More trouble with Delonte West

[BballTim]

Sad really. Just read the story about Pierce talking about Antoine Walker and how things have backslid for him so far and it's clear now West is right behind him. At this point West makes Tony Allen look like Ray Allen. I wouldn't touch Delonte with a 10 foot pole right now.

apples and oranges. One seems to have made poor financial decisions, one has a medical condition.

I like them both, but other than being ex-celtics, they don't share much in common.

Sorry, but Delonte has made a lot of bad decisions lately.  Illness doesn't excuse his poor decisions.  Wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole as someone else said here.  I know people with his disorders (as I'm probably sure you do too) and they don't make poor decisions like Delonte has.

  This is kind of like saying that I know a few people who have survived cancer so nobody should ever die of it.

No it's not. 

Seems that every time Delonte does something stupid or makes a poor decision, people here blame it on bipolar.  So I guess everyone who makes poor decisions should be checked for that illness too.  Sometimes people just make bad decisions, doesn't mean he made the poor decision because he's bipolar.  Maybe he's just not that smart, which I have suspected for some time.

  Maybe you're right, he's not that smart. Maybe his condidtion had nothing at all to do with his decisions. I don't know one way or the other. But saying that you know his decision making is unrelated to his mental condidion is ridiculous, and it's exactly like saying that nobody with cancer should fare any worse than people you know with cancer. Aside from the fact that people (obviously) have the illness to varying degrees, it's not like a physical illness where people have similar symptoms or quantifiable characteristics.

[2short]

what kind of bi polar disorder does delonte have?

Somebody please enlighten me...There are variations of this "disorder"?  So could that be like tri-polar?  Quad-polar?  Polar-squared? 

Whenever the incredibly corrupt mental health (oxymoron) industry has a slow period, all of these imaginary "disorders" come in to save the day for them.

ADD...ADHD...Bi-Polar...Stop making excuses for people to do bad things...

Having said that....Roy Hobbs is the voice of reason here...I wouldn't assume that Delonte did anything wrong here.

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

Bipolar people can lose control of themselves during their "manic" periods. This often results in severe anger and other inappropriate behavior.

One thing I do know is that he needs a psychopharmacologist-- a really good one. Either he isn't taking his meds or they aren't working.

this about hits it on the head, if he isn't taking his meds he'll be loosing control of himself in one way or the other
I do find it hard to believe he can be medicated and playing prof. bb

[MaineBleedsGreen]

what kind of bi polar disorder does delonte have?

Somebody please enlighten me...There are variations of this "disorder"?  So could that be like tri-polar?  Quad-polar?  Polar-squared? 

Whenever the incredibly corrupt mental health (oxymoron) industry has a slow period, all of these imaginary "disorders" come in to save the day for them.

ADD...ADHD...Bi-Polar...Stop making excuses for people to do bad things...

Having said that....Roy Hobbs is the voice of reason here...I wouldn't assume that Delonte did anything wrong here.

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

Bipolar people can lose control of themselves during their "manic" periods. This often results in severe anger and other inappropriate behavior.

One thing I do know is that he needs a psychopharmacologist-- a really good one. Either he isn't taking his meds or they aren't working.

this about hits it on the head, if he isn't taking his meds he'll be loosing control of himself in one way or the other
I do find it hard to believe he can be medicated and playing prof. bb

One of my best friends from College was bi-polar. I lived with him a total of 3 1/2 years both in school and out of school. I have a pretty good first hand account of how this disease can affect people. Whether or not this can apply directly to Delonte's case I can't say...

People who are bi-polar spend a lot more time at the emotional extremes, they tend to deviate from what would be considered a "normal" range. One thing that is extremely common is for people who are bi-polar to stop taking their meds when they are on a high. And inevitably, both because they have stopped taking their meds, and because their body naturally undulates between the two extremes, these periods are always followed by an extreme "low". This generally will happen whether they are taking their meds or not, but if they have stopped taking their meds, then this low can become pretty bad. In Delonte's case he even admitted that he had stopped taking his meds, so it seems pretty clear that's what happened.

It doesn't make his actions right or wrong, and I agree he needs to be held responsible for himself no matter what, but it is a lot more complicated then "getting the right help" and "having the right people around you". I think for people suffering with being bi-polar management of the disease can become exhausting. I know for my roommate one of the best things for him was to maintain a pretty rigid schedule, which included going to the gym 6 days a week. It gave him energy, kept him positive, and provided a sense of stability in his life. Having had this experience with my roommmate its easy for me to understand how the off-season could be especially hard for Delonte. I'm sure during the season he is able to manage his condition much better, then he is then during the offseason, because he will be kept on a consistent schedule and have that "stability" he might be lacking in his life away from basketball.

Either way it's a sad story. You hate to see anybody suffer from something that may, in a way (but not in an absolute way), contribute to their poor decision making.

[HomeRunBaker]

Sad really. Just read the story about Pierce talking about Antoine Walker and how things have backslid for him so far and it's clear now West is right behind him. At this point West makes Tony Allen look like Ray Allen. I wouldn't touch Delonte with a 10 foot pole right now.

apples and oranges. One seems to have made poor financial decisions, one has a medical condition.

I like them both, but other than being ex-celtics, they don't share much in common.

Sorry, but Delonte has made a lot of bad decisions lately.  Illness doesn't excuse his poor decisions.  Wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole as someone else said here.  I know people with his disorders (as I'm probably sure you do too) and they don't make poor decisions like Delonte has.

  This is kind of like saying that I know a few people who have survived cancer so nobody should ever die of it.

No it's not. 

Seems that every time Delonte does something stupid or makes a poor decision, people here blame it on bipolar.  So I guess everyone who makes poor decisions should be checked for that illness too.  Sometimes people just make bad decisions, doesn't mean he made the poor decision because he's bipolar.  Maybe he's just not that smart, which I have suspected for some time.

  Maybe you're right, he's not that smart. Maybe his condidtion had nothing at all to do with his decisions. I don't know one way or the other. But saying that you know his decision making is unrelated to his mental condidion is ridiculous, and it's exactly like saying that nobody with cancer should fare any worse than people you know with cancer. Aside from the fact that people (obviously) have the illness to varying degrees, it's not like a physical illness where people have similar symptoms or quantifiable characteristics.

Two things we know for certain.  West has a mental disorder and that he has made some terrible decisions over the past month.  Regardless of the cause of his irrational behavior he is buyer beware these days and is on the verge of throwing his NBA career away (and possibly his life) until he gets help in addressing his problems.

[Finkelskyhook]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

[Jon Niednagel]

what kind of bi polar disorder does delonte have?

Somebody please enlighten me...There are variations of this "disorder"?  So could that be like tri-polar?  Quad-polar?  Polar-squared? 

Whenever the incredibly corrupt mental health (oxymoron) industry has a slow period, all of these imaginary "disorders" come in to save the day for them.

ADD...ADHD...Bi-Polar...Stop making excuses for people to do bad things...

Having said that....Roy Hobbs is the voice of reason here...I wouldn't assume that Delonte did anything wrong here.

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

Bipolar people can lose control of themselves during their "manic" periods. This often results in severe anger and other inappropriate behavior.

One thing I do know is that he needs a psychopharmacologist-- a really good one. Either he isn't taking his meds or they aren't working.

this about hits it on the head, if he isn't taking his meds he'll be loosing control of himself in one way or the other
I do find it hard to believe he can be medicated and playing prof. bb

You and Brick seem to have a pretty good handle on bipolar disorder. I only differ with Brick, in that I believe West could benefit from a good psychiatrist just as easily as a psychopharmacologist. Regardless, the point is meds are invaluable in treating the disease. In fact, medications are the only empirically validated way to treat bipolar disorder. That is not to say people with bipolar can't benefit from therapy, but therapy won't control the cyclical nature of the disease.
As far as the question pertaining to variations of bipolar disorder, there are categories to some extent but these are based on severity of symptoms.  Bipolar I necessitates a full manic episode at some point in the person’s history while Bipolar II can be diagnosed with just a hypomanic episode (doesn’t meet full diagnostic criteria for mania). There is also cyclothymia, which is a more subtle, less phasic, and more chronic hypomanic characteristic or trait.
One thing I would like to mention is that bipolar disorder is considered a mood disorder, not a thought disorder like schizophrenia. The two are not the same. You can have both (schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type), but one is not a form of the other. West is not schizophrenic, but it is possible that he became temporarily psychotic with delusions or ideas of reference during a manic (or depressive) episode.
As far as responsibility for his behavior goes, I think most laws agree that people with mental disorders are responsible for their own actions unless they are operating under the influence of a delusion that interferes with their capacity to understand right from wrong. For example, Delonte could be found not guilty by reason of insanity on those gun charges if he could successfully argue that he was carrying the weapons because he believed at the time that he needed to protect the president from aliens. If his delusion was such that he could not distinguish right from wrong, then his thoughts, decisions, rationale, and behavior can be attributed to the mental disorder. On the other hand, even if he was manic, if he took the guns with him for protection even though he knew it was illegal and he would be arrested if caught, then his mental disorder is beside the point and it was a poor personal decision. In other words, if he knew right from wrong then he is accountable and his disease can’t be held accountable for his bad decision making.

[hpantazo]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

bipolar disorder is a very real and debilitating disorder and ADHD is very real as well (although not as debilitating). I really hope no one close to you gets either of these disorders because you seem to have no understanding of them and a very uneducated and biased opinion of them.

[Finkelskyhook]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

bipolar disorder is a very real and debilitating disorder and ADHD is very real as well (although not as debilitating). I really hope no one close to you gets either of these disorders because you seem to have no understanding of them and a very uneducated and biased opinion of them.

There are people close to me "afflicted" with both of these "disorders".  I see no difference whatsoever between the person "diagnosed" with bipolar pre or post meds...Extreme mood swings and tempermental...Problem:  She gets away with it.  It's rationalized with a "disorder"

Several of my cousins have showed horribly poor judgement in substituting ritalin for dicipline with their children for what should be called "normal child disorder".  Unfortunately, the ritalin works...So their children will reach only a portion of their potential..But, I guess, they behave in their stupors....And as an added benefit, a bunch of crooked "doctors" have lifelong income.

I would have been the poster boy for "ADHD" according to the way it's "diagnosed" today.  I had an honest therapist in 1971.  Gave my parents placebos to "calm me down"  Was every bit as effective as ritalin..Except I wasn't a zombie...Today, I'd be a drug addict for a non-existent condition.  Kids are supposed to be active. 

In as much as the two "disorders" became prominent in this crooked industry about the same time, I don't buy either one of them.

Delonte will keep getting paid so why should he change his behavior?  Sad. 

[BballTim]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

  You've never heard the term "manic-depressive"? This isn't something new (like adhd)...

[Jon Niednagel]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

People knew bipolar disorder very well a few decades back. They just referred to it as manic-depression.

Despite what you think, ADHD and bipolar disorder are not the same. However, first-degree relatives of people with bipolar disorder are slightly more at risk to be diagnosed with ADHD than the general public. In my opinion, I think there is a good chance that the attention problems in first-degree relatives represent a prodrome of bipolar rather than classic ADHD. That said, ADHD is just as real as the H1N1 flu. Also, ADHD was present in the past. People just didn't understand the neurological underpinnings of the behavior at the time. They just assumed kids were lazy or out of control, and just needed a good smack. These kids typically failed at school, got in legal trouble, and outcomes were poor regardless of socioeconomic status or parental style. The understanding of ADHD now represents advancement in knowledge. ADHD was not created as an excuse for poor behavior or a way to scheme money out of the unsuspecting. The literature clearly demonstrates the base-rate in the population is 8-10% (across developed and non-developed countries), and the efficacy of medication in this disorder is better than any other disorder. This is why medications are recommended as the front-line treatment. In all 50 States, the base-rate of children being treated with medication for ADHD is 5-8%. This suggests that, if anything, ADHD is actually under-treated. The medications don't make you a zombie either, and they are not addicting. That is just silly talk.  

[Brickowski]

Bipolar disorder and ADD (or ADHD) are two very different things.  I can assure you that the right medication matters in the case of bipolar disorder. Lithium has been used for years, and it works, although nowadays there are better options.

Medications based on amphetamines (e.g. ritalin or concerta) will NOT work with bipoliar disorder.  In fact they make it much worse.

ADHD is just an invented catchphrase as far as I'm concerned.  It is used as a diagnosis for mild forms of autism and for everything else under the sun, without having any real meaning. If they can't figure out what it is, they call it ADHD.

[BballTim]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

bipolar disorder is a very real and debilitating disorder and ADHD is very real as well (although not as debilitating). I really hope no one close to you gets either of these disorders because you seem to have no understanding of them and a very uneducated and biased opinion of them.

There are people close to me "afflicted" with both of these "disorders".  I see no difference whatsoever between the person "diagnosed" with bipolar pre or post meds...Extreme mood swings and tempermental...Problem:  She gets away with it.  It's rationalized with a "disorder"

Several of my cousins have showed horribly poor judgement in substituting ritalin for dicipline with their children for what should be called "normal child disorder".  Unfortunately, the ritalin works...So their children will reach only a portion of their potential..But, I guess, they behave in their stupors....And as an added benefit, a bunch of crooked "doctors" have lifelong income.

I would have been the poster boy for "ADHD" according to the way it's "diagnosed" today.  I had an honest therapist in 1971.  Gave my parents placebos to "calm me down"  Was every bit as effective as ritalin..Except I wasn't a zombie...Today, I'd be a drug addict for a non-existent condition.  Kids are supposed to be active. 

In as much as the two "disorders" became prominent in this crooked industry about the same time, I don't buy either one of them.

Delonte will keep getting paid so why should he change his behavior?  Sad. 

  So your theory is that since some people have a mild (or non-existent) case of something that nobody can have a serious case of it? DO you believe in any types of mental illness at all?

[Spilling Green Dye]

Ok, then my question is this:  Would you want Delonte back on this team?

I personally say 'no'. 

[Finkelskyhook]

Bipolar disorder and ADD (or ADHD) are two very different things.  I can assure you that the right medication matters in the case of bipolar disorder. Lithium has been used for years, and it works, although nowadays there are better options.

Medications based on amphetamines (e.g. ritalin or concerta) will NOT work with bipoliar disorder.  In fact they make it much worse.

ADHD is just an invented catchphrase as far as I'm concerned.  It is used as a diagnosis for mild forms of autism and for everything else under the sun, without having any real meaning. If they can't figure out what it is, they call it ADHD.

[/b]

Brick, we don't always agree, but I love your plain, blunt explanations for your positions...That is a perfect dissertation of ADHD.  


So your theory is that since some people have a mild (or non-existent) case of something that nobody can have a serious case of it? DO you believe in any types of mental illness at all?

Well, in the case of ADD or ADHD, they have a mild case of normalcy as it is "diagnosed" today.  This "disorder" and how grossly abused it is in order to overmedicate and stigmatize makes me very dubvious of the industry as a whole.  While I'm open to listening to the bipolar discussion, changing the term from manic depressive has only popularized  it with the industry..IMHO, it doesn't make it more real.

Answer to your last question is yes.  Although I use the school I graduated from as my poster child for a corrupt and overreaching industry.  When I graduated 33 years ago, out of slightly under 2000 students, there were two legally blind students and a fringe part-time teacher in the special education department.  With a slightly lesser student body in the same school today, my sister oversees the same department.  It is 27% of the student body and she oversees a department that has over 20 teachers.  Patently absurd.

You can write a lot of this off to the increase of one-parent families and government taking the father out of the family via the welfare system.  But the industry is grossly overreaching and corrupt.

I hope the Cavs and Delonte are smart enough to to get too caught up in it.  Fine him suspend him without pay and watch his behavior change.

Ok, then my question is this:  Would you want Delonte back on this team?

I personally say 'no'. 

On the Cavs, no.  I think it sends a horrible message to a cohesive team.  Delonte will need a fresh start with another team.  Spurs, Jazz, etc.  A team with a strong head coach and/or a strong veteran presence.

[Rondo_is_better]

you writing this means you have no concept of what bipolar disorder is 
it is not an excuse, trust me

You're right.  I don't....And I wonder how many other people knew this "disorder" existed a few decades back.  Or the bigger joke in this industry...ADD and ADHD.  Through this fraud, we're taking innocent children and turning them into zombies and lifelong drug addicts. Ritalin becomes the replacement for parenting....And an excuse.

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Since bipolar became prevelent about the same time as ADD and all of the ridiculous variations of that fraudulent "disorder"...Well...

Delonte needs to get his act together.  Every professional sports contract should come with a behavioral clause.  I like Delonte.  But he shouldn't be getting paid if he's not with the team.

Again, having said all that, there is no conviction here.

bipolar disorder is a very real and debilitating disorder and ADHD is very real as well (although not as debilitating). I really hope no one close to you gets either of these disorders because you seem to have no understanding of them and a very uneducated and biased opinion of them.

There are people close to me "afflicted" with both of these "disorders".  I see no difference whatsoever between the person "diagnosed" with bipolar pre or post meds...Extreme mood swings and tempermental...Problem:  She gets away with it.  It's rationalized with a "disorder"

Several of my cousins have showed horribly poor judgement in substituting ritalin for dicipline with their children for what should be called "normal child disorder".  Unfortunately, the ritalin works...So their children will reach only a portion of their potential..But, I guess, they behave in their stupors....And as an added benefit, a bunch of crooked "doctors" have lifelong income.

I would have been the poster boy for "ADHD" according to the way it's "diagnosed" today.  I had an honest therapist in 1971.  Gave my parents placebos to "calm me down"  Was every bit as effective as ritalin..Except I wasn't a zombie...Today, I'd be a drug addict for a non-existent condition.  Kids are supposed to be active. 

In as much as the two "disorders" became prominent in this crooked industry about the same time, I don't buy either one of them.

Delonte will keep getting paid so why should he change his behavior?  Sad. 

Wow.

Who the hell would "scheme" to be diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder? Delonte wasn't like, "Ohhh, if I claim to be mentally ill thn maybe I can carry three weapons at once!"

and he wasn't like, "Maybe I can still get paid while I "pretend" to sort my life out! Yeah! Because t hat was I can stop playing the game I love and have dedicated my life to, draw a ton of negative media attention, and have my personal issues exposed to the world! Sick!"

These things are not made up, Who would make them up? An excuse to behave badly? So Delonte is an inherently evil person? Interesting theory...ever met the guy? Ever talked to him?