic to suggest that since some folks are prematurely or inaccurately diagnosed, that this means that all folks who are diagnosed are inaccurately diagnosed.  Should we view diagnoses with skepticism? ALWAYS --of course!  Isn't that common sense? But to presume that all diagnoses are false is an equal abusrdity to accepting an expert opinion with no skepticism.

As for ADHD, I will simply suggest that if you haven't seen a severe case of ADHD, then you are probably basing your opinion on a perception that all kids are diagnosed too quckly using minimal data.  While many kids are diagnosed and medicated far too quickly, many parents and teachers work tirelessly to avoid using medication as a treatment (or sole treatment) for a bona fide neurological disorder such as ADHD.  This occurs far more often than you might think.  Also, any educator or mental health provider who jumps to meds for suspected ADD is acting prematurely and unethically, IMO.  Not saying some don't, but saying that there is actually an ethical cadre in the field that some of the comments in this thread seem to want to ignore.

There is a misconception that schools actively promote the identification of chidren with disabilities -- incinuating that educators knowingly falsely identify students in order to garner dollars from the state. You should know first that ethical educators do not allow this to happen. You should also know that the amount allotted per special education student by the state does not come anywhere close to the actual cost to local taxpayers for each special needs student -- there is NOT a viable financial incentive to identify children -- don't believe me do the research and the math. This implies an ethical abomination that I simply do not see in schools I have worked with.  In fact, to the contrary, most shcools seek my consultation in efforts to  reduce referrals to special educaiton.  You can choose not to believe this, but it is true.

There was mention of a school in which 27% of students were identified under special education. I believe you, but know that this is an extremelt high number (way above state and national averages) Typically, I see schools at 13-18% -- and most educators I work with feel concerned that these numbers reflect some over-identification often due to inadequate preventative supports.  But, even still, note that these numbers are not reflecting incidence of mental illness/emotional disturbance where numbers are MUCH lower (1-5%) or ADHD, sometimes identified under special education and sometimes are under a less involved accommodations plan.  The numbers of these students is likely far lower than you think as the majority of chidren who are identified under special ed law are children with mild to moderate learning disabilities, not ADHD.  
Our society is likely over-identifying people with mental illness and mild disabilities and this is not good -- especially if followed with treatments that promote dependence and helplessness.  But, it's also not good to be missing kids with potentially serious problems either.  The optimal falls somewhere between, and is more likely to be achieved when ethical people with sound judgment talk about issues rather than make generalizations and assumptions.  Better to take time to start with the truth and then be open enough to talk through different perceptions and opinions.

[Chris]

Excellent post, BballTim.

I heard of manic depressive prior to the 80s.  Changing it's name shouldn't exasterbate it's prevelence a hundred-fold...Thus my dubvious thought process.

I loved your handwriting analogy. 

Great post.

I'll maintain that Delonte's (and maybe Baby's if it is as stated) situations are solved with consequences.  As long as they're paid not to work, they'll have to have character  to change  their behavior.  I don't think meds will make a smidgen of  difference for Delonte...But a few missed paychecks would snap him to...

While I do agree that we are not doing these guys any favors by making excuses for them, or allowing them to make excuses, I don't see how you have any reason to believe that Delonte is not legitimately struggling with this disease. 

And yes, it absolutely is a disease. 

Now, I agree that you cannot just give someone a pass because they have a disease like this, because all that does is give them less motivation to get the treatment they need to get better, but to infer that all that needs to happen for them to get better is for them to miss a few paychecks is both naive and honestly, pretty offensive. 

Yes, they need to have consequences, but if he does in fact suffer from bipolar disorder, then he also needs treatment.

[fairweatherfan]

LONG POST CUT FOR SPACE

I agree wholeheartedly - there are two extreme views on this, and it seems like all too often people misrepresent the other side as being exclusively one extreme, while ironically advocating the other themselves.  I think this is what's happening in this thread to some extent.  Mental illnesses are to some extent overdiagnosed to the point of being "fad"ish in some circles.  ADHD in particular seems to have become something of a catchall and in some cases veers dangerously close to "syndromizing" normal childhood tendencies.  It really isn't the schools that benefit from this, though, as Neurotic Guy pointed out - it's mostly the doctors and pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest in more people being considered "sick".

BUT, we also are much better at diagnosing and treating the many, many actual cases of mental illness that in past generations would have doomed the afflicted person to a life of maladjustment, social isolation, or institutionalization.  There are countless stories of older folks, including many famous athletes, who struggled mightily in school and only learned in their 40s and 50s that they had been dyslexic all along.

Mental illness doesn't excuse someone like Delonte for his behavior, but it does help us understand why it might happen and deal with it accordingly.  I would say that erring on the side of overdiagnosis is better than erring on the side of underdiagnosis, although we should obviously work to keep mistakes of any kind at a minimum.

[Finkelskyhook]

I've had good and bad experiences in this industry.  I agree with your ethics assertion.  I would contend that the field is presently dominated by the non-ethical. All of these silly overused diagnoses of ADD and ADHD point to that.  I don't see these diagnoses as advances..I see them as crutches, setbacks, and stigmatizing. I believe them to absolutely be financial opportunities for unethical people.

From a personal standpoint, I've seen a close relative sucked into a black hole of a system.  Diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, he was prescribed so many meds when he was living outside of institutions and halfway houses it would be nearly impossible for the meds to be administered properly in the most controlled environment. To ask a mentally ill person to take double-digit meds at prescribed times with successful  intentions is patently silly.  I believe that he became a guinea pig and a permanent institutional figure by design.  In seeing the meds, my sister, a PHD in this field, saw meds to  counteract other meds.  

I believe ADD and ADHD are diagnosed with similar ethics and callousness.  The notion that if we're not always focused we're mentally ill or have a learning disability is silly and dangerous.  The notion that if a child is hyperactive he/she is mentally ill is more dangerous and sillier.  Like Brick said so perfectly, this is clearly a catch-all "condition".  

Maybe I talk in platitudes. But I'm around the effects of the gross overreaching that is ADHD.  I mentor a third grade class and help with students who are behind in reading.  I see ritalin as a substitute for parenting.  I can pick the children out of my class on it blindfolded.  As a rule, they are relatively lethargic and mostly behind. They also gravitate to individual attention because as a rule, they don't get it at home.  They are simply  slower to react.  Very very sad.  

Concerning bipolar. I'm listening to what's being said in here because I don't have the same amount of exposure to people diagnosed with the "condition".  The reason I come to the same conclusion is that I believe it's being diagnosed with the same breakneck speed that ADHD is.  Therefore, I see the same ethics.  

I hope Delonte gets traded to a strong organization.  I think Cleveland has a strong organization.  But I think tolerating the behavior (just the three gun episode) with what appears to be a close team sends the wrong message.  He seems like a good kid.  He needs definite consequences.  

It really isn't the schools that benefit from this, though, as Neurotic Guy pointed out -

I wholeheartedly disagree with that assertion.  But the your post is excellent.  There is a definite financial windfall to public schools with children "afflicted" with this "illness".

[Chris]

I've had good and bad experiences in this industry.  I agree with your ethics assertion.  I would contend that the field is presently dominated by the non-ethical. All of these silly overused diagnoses of ADD and ADHD point to that.  I don't see these diagnoses as advances..I see them as crutches, setbacks, and stigmatizing. I believe them to absolutely be financial opportunities for unethical people.

From a personal standpoint, I've seen a close relative sucked into a black hole of a system.  Diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, he was prescribed so many meds when he was living outside of institutions and halfway houses it would be nearly impossible for the meds to be administered properly in the most controlled environment. To ask a mentally ill person to take double-digit meds at prescribed times with successful  intentions is patently silly.  I believe that he became a guinea pig and a permanent institutional figure by design.  In seeing the meds, my sister, a PHD in this field, saw meds to  counteract other meds.  

I believe ADD and ADHD are diagnosed with similar ethics and callousness.  The notion that if we're not always focused we're mentally ill or have a learning disability is silly and dangerous.  The notion that if a child is hyperactive he/she is mentally ill is more dangerous and sillier.  Like Brick said so perfectly, this is clearly a catch-all "condition".  

Maybe I talk in platitudes. But I'm around the effects of the gross overreaching that is ADHD.  I mentor a third grade class and help with students who are behind in reading.  I see ritalin as a substitute for parenting.  I can pick the children out of my class on it blindfolded.  As a rule, they are relatively lethargic and mostly behind. They also gravitate to individual attention because as a rule, they don't get it at home.  They are simply  slower to react.  Very very sad.  

Concerning bipolar. I'm listening to what's being said in here because I don't have the same amount of exposure to people diagnosed with the "condition".  The reason I come to the same conclusion is that I believe it's being diagnosed with the same breakneck speed that ADHD is.  Therefore, I see the same ethics.  

I hope Delonte gets traded to a strong organization.  I think Cleveland has a strong organization.  But I think tolerating the behavior (just the three gun episode) with what appears to be a close team sends the wrong message.  He seems like a good kid.  He needs definite consequences.  

It really isn't the schools that benefit from this, though, as Neurotic Guy pointed out -

I wholeheartedly disagree with that assertion.  But the your post is excellent.  There is a definite financial windfall to public schools with children "afflicted" with this "illness".

Good post, and I appreciate you explaining yourself, because honestly, I thought you came off as if you had been spending too much time with Tom Cruise before.

You are absolutely right.  The whole mental illness thing has gotten out of control.  Diseases are being over diagnosed, and drugs are being over-prescribed (the same thing is happening in the regular medical community, which is just creating stronger strains of virus's, and people with weaker immune systems that can't deal without drugs).

The problem of course is that we have no clue whether anyone is a legit case, or one of these "new" cases. 

Generally, my response to anything like this is to give them the benefit of the doubt about their "illness" while at the same time not giving them a pass on their actions.

IMO, no one is normal.  We all are dealing with crap that could cause us to do bad things.  But if we are healthy enough to live in society, we need to live by societies rules.  If someone is in such bad shape, then they need to either be taken out of society, or they need to take responsibility for their actions.

[2short]

Bipolar disorder and ADD (or ADHD) are two very different things.  I can assure you that the right medication matters in the case of bipolar disorder. Lithium has been used for years, and it works, although nowadays there are better options.

Medications based on amphetamines (e.g. ritalin or concerta) will NOT work with bipoliar disorder.  In fact they make it much worse.

ADHD is just an invented catchphrase as far as I'm concerned.  It is used as a diagnosis for mild forms of autism and for everything else under the sun, without having any real meaning. If they can't figure out what it is, they call it ADHD.

to elaborate ppdnos is THE catch phrase for the autistic spectrum disorder, showing signs of but not fully diagnosed
adhd is real, very few children who have it need to be or are medicated , those statements are generalizations  and not a good idea to post without research
a child who has adhd CANNOT focus, the child is not being bad etc etc, they need to be retaught / trained to focus in different ways than "normal" children
if children are not given special lessons etc they are far behind when school starts and will end up being poor students etc

[Neurotic Guy]

You are just wrong that there is a financial windfall to schools for overdiagnosis -- you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your facts -- you wrong about this.

Be that is it may, I argue constantly in schools and with parents for using good sense, prevention and extreme caution when it comes to diagnosis and medication.  It is an abonimnation when children are inaccurately diagnosed and prematurely or improperly medicated.  But your statement that you can 'pick em out blindfolded' is an insult to those who spend lifetimes trying to understand the nuances of neurological and mental disorders and work tirelessly to effect the most positive results from the least invasive interventions. Your opinion seems to be that parents, educators and mental health professionals are patently unethical.  I'm not saying that there are no unethical folks in schools and MH centers, I'd even agree that there are too many, however, you seem convinced that a lack of ethics is the norm.  I simply don't see it and don't buy it.

Your statements are an insult to parents.  Ritalin is simply not effective enough to solve problems resulting from bad parenting.  There are many parents who work their tails off to parent and care for their children, only to find that their children are still faiing.  While many parents need to improve their skills, some parents actually need your understanding rather than your disdain. Regarding your statement that the education/MH field is dominated by the non-ethical all I can say is that I have the perspective of having worked with hundreds of schools and thousands of teachers and while I have my issues with the quality of instruction and the organization of systems, I certainly do not feel there is a dearth of ethical conduct.  But, that's my opinion.

You point out yourself the folly of comparing ADD/HD with Bi-Polar disorder.  You say you have witnessed a boom in diagnosis of ADHD and rest on the assumption that all children have been misdiagnosed.  From there, you cite the perception that there is a boom in bi-polar disorder and therefore feel it follows that all these must be misdiagnosed.  If I am following your logic correctly, let me just say that I don't follow your logic.

Lastly, I am sorry that you had a relative mistreated and perhaps mis-diagnosed for shizophrenia.  It sounds horrible and I don't blame you for anger around this.  I also can understand that when you see in front of you a child who you think is inaccurately diagnosed and improperly medicated, it is horrible.  But I'll throw out there that it may be true regarding the children that you don't know all there is to know about the child, their history, their diagnosis, or their current plan for treatment.  Also, I'll suggest that there are other children and other adults who you don't know, who have been, or are currently being treated successfully with medications (and/or  other mental health interventions) and you don't know because they are not telling you.  I'll share with you that my mother -- who is 82 and was unable to leave her home for 6 months -- has now resumed her life due to the correct medication.  

 I am your age-ish (51), Finkelskyhook, and you and I can probably share many things in common about our childhood experiences that differ from today's world.  We'll be better off discovering the things we have in common  because I can see that you give a [dang] about the kids you mentor and we love the Celts -- there is probably a good deal of good, bad, right and wrong in both of us.




 

[fairweatherfan]

It really isn't the schools that benefit from this, though, as Neurotic Guy pointed out -

I wholeheartedly disagree with that assertion.  But the your post is excellent.  There is a definite financial windfall to public schools with children "afflicted" with this "illness".

Well, students who are, rightly or wrongly, diagnosed with a learning disability or mental illness require more resources and more attention.  If, as Neurotic Guy says, the additional funding allotted to schools for these students is less than the average added cost of caring for them, where's the incentive?  They get more total funding, sure, but on balance they're running a deficit that must be made up by funneling money from other areas.

I guess it hinges on how much money you think schools are receiving for these students, vs how much it costs.  NG seems to have direct experience with these issues, so I'm inclined to trust his word.