Author Topic: Baby = Problem....  (Read 16550 times)

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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2009, 03:59:22 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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The quote I was probably most concerned with was this one:

Quote
“I don’t know how to accept that yet,” he said. “I don’t know how to do it yet. It’s not as if we’ve gone over it. Nobody tells me nothing.”

Now, BBD should have understood what his role would be, since he signed after Rasheed did.  Still, if he wants to understand his role, it probably makes sense for somebody from the coaching staff to step in and do so shortly.  It sounds like BBD is a little upset, which can easily turn into resentment and anger.

  Which, as we now know, leads to player-only meetings on planes and silent bus rides...

Why should the players be sorting out what BBD's role is?  This is a matter for the coaching staff, primarily; I doubt BBD is upset because Rasheed and KG haven't told him what his role will be.

  I was kidding. But look at what he said. He was asked about how to accept a smaller role on the team and said that he doesn't know how to accept it yet, and nobody (that's gone through that) has talked to him about how to make that adjustment. Seems innocuous.

  Oddly enough, are there any players on the team that COULD tell him how to do it? Wallace and Daniels are going through it with him. Cassell could have, or maybe Posey. Lue (coach) probably could.

It's a bit hard to get the correct context of the quote. Some see it as "I don't know how to accept a smaller role because no one has explained to me how to accept a smaller role" and some see it as "No one has told me what my smaller role actually is, so I don't know how to deal with it yet, process it, etc."

True.  I think it's the "Nobody tells me nothing." line that really stands out to me.  That doesn't sound like a player who is happy with the status quo as it exists.

The more I read that though, the more I wish it was on video though.  I think there is a good chance that it was actually said in jest.  Because the way I think we are reading it right now, it really comes across as incredibly bitter, and he would likely have had to have been in a pretty terrible mood to actually say that to the press.

You're right, it's hard to say.  I respect Mark Murphy enough as a journalist, though, to think that he wouldn't have printed something as serious that was intended as a joke.

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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2009, 03:59:57 PM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

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Roy, that quote you referenced was the only one I was remotely concerned about too.

Again, this team is a championship caliber team.  Do you really think the direction of it could be compromised by 1 BBD?  No.  It'll work itself out, and hopefully the media doesn't stir up anything that isn't really there.

Having said that I feel confident to say that there IS at least something there behind BBD.  It's part "passion", part "immaturity", and part "self over-valuing".  The passion is good, the immaturity will improve with time, but I was hoping the free agent market would sober BBD up to his actual current value and role.  Unfortunately I don't think it did.. it just made him more frustrated.

I wouldn't be surprised if that frustration boils over during the season at some point, but nonetheless it shouldn't stop the Celtic juggernaut.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2009, 04:10:46 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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We don't want our players being HONEST with the media. We want them to be good little soldiers and talk the party line because that is what is best for the Celtics. Causing disruption due to comments to the media for selfish reasons is not how you win championships, no matter how small. If he had made the right comment then this thing would be put to bed. It will be real easy for a reporter later in the season if he has a few games of DNP's or small minutes to bring this up again trying to make a big thing out of a small thing. If the Celtics win a championship this year I don't CARE whether he plays even one minute. It's not about him. His response was about HIM.

Okay, you stand on the side of Falseness.  That's your choice.  I'll stand with Truth.  The funny thing is, the people standing on the side of Falseness (advocating a politically correct non-answer) are the same ones claiming this is a 'disruption' and worrying about the 'distractions' it'll cause.  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies.

You can be truthful and stay faithful to the team.  Those two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.  Baby's response was about him, because the question was about him and how he's fitting into the larger team fabric.  And don't forget his answer--he said it will be a struggle going from starter's minutes to reserve minutes, but that it was great to be a part of a great team.  That sounds like a honest man who knows his sacrifice will be as great as his reward. 

This all boils down to emotions and honesty.  Baby's an emotional player and he uses that emotion to give him an edge over his opponents.  But the thing with emotions is that if you have them and don't express them, they begin to exert control over you.  That's where honesty comes in.  If you're an emotional person, you need to be honest about them when you have them.  Baby recognizes the pull between individual glory and team success; he recognizes his desire to be a star, and his desire to be a part of something greater than himself and so by expressing those honest, personal emotions, he's able to control them and funnel them to use in a team context.  If you listen to KG (another player who relies on his emotions for his 'edge'), you'll hear the same dichotomy.

I like how we stand on the side of truth and want 100% complete honesty our of our 3rd string backup PF/C however we don't expect the same thing out of the President of the United States… I know that's a different thread, however it is related.

I don't want BBD to lie to the media. I want him to avoid the question and what I said he ought to have responded with was exactly that. If pushed he needed to have walked away.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »

Offline satch

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This may not be popular but I agree with Big Baby. I think he can play and could be a starter. I thought KG was out of line last year when he reprimanded Baby. That's Doc's job. That being said Baby must keep his weight under control to reach his potential.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2009, 04:32:44 PM »

Offline ben

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I still don't understand why the celtics offered Davis any more than the qualifying offer if davis wasn't getting offers from other teams.  Why are we paying him more than we have to?

Not getting offers, and not getting the offers he wanted are not the same thing. Plus we got him for 2 years... avoiding doing this dance once again next year.

We could have signed both powe and baby for the price we payed for baby.  that would be sweet.

The C's didn't want a broken down powe.  Is this June?

Well, apparently a broken down powe is good enough for Cleveland.  I also remember articles about how the Celtics wanted to sign powe, but the cavs got to him before the celtics did and Powe gave the cavs his word to sign with them, not knowing the celtics were interested.    

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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This may not be popular but I agree with Big Baby. I think he can play and could be a starter. I thought KG was out of line last year when he reprimanded Baby. That's Doc's job. That being said Baby must keep his weight under control to reach his potential.

He can definitely play, but I'm not sure about being a starter.  He's certainly not better than any of our top three big men, and I don't think he'd make the top two on most teams.

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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2009, 04:43:48 PM »

Offline the_Bird

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BBD could be a starter on a decent squad if he could grab a rebound.  He's far, far too weak on the glass to be a legit starter at the PF spot.  Guys with big holes in their game tend to be bench players; Eddie House is a point guard who can't dribble and Quisy's a shooting guard who can't shoot, those being just two easy examples.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2009, 04:49:26 PM »

Offline satch

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Big Baby is young, agresssive and could be a leader. I'm not penciling him in for the Hall of Fame but over the course of the year he has a young man's advantage.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2009, 04:51:44 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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We don't want our players being HONEST with the media. We want them to be good little soldiers and talk the party line because that is what is best for the Celtics. Causing disruption due to comments to the media for selfish reasons is not how you win championships, no matter how small. If he had made the right comment then this thing would be put to bed. It will be real easy for a reporter later in the season if he has a few games of DNP's or small minutes to bring this up again trying to make a big thing out of a small thing. If the Celtics win a championship this year I don't CARE whether he plays even one minute. It's not about him. His response was about HIM.

Okay, you stand on the side of Falseness.  That's your choice.  I'll stand with Truth.  The funny thing is, the people standing on the side of Falseness (advocating a politically correct non-answer) are the same ones claiming this is a 'disruption' and worrying about the 'distractions' it'll cause.  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies.

You can be truthful and stay faithful to the team.  Those two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.  Baby's response was about him, because the question was about him and how he's fitting into the larger team fabric.  And don't forget his answer--he said it will be a struggle going from starter's minutes to reserve minutes, but that it was great to be a part of a great team.  That sounds like a honest man who knows his sacrifice will be as great as his reward. 

This all boils down to emotions and honesty.  Baby's an emotional player and he uses that emotion to give him an edge over his opponents.  But the thing with emotions is that if you have them and don't express them, they begin to exert control over you.  That's where honesty comes in.  If you're an emotional person, you need to be honest about them when you have them.  Baby recognizes the pull between individual glory and team success; he recognizes his desire to be a star, and his desire to be a part of something greater than himself and so by expressing those honest, personal emotions, he's able to control them and funnel them to use in a team context.  If you listen to KG (another player who relies on his emotions for his 'edge'), you'll hear the same dichotomy.

I like how we stand on the side of truth and want 100% complete honesty our of our 3rd string backup PF/C however we don't expect the same thing out of the President of the United States… I know that's a different thread, however it is related.

This isn't the appropriate forum for that topic, EJ.  Let's just say that I appreciate honesty across the board, yet I'm not naive enough to expect it in politics--because politics is a game of subtle manipulation where honesty is but one means of getting what you want.  But, just like in poker, there's no sense in ever showing your cards.  Like any game, there's no morality--it's all about results.  Just like I don't expect Doc to be 'honest' and tell us his game plan before the game happens, I don't expect Obama to come out and tell us what he really wants before he gets it.

I don't want BBD to lie to the media. I want him to avoid the question and what I said he ought to have responded with was exactly that. If pushed he needed to have walked away.

Yeah, but you don't want Baby to be honest either.  I think your problem is that you expect some kind of military-style toe-the-line attitude from the players.  But they're not robots, or even soldiers.  Especially in the case of Baby (and other emotional players), I don't know how you can expect them to turn on and off their emotions, expecting them to act like robots off the court, yet wanting them completely different on the court.

Further, what he actually said wasn't that [dang]ing, or surprising, or even potentially divisive to the team as a whole.  You warn us about 'distractions' and those who want to 'make a story out of this,' but in reality you're warning us about guys like yourself, guys that find fault and distraction and big stories every time someone has the gall to shown an ounce of humanity.  Baby opened up about his inner struggle to put team ahead of the individual (a struggle he's overcome about 99% of the time), and now he's taking heat for actually putting himself before the team. 

It's because of people that extrapolate bad motive from innocent displays of human uncertainty that we've increasingly moved to a say-nothing, politically correct society of emotionally repressed automatons.  If we all grew up just a little, maybe we'd learn to embrace the ambiguity inherent in life, instead of trying to extinguish it at the expense of the very things that make us human.
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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2009, 04:53:53 PM »

Offline KungPoweChicken

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Davis needs to realize that he is a role player and nothing more.

Davis isn't good enough to start for one NBA team at the power forward position.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2009, 05:00:58 PM »

Offline Bahku

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This may not be popular but I agree with Big Baby. I think he can play and could be a starter. I thought KG was out of line last year when he reprimanded Baby. That's Doc's job. That being said Baby must keep his weight under control to reach his potential.

Actually, I think BBD looks up to KG as much as he does Doc, and while I agree that the majority of the coaching should be done by the coaching staff, KG and Paul are emotional leaders of this team, and while it may have been excessive, that kind of intensity is what you get with Ticket. I think KG saw that something extra was needed to reach Big Baby in that instance, and that BBD may not have responded as readily if that had come from Doc. As far as being a starter, Davis could definitely be a starter ... if 3 or 4 other players got injured, (or on a team like the T-Wolves). I love the kid and his effort, but no way has he come close to earning a starting role on this team ... he always gives 110%, but emotionally he's got a lot of growing up to do ... and this whole thing is a perfect example.
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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2009, 05:21:34 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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We don't want our players being HONEST with the media. We want them to be good little soldiers and talk the party line because that is what is best for the Celtics. Causing disruption due to comments to the media for selfish reasons is not how you win championships, no matter how small. If he had made the right comment then this thing would be put to bed. It will be real easy for a reporter later in the season if he has a few games of DNP's or small minutes to bring this up again trying to make a big thing out of a small thing. If the Celtics win a championship this year I don't CARE whether he plays even one minute. It's not about him. His response was about HIM.

Okay, you stand on the side of Falseness.  That's your choice.  I'll stand with Truth.  The funny thing is, the people standing on the side of Falseness (advocating a politically correct non-answer) are the same ones claiming this is a 'disruption' and worrying about the 'distractions' it'll cause.  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies.

You can be truthful and stay faithful to the team.  Those two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.  Baby's response was about him, because the question was about him and how he's fitting into the larger team fabric.  And don't forget his answer--he said it will be a struggle going from starter's minutes to reserve minutes, but that it was great to be a part of a great team.  That sounds like a honest man who knows his sacrifice will be as great as his reward. 

This all boils down to emotions and honesty.  Baby's an emotional player and he uses that emotion to give him an edge over his opponents.  But the thing with emotions is that if you have them and don't express them, they begin to exert control over you.  That's where honesty comes in.  If you're an emotional person, you need to be honest about them when you have them.  Baby recognizes the pull between individual glory and team success; he recognizes his desire to be a star, and his desire to be a part of something greater than himself and so by expressing those honest, personal emotions, he's able to control them and funnel them to use in a team context.  If you listen to KG (another player who relies on his emotions for his 'edge'), you'll hear the same dichotomy.

I like how we stand on the side of truth and want 100% complete honesty our of our 3rd string backup PF/C however we don't expect the same thing out of the President of the United States… I know that's a different thread, however it is related.

This isn't the appropriate forum for that topic, EJ.  Let's just say that I appreciate honesty across the board, yet I'm not naive enough to expect it in politics--because politics is a game of subtle manipulation where honesty is but one means of getting what you want.  But, just like in poker, there's no sense in ever showing your cards.  Like any game, there's no morality--it's all about results.  Just like I don't expect Doc to be 'honest' and tell us his game plan before the game happens, I don't expect Obama to come out and tell us what he really wants before he gets it.

I don't want BBD to lie to the media. I want him to avoid the question and what I said he ought to have responded with was exactly that. If pushed he needed to have walked away.

Yeah, but you don't want Baby to be honest either.  I think your problem is that you expect some kind of military-style toe-the-line attitude from the players.  But they're not robots, or even soldiers.  Especially in the case of Baby (and other emotional players), I don't know how you can expect them to turn on and off their emotions, expecting them to act like robots off the court, yet wanting them completely different on the court.

Further, what he actually said wasn't that [dang]ing, or surprising, or even potentially divisive to the team as a whole.  You warn us about 'distractions' and those who want to 'make a story out of this,' but in reality you're warning us about guys like yourself, guys that find fault and distraction and big stories every time someone has the gall to shown an ounce of humanity.  Baby opened up about his inner struggle to put team ahead of the individual (a struggle he's overcome about 99% of the time), and now he's taking heat for actually putting himself before the team. 

It's because of people that extrapolate bad motive from innocent displays of human uncertainty that we've increasingly moved to a say-nothing, politically correct society of emotionally repressed automatons.  If we all grew up just a little, maybe we'd learn to embrace the ambiguity inherent in life, instead of trying to extinguish it at the expense of the very things that make us human.

Which is exactly why I said that this was more for a different thread, however I DO find it appropriate. You are putting yourself out there as "high and mighty" requiring perfect honesty in all things however every time you post in a political thread you dismiss people being upset at half truths and outright lies from our most important leaders. You can't have it both ways.

Your labeling my words as standing on the side of  falseness is definitely drawing a huge stretch of a conclusion. It was also untrue. Let me state this simpler so you can understand where I stand:

I think BBD shouldn't answer that question at all if he can't honestly answer it as a team player. If he doesn't feel that way then he should shut up. If he doesn't feel that way then we should be nervous that, like Starbury did, he may not stay the good little soldier. (fortunately Starbury waited until after the season to lose it) He better deal with it because unless there is an injury he will be dealing with this until his contract expires or he is traded.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2009, 05:29:32 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The quote I was probably most concerned with was this one:

Quote
“I don’t know how to accept that yet,” he said. “I don’t know how to do it yet. It’s not as if we’ve gone over it. Nobody tells me nothing.”

Now, BBD should have understood what his role would be, since he signed after Rasheed did.  Still, if he wants to understand his role, it probably makes sense for somebody from the coaching staff to step in and do so shortly.  It sounds like BBD is a little upset, which can easily turn into resentment and anger.
When I made my original comment giving a TP to Tai, I had to agree with him 100%. I think the OP was taking a lot of the article out of context and reading emotions and intentions into his words that just weren't there, for the most part.

Rereading the article, I agree with Roy that this is the only statement that I have any question over. He sounds bitter and quite honestly, the answer sounds pretty stupid. What does he mean he doesn't know to do it yet? Didn't he have to adjust from being the star and long time starter at LSU to being a bit role player as a rookie for the Celtics? he's done this before, so I am kind of lost over what he is talking about.

Now, unfortunately the interview isn't on video because Murphy and Baby could have been talking about his specific playing role, like center versus power forward and a specific amount of playing time. Maybe not, I don't know. He also could have said the last part in a joking manner with a big smile on his face.

But without the exact questioning and without an observational description of Baby's mood and voice inflection, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2009, 06:09:39 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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We don't want our players being HONEST with the media. We want them to be good little soldiers and talk the party line because that is what is best for the Celtics. Causing disruption due to comments to the media for selfish reasons is not how you win championships, no matter how small. If he had made the right comment then this thing would be put to bed. It will be real easy for a reporter later in the season if he has a few games of DNP's or small minutes to bring this up again trying to make a big thing out of a small thing. If the Celtics win a championship this year I don't CARE whether he plays even one minute. It's not about him. His response was about HIM.

Okay, you stand on the side of Falseness.  That's your choice.  I'll stand with Truth.  The funny thing is, the people standing on the side of Falseness (advocating a politically correct non-answer) are the same ones claiming this is a 'disruption' and worrying about the 'distractions' it'll cause.  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies.

You can be truthful and stay faithful to the team.  Those two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive.  Baby's response was about him, because the question was about him and how he's fitting into the larger team fabric.  And don't forget his answer--he said it will be a struggle going from starter's minutes to reserve minutes, but that it was great to be a part of a great team.  That sounds like a honest man who knows his sacrifice will be as great as his reward. 

This all boils down to emotions and honesty.  Baby's an emotional player and he uses that emotion to give him an edge over his opponents.  But the thing with emotions is that if you have them and don't express them, they begin to exert control over you.  That's where honesty comes in.  If you're an emotional person, you need to be honest about them when you have them.  Baby recognizes the pull between individual glory and team success; he recognizes his desire to be a star, and his desire to be a part of something greater than himself and so by expressing those honest, personal emotions, he's able to control them and funnel them to use in a team context.  If you listen to KG (another player who relies on his emotions for his 'edge'), you'll hear the same dichotomy.

I like how we stand on the side of truth and want 100% complete honesty our of our 3rd string backup PF/C however we don't expect the same thing out of the President of the United States… I know that's a different thread, however it is related.

This isn't the appropriate forum for that topic, EJ.  Let's just say that I appreciate honesty across the board, yet I'm not naive enough to expect it in politics--because politics is a game of subtle manipulation where honesty is but one means of getting what you want.  But, just like in poker, there's no sense in ever showing your cards.  Like any game, there's no morality--it's all about results.  Just like I don't expect Doc to be 'honest' and tell us his game plan before the game happens, I don't expect Obama to come out and tell us what he really wants before he gets it.

I don't want BBD to lie to the media. I want him to avoid the question and what I said he ought to have responded with was exactly that. If pushed he needed to have walked away.

Yeah, but you don't want Baby to be honest either.  I think your problem is that you expect some kind of military-style toe-the-line attitude from the players.  But they're not robots, or even soldiers.  Especially in the case of Baby (and other emotional players), I don't know how you can expect them to turn on and off their emotions, expecting them to act like robots off the court, yet wanting them completely different on the court.

Further, what he actually said wasn't that [dang]ing, or surprising, or even potentially divisive to the team as a whole.  You warn us about 'distractions' and those who want to 'make a story out of this,' but in reality you're warning us about guys like yourself, guys that find fault and distraction and big stories every time someone has the gall to shown an ounce of humanity.  Baby opened up about his inner struggle to put team ahead of the individual (a struggle he's overcome about 99% of the time), and now he's taking heat for actually putting himself before the team. 

It's because of people that extrapolate bad motive from innocent displays of human uncertainty that we've increasingly moved to a say-nothing, politically correct society of emotionally repressed automatons.  If we all grew up just a little, maybe we'd learn to embrace the ambiguity inherent in life, instead of trying to extinguish it at the expense of the very things that make us human.

Which is exactly why I said that this was more for a different thread, however I DO find it appropriate. You are putting yourself out there as "high and mighty" requiring perfect honesty in all things however every time you post in a political thread you dismiss people being upset at half truths and outright lies from our most important leaders. You can't have it both ways.

Let's not hijack this thread into a me-versus-you barbfest, okay?  Politics is a game, and like any other game, honesty plays little-to-no role in it.  It's about getting what you want within the confines of the rules of the game.  People who don't realize that should be dismissed--it's an inherent characteristic of any game that has winners and losers.  I don't have it both ways, I have my eyes wide open and I know how to play to win.  If you want to discuss this further, I'd suggest making a topic of it in the off-topics forum.

Your labeling my words as standing on the side of  falseness is definitely drawing a huge stretch of a conclusion. It was also untrue. Let me state this simpler so you can understand where I stand:

Political correctness is a form of falseness, the same form you decry in politics.  As you said yourself, you don't want our players being HONEST with the media.  Therefore, you're on the side of falseness--you want our players to delude the media when possible, so as to perpetuate a false state of affairs.  By extension, you're arguing that you'd rather become delusional than be faced with ambiguity.  That's fine; it's your choice.  I just think players should be honest when possible, provided it doesn't impact their ability to win. To me, that's what Baby was doing.

See, part of our disagreement is about the role of honesty; and part of our disagreement is about the impact of Baby's words. I think there's a place for honesty in one's dealing with the press; and also happen to think that Baby didn't say anything particularly earth-shattering in the article in question.  He just voiced the concerns that have troubled athletes for ages. 

I think BBD shouldn't answer that question at all if he can't honestly answer it as a team player. If he doesn't feel that way then he should shut up. If he doesn't feel that way then we should be nervous that, like Starbury did, he may not stay the good little soldier. (fortunately Starbury waited until after the season to lose it) He better deal with it because unless there is an injury he will be dealing with this until his contract expires or he is traded.

He did answer it as a team player--all players must balance ego concerns versus team concerns and that was the essence of his answer, though you and the OP are concentrating on only one part of his answer at the expense of the other.  His answer in essence was that while he'd love to be starting and playing big minutes, it's great to be a part of a great team.  For your taste, he spent a little bit too much time extolling what he's giving up (or maybe Mark Murphy played up those quotes to 'make' a story), but that doesn't dismiss the fact that he knows why he's giving it up, or dismiss the fact that he's been giving it up for his entire NBA career.
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Re: Baby = Problem....
« Reply #89 on: October 23, 2009, 07:08:55 PM »

Offline Reyquila

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BIG Baby is not astarter in this team now and wont be while the present 5 are playing. He is a sub, and sometimes he is a very good sub. That is what his roile is NOW. Maybe later on, as our regulars get older and/or injured, then withing the presently constituted team, his role has a very good chance of increasing in minutes, conmensurate with his production. In time, and being in the right place at the right time, he might even start; but not now on this team. Thats all; no big secret; no magic formula; nothing more;nothing less. If he doesnt understand that now; there is something not kosher with his neurons.
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