Author Topic: College football 2009  (Read 125875 times)

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Re: College football 2009
« Reply #120 on: October 31, 2009, 11:47:56 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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No way the Fiesta or Sugar take Boise State over a one loss SEC team or one loss PAC-10 team simply due to economics.


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Re: College football 2009
« Reply #121 on: October 31, 2009, 11:54:42 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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A team that falls behind as far as Iowa did today is lucky to win and a team that falls apart like Indiana deserves to lose.

The top 10 is going to get a complete shake up if USC loses. 

As for Boise St., their schedule is so bad the rest of the way, they will ONLY move up if others lose.  Sad, but that is the BCS system.  The do not have one good team left on their schedule.

True, but Boise's strength of schedule should improve if Oregon wins and finishes out the year undefeated (since Boise beat them).  However, regardless of what else happens, it won't be enough to jump an undefeated SEC or Big 12 team (and it shouldn't).
For all the supposed superiority and quality of the Big 12 I have to say that if Texas goes undefeated this year I don't think that would be near as impressive as a one loss Alabama or Florida. Sorry but I don't see the Big 12 as being that dominant.

Texas is undefeated and OSU has two losses but every other team in the conference has 3 or more losses. And there have been a lot of out of conference losses.

Kansas St loss to a 4-4 Louisiana-Lafeyette team and a 3-5 UCLA.
Nebraska has loss to 5-3 Virginia Tech
Iowa State lost to #4 Iowa, a decent loss.
Colorado lost to 3-6 Colorado State, 4-5 Toledo and 6-2 and recently ranked West Virginia.
Oklahoma State lost to #18 Houston.
Okalahoma lost to 6-2 BYU and 6-2 Miami, both ranked.
Texas Tech also lost to Houston.
Texas A&M lost to 4-4 Arkansas.
Baylor lost to 4-4 Connecticut.

Going over the impressive out of conference wins that the teams in the Big 12 have this year and I don't see any. OSU beat then #13 Georgia but Georgia has turned out to be a .500 team and that my friends is the most impressive out of conference victory by anyone in the entire conference. Almost all the wins out of conference for teams in the Big 12 come at the expense of the UTEP's, North Dakota State's, Furman's, Kent State's, Louisiana-Monroe's and Bowling Green's of the world.

At this point Roy, I'm more likely to send Boise State, once beaten Florida or Alabama or LSU, or undefeated Cincy or Iowa to the BCS Championship before Texas and that's even if they stay undeated. The Big 12 and Texas' overall schedule, just hasn't looked that impressive this year.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #122 on: October 31, 2009, 11:59:30 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I agree that Big 12 is down this year but if Texas runs the table, they're playing in the National Title Game. That's a certainty.


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Re: College football 2009
« Reply #123 on: November 01, 2009, 12:11:09 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I agree that Big 12 is down this year but if Texas runs the table, they're playing in the National Title Game. That's a certainty.
Yeah because they travel well, because they have a Heisman Trophy candidate and because they will be undefeated. But a one loss LSU or Alabama or even undefeated Iowa or one loss Oregon are probably better TEAMS than they are. Texas and the people pimping them need to stop sending out these falsities that they are playing in some great POWER conference this year because, simply, it isn't. The Pac-10, Big Ten, ACC and Big East are all just as powerful or more powerful than the Big 12 this year.

Texas is resting upon the laurels of the very bad idea of preseason rankings predetermining your conference's strength and where your position will be in the Top 25. Iowa's journey through the Big 10 and playing quality teams in Iowa State, Arizona, and Northern Iowa is way more impressive than Texas' schedule. Oregon's trip through the Pac 10 and games versus Utah, Boise and Perdue is even more impressive.

Texas, I am sorry, is the beneficiary of the very broken idea of preseason polls determining strength in teams when it clearly should have a poll until the 5th week of the year to properly determine which conferences and teams are the best and strongest rather than college football experts in magazines before the season starts.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #124 on: November 01, 2009, 10:48:10 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Nick, I gotta disagree with you about Texas.  Albeit, playing in the a down year for the Big 12, they are still a very good football team.  Their defense is one of the best in the nation and they have an offense capable of putting up some points.  You can argue that Florida or Alabama might be better than them but there's no way I can put Iowa in front of them or a one loss LSU team.  After watching 8 or so weeks of football, I can't bring myself to say either of those teams would beat Texas.   Texas is a heckuva football team. 

I'm also gonna retract my statement that Boise St. won't make a BCS bowl if TCU goes undefeated and grabs one of the at-large bids.  After looking up and down the conference standings, I think there could be a spot for Boise St. in a BCS bowl. 

SEC- Florida, Alabama
ACC- Georgia Tech (or whoever)
Big East- Cincinnati
Big 12- Texas
Big 10- Iowa, Penn St.
Pac-10- Oregon
Non-BCS- TCU

That's 9 teams there.  There's one spot left.  I don't see another team coming from either the Big East or ACC.  Same goes for the Big 12 unless there's an upset in the Big 12 title game, then Texas grabs an at-large.  Big 10 won't put a 3rd team in.  Pac-10?  It'd have to be a two loss team.

You start getting into all these two loss teams and I think it'll be extremely difficult for a bowl to pass over an undefeated Boise St. team in that scenario.  They could still very well get squeezed by economics but it'll be a lot tougher to leave them out.


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Re: College football 2009
« Reply #125 on: November 01, 2009, 11:08:10 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Nick, I gotta disagree with you about Texas.  Albeit, playing in the a down year for the Big 12, they are still a very good football team.  Their defense is one of the best in the nation and they have an offense capable of putting up some points.  You can argue that Florida or Alabama might be better than them but there's no way I can put Iowa in front of them or a one loss LSU team.  After watching 8 or so weeks of football, I can't bring myself to say either of those teams would beat Texas.   Texas is a heckuva football team. 

I'm also gonna retract my statement that Boise St. won't make a BCS bowl if TCU goes undefeated and grabs one of the at-large bids.  After looking up and down the conference standings, I think there could be a spot for Boise St. in a BCS bowl. 

SEC- Florida, Alabama
ACC- Georgia Tech (or whoever)
Big East- Cincinnati
Big 12- Texas
Big 10- Iowa, Penn St.
Pac-10- Oregon
Non-BCS- TCU

That's 9 teams there.  There's one spot left.  I don't see another team coming from either the Big East or ACC.  Same goes for the Big 12 unless there's an upset in the Big 12 title game, then Texas grabs an at-large.  Big 10 won't put a 3rd team in.  Pac-10?  It'd have to be a two loss team.

You start getting into all these two loss teams and I think it'll be extremely difficult for a bowl to pass over an undefeated Boise St. team in that scenario.  They could still very well get squeezed by economics but it'll be a lot tougher to leave them out.

I think Texas is a good football team but I think they have to be held as suspect given the weak showing of the Big 12 this year outside of the Big 12 and their own poor out of conference opponents. In a neutral site do I think they could beat Iowa or LSU or Oregon ....sorry Dons, I'm not convinced. Their level of competition has been weak, weak, weak.


As for the list of BCS bowls I still think Houston has to be considered at given their out of conference victories. But Boise and TCU should fight for a non BCS bid.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #126 on: November 01, 2009, 12:07:20 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Oh my goodness gracious. USC might not get to go to BCS bowl that they feel entitled to. Whatsoever will the BCS do? 

How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

The BCS. Like the segregationalist south, but in the year 2009

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2009, 12:12:32 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

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Re: College football 2009
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2009, 12:14:46 PM »

Offline Eja117

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

Yes. One whole non-BCS team will play in a meaningless game and possibly end up ranked 2 or 3 at the end of the year. While we're at it let's make a rule that says people that don't go to Ivy League colleges can only become vice president, but never president because they don't have to compete against the best of the best, even if they have a history of doing better than them in most competitive situations. It's the exact same thing.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2009, 12:25:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

Yes. One whole non-BCS team will play in a meaningless game and possibly end up ranked 2 or 3 at the end of the year. While we're at it let's make a rule that says people that don't go Ivy League colleges can only become vice president, but never president because they don't have to compete against the best of the best, even if they have a history of doing better than them in most competitive situations. It's the exact same thing.
Taking the political analogy out of the equation what needs to be remembered is that the entire bowl system is nothing but a huge, collegiate, political, money making scam and that the biggest of the bowls that pay out the big bucks(those in the BCS) want teams that travel well, have followings that spend big bucks, and will draw the television ratings.

Boise State and TCU will never bring the ratings, the people or the spending money that USC or LSU or even Notre Dame would. The BCS isn't about being fair to undefeated non BCS conference teams. It's about making huge gobs of cash and Boise State and TCU will not bring that cash. Yes, the BCS does attempt to crown a national champion but here's the kicker. The BCS doesn't give a hoot if the best and most deserving team wins the national championship. All they care about is in crowning a champion, everyone is making millions.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2009, 12:29:41 PM »

Offline Eja117

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

Yes. One whole non-BCS team will play in a meaningless game and possibly end up ranked 2 or 3 at the end of the year. While we're at it let's make a rule that says people that don't go Ivy League colleges can only become vice president, but never president because they don't have to compete against the best of the best, even if they have a history of doing better than them in most competitive situations. It's the exact same thing.
Taking the political analogy out of the equation what needs to be remembered is that the entire bowl system is nothing but a huge, collegiate, political, money making scam and that the biggest of the bowls that pay out the big bucks(those in the BCS) want teams that travel well, have followings that spend big bucks, and will draw the television ratings.

Boise State and TCU will never bring the ratings, the people or the spending money that USC or LSU or even Notre Dame would. The BCS isn't about being fair to undefeated non BCS conference teams. It's about making huge gobs of cash and Boise State and TCU will not bring that cash. Yes, the BCS does attempt to crown a national champion but here's the kicker. The BCS doesn't give a hoot if the best and most deserving team wins the national championship. All they care about is in crowning a champion, everyone is making millions.
I 95% agree with you.

But here's where I'm not as sure. Do you think adjusted for inflation the BCS is making the NCAA more money than they were before?

Do you think that they lost money on the Hawaii/Georgia Fiesta Bowl? I mean Hawaii has got to be a team that doesn't travel well.

Also if it were really 100% about money (and I totally agree it 99% is) than I strongly suspect they are leaving millions if not billions (yep you heard right) on the table by not having a tourney ala the bball tourney.  I can't imagine for a second that the basketball teams would make more by having 30 elite games, and only one that counts, and no tourney.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2009, 01:08:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

Yes. One whole non-BCS team will play in a meaningless game and possibly end up ranked 2 or 3 at the end of the year. While we're at it let's make a rule that says people that don't go Ivy League colleges can only become vice president, but never president because they don't have to compete against the best of the best, even if they have a history of doing better than them in most competitive situations. It's the exact same thing.
Taking the political analogy out of the equation what needs to be remembered is that the entire bowl system is nothing but a huge, collegiate, political, money making scam and that the biggest of the bowls that pay out the big bucks(those in the BCS) want teams that travel well, have followings that spend big bucks, and will draw the television ratings.

Boise State and TCU will never bring the ratings, the people or the spending money that USC or LSU or even Notre Dame would. The BCS isn't about being fair to undefeated non BCS conference teams. It's about making huge gobs of cash and Boise State and TCU will not bring that cash. Yes, the BCS does attempt to crown a national champion but here's the kicker. The BCS doesn't give a hoot if the best and most deserving team wins the national championship. All they care about is in crowning a champion, everyone is making millions.
I 95% agree with you.

But here's where I'm not as sure. Do you think adjusted for inflation the BCS is making the NCAA more money than they were before?

Do you think that they lost money on the Hawaii/Georgia Fiesta Bowl? I mean Hawaii has got to be a team that doesn't travel well.

Also if it were really 100% about money (and I totally agree it 99% is) than I strongly suspect they are leaving millions if not billions (yep you heard right) on the table by not having a tourney ala the bball tourney.  I can't imagine for a second that the basketball teams would make more by having 30 elite games, and only one that counts, and no tourney.
I have two best friends since childhood. One is a Sports Information Director at an ACC school. The other is an Assistant Athletic Director at a Big 12 school. We were inseparable as kids and when they can get time after the bowls and in the early summer, they come home and we talk shop, shop for them, incessantly over beers at the local tavern or on the links. This BCS conversation is one we talk about ALL THE TIME. The simple fact is this, there isn't a person associated in athletics at a Divsion 1 playing football university in America that doesn't want a playoff system.

Oh, in public they say what they have to say or what they feel will get them in the least amount of trouble, but behind the scenes, there isn't a coach, athletic direct, sports information director or player at a top 40 school that doesn't want a playoff system.

But what the athletes and athletic personnel want and what the deans, presidents, and higher ups that are the power brokers at the university, what the people who run the bowls and parades and festivities associated with the bowls and what the networks want are completely different things. Too many extremely high paying yearly jobs, too much university revenue, too much money is invested in the current structure that getting the people who have the power to elicit change will never happen because there's no guarantee for those people that the monet stream will continue if everything is changed.

Don't forget how the conference money structure works for bowls. If a team from a conference makes a bowl the payout for that bowl does not go directly to the team. It goes into a fund that then is divided among all the teams in the conference.

Take the SEC for instance. They are guaranteed the Sugar bowl for the champ if the champ isn't in the National championship game. They will most likely also get an at large BCS team as well this year. They also have guaranteed births to the Music City Bowl, the Independence Bowl, the Chick-Fil-A Bowl, the Outback Bowl, the Capital One bowl, the PapaJohns.com Bowl, the Cotton Bowl and the Liberty Bowl. But even if they don't get an at large BCS berth they still have 8 guaranteed slots every year. Look at the money they get:

Sugar Bowl   $17,000,000
Music City Bowl   $1,6000,000
Independence Bowl   $1,100,000
Chick-Fil-A Bowl   $2,400,000
Outback Bowl    $3,000,000
Capital One Bowl   $4,250,000
PapaJohns.com Bowl   $300,000
Cotton Bowl   $3,000,000
Liberty Bowl   $1,500,000

So without getting and at large BCS berth the SEC conference with 12 teams is guaranteed to split up, at a minimum, $34.15 million every year. Now take into consideration that in the 11 year BCS history the SEC has gotten an at large bid 6 time and probably will again this year. So 60% of the time the SEC is making around about $15,000,000 more or a total, due to bowls of about $50 million or more than $4 million per school. whether they go to a bowl or not.

No way the SEC university presidents decide to shut off that money stream just to properly crown a champion. And it's the same in the ACC, Big 10, Big East, Big 12 and Pac 10.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2009, 01:14:58 PM »

Offline Eja117

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How much you want to bet that a 2 loss USC team is more likely to get into a BCS bowl than two undefeated non-BCS schools?

At least one of the non-BCS teams will play in a BCS bowl if they're in the top-12 at the end of the year, right?

Yes. One whole non-BCS team will play in a meaningless game and possibly end up ranked 2 or 3 at the end of the year. While we're at it let's make a rule that says people that don't go Ivy League colleges can only become vice president, but never president because they don't have to compete against the best of the best, even if they have a history of doing better than them in most competitive situations. It's the exact same thing.
Taking the political analogy out of the equation what needs to be remembered is that the entire bowl system is nothing but a huge, collegiate, political, money making scam and that the biggest of the bowls that pay out the big bucks(those in the BCS) want teams that travel well, have followings that spend big bucks, and will draw the television ratings.

Boise State and TCU will never bring the ratings, the people or the spending money that USC or LSU or even Notre Dame would. The BCS isn't about being fair to undefeated non BCS conference teams. It's about making huge gobs of cash and Boise State and TCU will not bring that cash. Yes, the BCS does attempt to crown a national champion but here's the kicker. The BCS doesn't give a hoot if the best and most deserving team wins the national championship. All they care about is in crowning a champion, everyone is making millions.
I 95% agree with you.

But here's where I'm not as sure. Do you think adjusted for inflation the BCS is making the NCAA more money than they were before?

Do you think that they lost money on the Hawaii/Georgia Fiesta Bowl? I mean Hawaii has got to be a team that doesn't travel well.

Also if it were really 100% about money (and I totally agree it 99% is) than I strongly suspect they are leaving millions if not billions (yep you heard right) on the table by not having a tourney ala the bball tourney.  I can't imagine for a second that the basketball teams would make more by having 30 elite games, and only one that counts, and no tourney.
I have two best friends since childhood. One is a Sports Information Director at an ACC school. The other is an Assistant Athletic Director at a Big 12 school. We were inseparable as kids and when they can get time after the bowls and in the early summer, they come home and we talk shop, shop for them, incessantly over beers at the local tavern or on the links. This BCS conversation is one we talk about ALL THE TIME. The simple fact is this, there isn't a person associated in athletics at a Divsion 1 playing football university in America that doesn't want a playoff system.

Oh, in public they say what they have to say or what they feel will get them in the least amount of trouble, but behind the scenes, there isn't a coach, athletic direct, sports information director or player at a top 40 school that doesn't want a playoff system.

But what the athletes and athletic personnel want and what the deans, presidents, and higher ups that are the power brokers at the university, what the people who run the bowls and parades and festivities associated with the bowls and what the networks want are completely different things. Too many extremely high paying yearly jobs, too much university revenue, too much money is invested in the current structure that getting the people who have the power to elicit change will never happen because there's no guarantee for those people that the monet stream will continue if everything is changed.

Don't forget how the conference money structure works for bowls. If a team from a conference makes a bowl the payout for that bowl does not go directly to the team. It goes into a fund that then is divided among all the teams in the conference.

Take the SEC for instance. They are guaranteed the Sugar bowl for the champ if the champ isn't in the National championship game. They will most likely also get an at large BCS team as well this year. They also have guaranteed births to the Music City Bowl, the Independence Bowl, the Chick-Fil-A Bowl, the Outback Bowl, the Capital One bowl, the PapaJohns.com Bowl, the Cotton Bowl and the Liberty Bowl. But even if they don't get an at large BCS berth they still have 8 guaranteed slots every year. Look at the money they get:

Sugar Bowl   $17,000,000
Music City Bowl   $1,6000,000
Independence Bowl   $1,100,000
Chick-Fil-A Bowl   $2,400,000
Outback Bowl    $3,000,000
Capital One Bowl   $4,250,000
PapaJohns.com Bowl   $300,000
Cotton Bowl   $3,000,000
Liberty Bowl   $1,500,000

So without getting and at large BCS berth the SEC conference with 12 teams is guaranteed to split up, at a minimum, $34.15 million every year. Now take into consideration that in the 11 year BCS history the SEC has gotten an at large bid 6 time and probably will again this year. So 60% of the time the SEC is making around about $15,000,000 more or a total, due to bowls of about $50 million or more than $4 million per school. whether they go to a bowl or not.

No way the SEC university presidents decide to shut off that money stream just to properly crown a champion. And it's the same in the ACC, Big 10, Big East, Big 12 and Pac 10.

Yeah, but can't the rights for the tourney be sold to TV for like $800 - $1.5 billion/year? That's a hell of a lot more.

I'm just saying if someone went to these same presidents with a proposal to make a bunch of elite basketball games with similar numbers with the caveat that they end the tourney I'm pretty sure the presidents would be like "Get out of my office now and don't come back joker!"

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2009, 01:28:12 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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But the bowl money is already on top of the guaranteed money the universities get for the money national and local television packages that are in place that make the universities as a whole hundreds of millions of dollars a year already. 12 separate newtworks have paid rights to broadcast college football. The amount of money being thrown around for these rights is already staggering as a cumulative number. ESPN has already paid JUST THE SEC $2.25 BILLION for the rights to televise their games through 2025. The total television money already being thrown around is more than what you have suggested.

Re: College football 2009
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2009, 01:51:14 PM »

Offline Eja117

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But the bowl money is already on top of the guaranteed money the universities get for the money national and local television packages that are in place that make the universities as a whole hundreds of millions of dollars a year already. 12 separate newtworks have paid rights to broadcast college football. The amount of money being thrown around for these rights is already staggering as a cumulative number. ESPN has already paid JUST THE SEC $2.25 BILLION for the rights to televise their games through 2025. The total television money already being thrown around is more than what you have suggested.

Ok ok. You've got me there so let me just put it this way. The presidents preside over both sports. I'm just saying there is presumably one best way to make the most money.  I assume it's a tournament and that both sports would have tournaments. Baseball and hockey also have them.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the best way to make the most money is with one championship game and a bunch of elite meaningless games. So let's just say that's the best way. Then I'd think that the presidents would move towards a BCS system in those sports too.

I' just saying I would think that one way would make the most money and that's what all the sports would have and I'd assume it's a playoff.  But maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong why are the presidents leaving all that extra money on the table?