Would N.O. really Deal Chris Paul?

[mgent]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

I can go on with you, I'd rather have him than Rondo, but i think he belongs on his 'own' team.  The Hornets should build around him and give him support in the areas he needs it.  Trying to force him into a tight-knit team like we have just sounds ludicrous to me (especially if it takes our whole back-court to do it, and our center).

[winsomme]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

bu the question isn't whether CP is a better player than Rondo. the question is whether or not he is a better fit....and again, this is without Ray there too.

and CP is a scorer. he's not going to be playing well and not scoring.

also, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I'm saying there is merit to the observation that Rondo (and Ray) is a better fit for the Cs. and I'm using the play of the Hornets last season to show that there is some reason to think that.

Bud, you think the poor play of the Hornets was due to other players not doing their jobs and injury. I however feel there is blame on CP too for their decline last season. remember, this was a team that was one win away from the WCF last season (even without the depth at backup center).

I don't agree that their team is crap. I would take a bunch of their players on the Cs. I like Butler. I like Wright. I like West and Chandler for that matter....obviously a big Pose fan too..

anyway, when I watched that team I saw a team that was totally out of whack, not just individual guys missing open shots fed to them by CP. I saw deeper porblems there.

so, could CP work here if traded for Ray and Rondo? Sure. he's a great player. but I think the people who point out the "better fit" possibly have some merit to what they are arguing.

aside from all that, I think the reason to not make that move has more to do with 1) not fixing something that isn't broke (we already have the best starting 5 in the NBA) and 2) not having a massive change when you just sold Sheed on GPA and used Ray in person to do it.

I'm a big CP fan, by the way. I was just terribly disappointed in their showing last season...especially getting torched by DEN in the playoffs.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

bu the question isn't whether CP is a better player than Rondo. the question is whether or not he is a better fit....and again, this is without Ray there too.

and CP is a scorer. he's not going to be playing well and not scoring.

You don't understand CP3 then. He's a playmaker, he runs the offense. He was asked to look for his shot more because the team needed it from him.

also, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm not saying it wouldn't work. I'm saying there is merit to the observation that Rondo (and Ray) is a better fit for the Cs. and I'm using the play of the Hornets last season to show that there is some reason to think that.

Bud, you think the poor play of the Hornets was due to other players not doing their jobs and injury. I however feel there is blame on CP too for their decline last season. remember, this was a team that was one win away from the WCF last season (even without the depth at backup center).

I don't agree that their team is crap. I would take a bunch of their players on the Cs. I like Butler. I like Wright. I like West and Chandler for that matter....obviously a big Pose fan too..

You're still trying to correllate how far in the playoffs they went to how CP did a poor job running the offense... you just can't do that. Yes, even without a backup center, but they had freaking Tyson Chandler healthy doing his job.

I don't know what's so hard to understand when 3 of your 4 core players are playing hurt and having an overall down year how that can be Paul's fualt when the offense is not running as it should. A good portion of NO's offense was the pick and roll with with Chandler (which he sucked at last year). Pick and pop with West (which his shots weren't falling during the playoffs because he was hurt), and Peja taking bad shots and missing ones that he should be making... same kind of shots he had been setup to take before (if not mistaken he was hurt too).

So tell me, what's Chris Paul to do in this scenario to get the offense running as it should? Ah wait, they have Buttler and Posey, all is cool, they can surely rely on them to carry the load... Ah sorry, forgot about Wright. A second year player that played 54 games in the season, and only played 8 minutes per game in the playoffs. Yeah, so much help he was.

So you like West and Chandler. Yeah, me too... so why aren't you holding them accountable for what occured with NO's offense, given that theír poor play was probably the main problem? Again because they were hurt, I don't know what's so hard to undersand about that, especially Chandler who played lost and like crap all year. How can you blame NO's poor offense on CP3 when people around him are not doing their job... it's really beyond me.

anyway, when I watched that team I saw a team that was totally out of whack, not just individual guys missing open shots fed to them by CP. I saw deeper porblems there.

Yep, there were deeper problems. Poor roster, with poor depth in various positions, and health problems. That's your deeper problems. No need to go beyond that.

so, could CP work here if traded for Ray and Rondo? Sure. he's a great player. but I think the people who point out the "better fit" possibly have some merit to what they are arguing.

Yeah, I don't see how they have any merit since CP3 runs the offense much better. Actually CP3 does just about everything in the court better than Rondo. Is Rondo a better fit when defenders are playing off him and helping double team Paul and Ray? Is that how great of a fit Rondo is?

Really, there's CP3 and then quite a gap between him and Rondo. It really isn't even close. Teams design their defenses solely in trying to stop CP3 doing his job and he still does what he does.

aside from all that, I think the reason to not make that move has more to do with 1) not fixing something that isn't broke (we already have the best starting 5 in the NBA) and 2) not having a massive change when you just sold Sheed on GPA and used Ray in person to do it.

Hey, if you're scared of change... just say so. But don't try to sell me on the merits that Rondo is better than CP3 for this team because he isn't and it's not even close. That you think that CP3 is a scorer first, and everything else second (fair assumption from your statement earlier in your post) makes me think that you don't know CP3 game at all.

I'm a big CP fan, by the way. I was just terribly disappointed in their showing last season...especially getting torched by DEN in the playoffs.

That's fine, many were... just don't point too many fingers at CP3 because the bulk of the blame was elsewhere.

Funny how people are uncomfortable with our roster and questioning if we would even come out of the first round and then expect better from NO's when their roster situation is much worse than the Celtics.

And you forget that they don't have Pargo this year either, and he was a huge catalyst from the bench... another ball handler.

But really, it's beyond me this argument of Rondo vs. Paul. The gap between the two it's quite big; it's not even funny. If you have trouble with the trade it should be elsewhere. Like hey, you have problem with moving Ray. That's fine, that's a concern of mine too... does CP3 warrant other changes in the roster? That's a fair question, and I think it does, but I do understand if people don't feel the same way.

But not wanting CP3 because Rondo is better fit is pure crap as far as I'm concerned.

[vagrantwade]

Wow. No way, but...

Ray
Rondo
Perk
Tony
Gabe
JR

For

CP3
Chandler

That works on the TradeChecker.

CP3
PP
Billy?
KG
Sheed

Bench

Chandler
Scal

Trade 3/5 of our starting championship team?

Really?

I would like to win another personally. CP3 needs to have total control of the ball. The Celtics need a PG to get the ball to KG/Pierce/Allen. Not one to score 25 ppg.

[winsomme]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

bu the question isn't whether CP is a better player than Rondo. the question is whether or not he is a better fit....and again, this is without Ray there too.

and CP is a scorer. he's not going to be playing well and not scoring.

You don't understand CP3 then. He's a playmaker, he runs the offense. He was asked to look for his shot more because the team needed it from him.

he was NOT asked to shoot more. he the exact same FGA per game in 09 as he did in 08. and that's the way it should be. the guy is one of the best scorers in the league.

he ALSO is a playmaker and runs the offense, and like i have already said the wheels came off the offense last season, especially down the stretch.

I'm sorry. when you get it handed to you the way NO did with DEN, you simply can't take the player that you just acknowledged RUNS the offense off the hook. They got smoked.

did you watch game 4 of that series Bud? they lost by 60 freaking points! I mean please...

as for depth problems, the only position they weren't deep at was front court, but again, they had the same problem last year when they were one win away from the WCF. at the other spots, they had lots of nice backup options. actually all players i would take on a bench for the Cs..Posey, Wright, Daniels, Brown....all solid bench players.

as for health, David West was WAY more injured last season in the playoffs than this season. the guy could barely run up and down the court at the end of that SAS series.

Bud, just to reiterate, this team that was essentially the same as last years team (last years team also had injury problems and had the same lack of depth in the front court). and they lost AT HOME by 60 pts....

you simply cannot take the player that you just said runs the offense off the hook when he had a very similar team last season and was super competitive.

this isn't some baseless fear of change. this is a clearly laid out observation about the precipitous fall off for NO last season. you don't want to pin any blame on CP. that's fine. but I can't do that. not with the team leader and not when you get destroyed the way the did.

as for our current roster, do you not think we have the best starting 5 in the NBA?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

bu the question isn't whether CP is a better player than Rondo. the question is whether or not he is a better fit....and again, this is without Ray there too.

and CP is a scorer. he's not going to be playing well and not scoring.

You don't understand CP3 then. He's a playmaker, he runs the offense. He was asked to look for his shot more because the team needed it from him.

he was NOT asked to shoot more. he the exact same FGA per game in 09 as he did in 08. and that's the way it should be. the guy is one of the best scorers in the league.

He was actually asked to shoot more, two years ago. That's the ROLE they want him to play because the team needs it. He's not out there gunning because he feels the need that he has to be the man and would be angry if he didn't put his shot ups. He was asked to do so.

he ALSO is a playmaker and runs the offense, and like i have already said the wheels came off the offense last season, especially down the stretch.

I'm sorry. when you get it handed to you the way NO did with DEN, you simply can't take the player that you just acknowledged RUNS the offense off the hook. They got smoked.

did you watch game 4 of that series Bud? they lost by 60 freaking points! I mean please...

as for depth problems, the only position they weren't deep at was front court, but again, they had the same problem last year when they were one win away from the WCF. at the other spots, they had lots of nice backup options. actually all players i would take on a bench for the Cs..Posey, Wright, Daniels, Brown....all solid bench players.

as for health, David West was WAY more injured last season in the playoffs than this season. the guy could barely run up and down the court at the end of that SAS series.

Bud, just to reiterate, this team that was essentially the same as last years team (last years team also had injury problems and had the same lack of depth in the front court). and they lost AT HOME by 60 pts....

you simply cannot take the player that you just said runs the offense off the hook when he had a very similar team last season and was super competitive.

this isn't some baseless fear of change. this is a clearly laid out observation about the precipitous fall off for NO last season. you don't want to pin any blame on CP. that's fine. but I can't do that. not with the team leader and not when you get destroyed the way the did.

as for our current roster, do you not think we have the best starting 5 in the NBA?

Seems like you're dismissing a ton of factors that are very vital, and this will go round and round as it usually does.

If you can't aknowledge the impact of Chandler and West playing poorly due to injury then we can go nowhere. Pierce played very hurt in our championship year, and had an excellent finals... yet fatigue killed him this year? See why you can't compare performances...

And actually, the rosters were not that similar. With all their big man problem, their depth last year was better than this season. And again, that Chandler was healthy and could play made that depth problem not as important and critical as it was this year. I don't know how you can keep dismissing this.

Also, they had Bonzi Wells (who didn't do much in the playoffs) and Pargo (who was very good for them). Morris Peterson contributing, something he didn't do this year, and was hurt a lot.

So you replace a healthy Chandler with a hurt Chandler that barely played all year, leaving that crap Armstrong as you're only back up center. Replace Wells with Posey who played better, but didn't play well and I think was hurt to. And then replace Pargo with Devin Brown who barely played because he sucked. And replace a good Peterson with one that sucked.

Yep, very similar rosters. The people contributing one year and another were not the same people. It was quite different when you get into the meat of it.

But anyways, I'm done discussing this.

[GKC]

Just my two cents; I think it's somewhat a backhanded comment Chris Paul made, because to me the only reason (other than if the economy goes REALLY bad) is if it seems like the Hornets will be forced to rebuild again due to money issues, meaning that they know Chris Paul will leave soon. In that case, yes, the Hornets would be smart in trading him since he could just leave without the Hornets getting anything out of it.

[winsomme]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

bu the question isn't whether CP is a better player than Rondo. the question is whether or not he is a better fit....and again, this is without Ray there too.

and CP is a scorer. he's not going to be playing well and not scoring.

You don't understand CP3 then. He's a playmaker, he runs the offense. He was asked to look for his shot more because the team needed it from him.

he was NOT asked to shoot more. he the exact same FGA per game in 09 as he did in 08. and that's the way it should be. the guy is one of the best scorers in the league.

He was actually asked to shoot more, two years ago. That's the ROLE they want him to play because the team needs it. He's not out there gunning because he feels the need that he has to be the man and would be angry if he didn't put his shot ups. He was asked to do so.

he ALSO is a playmaker and runs the offense, and like i have already said the wheels came off the offense last season, especially down the stretch.

I'm sorry. when you get it handed to you the way NO did with DEN, you simply can't take the player that you just acknowledged RUNS the offense off the hook. They got smoked.

did you watch game 4 of that series Bud? they lost by 60 freaking points! I mean please...

as for depth problems, the only position they weren't deep at was front court, but again, they had the same problem last year when they were one win away from the WCF. at the other spots, they had lots of nice backup options. actually all players i would take on a bench for the Cs..Posey, Wright, Daniels, Brown....all solid bench players.

as for health, David West was WAY more injured last season in the playoffs than this season. the guy could barely run up and down the court at the end of that SAS series.

Bud, just to reiterate, this team that was essentially the same as last years team (last years team also had injury problems and had the same lack of depth in the front court). and they lost AT HOME by 60 pts....

you simply cannot take the player that you just said runs the offense off the hook when he had a very similar team last season and was super competitive.

this isn't some baseless fear of change. this is a clearly laid out observation about the precipitous fall off for NO last season. you don't want to pin any blame on CP. that's fine. but I can't do that. not with the team leader and not when you get destroyed the way the did.

as for our current roster, do you not think we have the best starting 5 in the NBA?

Seems like you're dismissing a ton of factors that are very vital, and this will go round and round as it usually does.

If you can't aknowledge the impact of Chandler and West playing poorly due to injury then we can go nowhere. Pierce played very hurt in our championship year, and had an excellent finals... yet fatigue killed him this year? See why you can't compare performances...

And actually, the rosters were not that similar. With all their big man problem, their depth last year was better than this season. And again, that Chandler was healthy and could play made that depth problem not as important and critical as it was this year. I don't know how you can keep dismissing this.

Also, they had Bonzi Wells (who didn't do much in the playoffs) and Pargo (who was very good for them). Morris Peterson contributing, something he didn't do this year, and was hurt a lot.

So you replace a healthy Chandler with a hurt Chandler that barely played all year, leaving that crap Armstrong as you're only back up center. Replace Wells with Posey who played better, but didn't play well and I think was hurt to. And then replace Pargo with Devin Brown who barely played because he sucked. And replace a good Peterson with one that sucked.

Yep, very similar rosters. The people contributing one year and another were not the same people. It was quite different when you get into the meat of it.

But anyways, I'm done discussing this.

you're doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of doing. you are completely ignoring how injured West was last year and then pinning the teams problems this year on injuries. it's not consistent. but whatever...

I don't know if you watched that 60 point loss in NO or not, but i find it hard to believe that anybody who watched that game would take CP totally off the hook for what happened in NO last season...that was beyond ugly.

anyway, I would like to know if you think we currently have the best starting 5 in the NBA. because if you do, then I don't see why you would mess with that...

[snively]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

All true, but the gap between Rondo and Paul is not big enough to swallow Ray and Perk.  Paul's a much, much better scorer than Rondo and that makes the rest of his game more effective, but Rondo really isn't that far behind.  His poor man's Paul routine is quite effective (49% shooting, 12 pts, 5 boards, 8 assists, 2 steals in 33mpg vs Paul's 50% shooting, 23 pts, 5 boards, 11 assists and 3 steals in 38 mpg), and Rondo even outplayed him by a wide margin in the playoffs (17-10-10 with better efficiency vs. 16-4-10 for Paul)  Subtract Ray and maybe Perk too and, without the resources to add impact players in their stead, it just wouldn't be worth it.

[winsomme]

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

All true, but the gap between Rondo and Paul is not big enough to swallow Ray and Perk.  Paul's a much, much better scorer than Rondo and that makes the rest of his game more effective, but Rondo really isn't that far behind.  His poor man's Paul routine is quite effective (49% shooting, 12 pts, 5 boards, 8 assists, 2 steals in 33mpg vs Paul's 50% shooting, 23 pts, 5 boards, 11 assists and 3 steals in 38 mpg), and Rondo even outplayed him by a wide margin in the playoffs (17-10-10 with better efficiency vs. 16-4-10 for Paul)  Subtract Ray and maybe Perk too and, without the resources to add impact players in their stead, it just wouldn't be worth it.

I'm not even sure that the gap is enough to swallow just Ray. even losing Rondo and Ray is losing a huge chunk of your starting lineup.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm not doing the same exact thing. That West played well injured one year is irrelevant to him playing bad due to injury in the next. I'm not ignoring it, I'm just saying that one thing doesn't relate to the other. The only thing you're telling me with this is that West handled his injuries better the year before, and that's about it.

And I haven't absolved Chris Paul from playing poorly (and if I said as much then I certainly mispoke). I've simply been saying that the offense not running well wasn't his problem. He didn't produce as well as he should, just the same you have to take into account that he's the guy teams plan against to stop... so if the people surrounding you aren't hitting their shots, etc. chances of performing well decrease. But I'm not going to go there, he didn't shoot well... but as far as running the offense (setting people up, getting people open shots, and things of that nature) he wasn't the problem. Could he have been better running the offense? Sure. But his 3 main weapons weren't working (the deep ball, the pick and roll with Chandler, the pick and pop with West)... so other than scoring better, what else was he supposed to do?

As I've said with Rondo before, I could care less how much he scored. If he does run the offense as he should, I'm happy with him. In fact, in our championship year I was happier with some of Rondo's performances when he shot poorly than onces that he shot well, just because he was doing what he was supposed to on offense.

As for the best starting 5, I say that we should be the best 5, but don't perform like it. With the first unit we have we should be dominatng much more than we do. We often struggle to start games, only to fix things in half time to have good 3rd quarters which has pretty much been our MO the last couple of years. With the talent we have, we should be an offensive powerhouse.

A lot of the blame for that has to go to Rondo. It's no surprise that when Rondo was called out earlier in the season for playing poorly, that he finally started doing what he was supposed to during a good stretch that we played our best basketball and our offense was awesome. But Rondo doesn't do this night after night and it's a problem. Fully capable of doing it, but he simply doesn't do it.

Anyways, as far as CP3 and Rondo goes... CP3 just about does everything in the court better; just about.

I think you're both right.
Regardless the Hornets are not a championship team.
I think my main problem with Chris Paul is he does too much.  If we wanted him to fit in where Rondo was, he wouldn't score to the best of his ability, which would be a shame.  He feels a lot like AI who does his best when he has the ball a lot, which I feel is counter-productive to a team sport.  And then if he plays like a team player, that's counter-productive to being the best player he could be.  The good thing about Paul though is he can score AND pass.

You forget that Paul was ASKED to play that role. They had to push him to become the kind of scorer he is currently... he was quite content with distributing the ball.

Efficient scorer, better shooter than Rondo, better free-throw shooter than Rondo... good rebounder, good defense... defenders don't play off him like they do to Rondo, much better decision maker... we can go on and on.

All true, but the gap between Rondo and Paul is not big enough to swallow Ray and Perk.  Paul's a much, much better scorer than Rondo and that makes the rest of his game more effective, but Rondo really isn't that far behind.  His poor man's Paul routine is quite effective (49% shooting, 12 pts, 5 boards, 8 assists, 2 steals in 33mpg vs Paul's 50% shooting, 23 pts, 5 boards, 11 assists and 3 steals in 38 mpg), and Rondo even outplayed him by a wide margin in the playoffs (17-10-10 with better efficiency vs. 16-4-10 for Paul)  Subtract Ray and maybe Perk too and, without the resources to add impact players in their stead, it just wouldn't be worth it.

So, Rondo out played CP3 in one round of the playoffs. How about comparing all the other rounds?

This is not just about stats. Teams game plan against CP3 as the main threat. He shoots better... not because of higher FG%, but because he spreads the floor better. Has a better floater, is a better passer, a more accurate passer, has better timing with his passes. Defenders have to defend him, they can't play off him to double team others... this are very imporant factors.

And no one is saying trade Rondo-Ray-Perk for CP3 alone. Hell, no one is saying trade all 3... at least from the trade scenarios worth considering.

[winsomme]

As for the best starting 5, I say that we should be the best 5, but don't perform like it. With the first unit we have we should be dominatng much more than we do. We often struggle to start games, only to fix things in half time to have good 3rd quarters which has pretty much been our MO the last couple of years. With the talent we have, we should be an offensive powerhouse.

A lot of the blame for that has to go to Rondo. It's no surprise that when Rondo was called out earlier in the season for playing poorly, that he finally started doing what he was supposed to during a good stretch that we played our best basketball and our offense was awesome. But Rondo doesn't do this night after night and it's a problem. Fully capable of doing it, but he simply doesn't do it.

but this is exactly what i'm talking about. when the Cs don't play well you attribute it to Rondo not playing well. when NO doesn't play well it's because the other players aren't hitting their open shots and/or are injured.

the problem isn't the conclusion that you are coming to that West played through his injuries better in one season than the other. the problem is that you are explaining the play in a way that absolves CP of any involvement when you get a bad result.

you are not doing the same for Rondo.

why aren't the Cs scorers just not making their shots when the Cs offense is struggling? why is it on Rondo not performing well? but the opposite for CP...

the fact is, CP played poorly in the playoffs and like you said, he is the team's playmaker. when he plays poorly, their team plays poorly - injured TC or no injured TC. Is he solely responsible for the team playing the way they did? no. but he certainly was part of it. and as the team leader playing healthy on a team that was one win away from the WCF last season, he needs to shoulder a good chunk of the load.

Bud, they lost by 60 pts at home in a series that they were never in....you can't tell me that CP comes out of that unscathed.

did you see that game?

look, i followed NO closely this season in part because I had Peja and TC on my fantasy team, so I know they struggled and were injured, but CPs place as a league MVP caliber player took a hit this season too, and I think that now that we have Sheed in place as the 6th man, rocking the boat in the starting 5 to bring in a player whose team had a total meltdown to end last season has a risk attatched to it.

that's why i think there is merit to concerns about the fit of CP to replace Rondo and Ray. could it work and be better? maybe. but why make such a drastic move on a "maybe"?

[BudweiserCeltic]

As for the best starting 5, I say that we should be the best 5, but don't perform like it. With the first unit we have we should be dominatng much more than we do. We often struggle to start games, only to fix things in half time to have good 3rd quarters which has pretty much been our MO the last couple of years. With the talent we have, we should be an offensive powerhouse.

A lot of the blame for that has to go to Rondo. It's no surprise that when Rondo was called out earlier in the season for playing poorly, that he finally started doing what he was supposed to during a good stretch that we played our best basketball and our offense was awesome. But Rondo doesn't do this night after night and it's a problem. Fully capable of doing it, but he simply doesn't do it.

but this is exactly what i'm talking about. when the Cs don't play well you attribute it to Rondo not playing well. when NO doesn't play well it's because the other players aren't hitting their open shots and/or are injured.

the problem isn't the conclusion that you are coming to that West played through his injuries better in one season than the other. the problem is that you are explaining the play in a way that absolves CP of any involvement when you get a bad result.

you are not doing the same for Rondo.

why aren't the Cs scorers just not making their shots when the Cs offense is struggling? why is it on Rondo not performing well? but the opposite for CP...

the fact is, CP played poorly in the playoffs and like you said, he is the team's playmaker. when he plays poorly, their team plays poorly - injured TC or no injured TC. Is he solely responsible for the team playing the way they did? no. but he certainly was part of it. and as the team leader playing healthy on a team that was one win away from the WCF last season, he needs to shoulder a good chunk of the load.

Bud, they lost by 60 pts at home in a series that they were never in....you can't tell me that CP comes out of that unscathed.

did you see that game?

look, i followed NO closely this season in part because I had Peja and TC on my fantasy team, so I know they struggled and were injured, but CPs place as a league MVP caliber player took a hit this season too, and I think that now that we have Sheed in place as the 6th man, rocking the boat in the starting 5 to bring in a player whose team had a total meltdown to end last season has a risk attatched to it.

that's why i think there is merit to concerns about the fit of CP to replace Rondo and Ray. could it work and be better? maybe. but why make such a drastic move on a "maybe"?

That's not at all what I'm doing. If Rondo were pushing the pace as he should, making smart decisions and we miss some shots then I wouldn't be putting a big chunk of the blame on him. It just so happens that CP3 does all those things consistently well. Rondo doesn't.

Rondo got dominated by vastly inferior players against Orlando for example. HE didn't do his job. HE didn't push the pace like he did in Chicago. In the first game against Chicago, even though he had that awesome game, I complained that he wasn't doing his job running the offense. He didn't move the ball as he should. Funny that I wasn't the only one criticizing him in one of the best games of his career, Doc later said pretty much the same thing. And funny too that the next game he did a much better job moving the ball, and coicidentally Ray got into a better shooting rhythm. In the latter, if Ray had missed those shots I wouldn't put any blame on Rondo, but I do put some blame in Ray's performance in the first game on Rondo.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[winsomme]

That's not at all what I'm doing. If Rondo were pushing the pace as he should, making smart decisions and we miss some shots then I wouldn't be putting a big chunk of the blame on him. It just so happens that CP3 does all those things consistently well. Rondo doesn't.



Do you understand what I'm saying now?

how is that different than what i just said?

when the Cs don't play well you say that Rondo isn't pushing the ball, keeping the pace, making smart decisions, etc...and when NO doesn't play well, it's because other players aren't doing their job, making shots or are injured...

that's a total double standard.

the fact is that CP did NOT do those things consistently well in that DEN series....

[BudweiserCeltic]

That's not at all what I'm doing. If Rondo were pushing the pace as he should, making smart decisions and we miss some shots then I wouldn't be putting a big chunk of the blame on him. It just so happens that CP3 does all those things consistently well. Rondo doesn't.



Do you understand what I'm saying now?

how is that different than what i just said?

when the Cs don't play well you say that Rondo isn't pushing the ball, keeping the pace, making smart decisions, etc...and when NO doesn't play well, it's because other players aren't doing their job, making shots or are injured...

that's a total double standard.

the fact is that CP did NOT do those things consistently well in that DEN series....

That's simply not true at all. And you forget all the times that I praise Rondo when he does the things he supposed to regardless of how the Celtics play. It just so happens that when Rondo plays bad the Celtics usually struggle. It just so happens that when he does what he's supposed to do the Celtics usually flourish.

But yeah, this will be my last post on this matter. Not really going to bother any more.

Bottom line is that CP3 is vastly more consistant and does just about everything on the floor better than Rondo. That's all really that matters.