Clarifying what "our garbage" really is

[GKC]

More and more on the trade forums, people's trade ideas are being responded with "nobody wants our trash" and then therefore "stop making trade ideas". I would quote but I'm sure people know what I am talking about. I would prefer more rationale answers such as "Shane Battier is too much of a cog on the team" or "player X's contract has too much value" instead of simply "noone wants out trash".

Why?

Because our trash is not trash.

The reason why more trade's are coming up this summer than the last, is because unlike last year, Tony Allen, Pruitt, Giddens, Walker and Scal are no longer garbage.

They are EXPIRING CONTRACTS

With a big free agency coming up, and with teams hemorrhaging money right now, LOTS of teams are trying get expiring contracts.

Looking at the 08-09 Season
The Cleveland Cavaliers got Mo Williams by trading away Damon Jones and Joe Smith (who was not in the main rotation of the Thunder)

The Houston Rockets got Ron Artest for Bobby Jackson and a draft pick

The LA Clippers got Zach Randolph for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley. The former was traded and the other had an insurance exception due to a heart condition

The LA Lakers got rid of Vladmir Rodmonovic for Shannon Brown and Adam Morrison, an obvious salary dump (even though Shannon Brown eventually became good).

Even this year the Nets and the Bucks have given away Jefferson and Carter for pennies on the dollar.

With the expiring's of our garbage, a team can clear salary cap space in the amount of;
Brian Scalabrine: $3.4 million
Tony Allen: $2.5 million
JR Giddens: $1 million
Gabe Pruitt: $.9 million
Bill Walker: $.7 million

The teams can save even more if we take on more salary (up to 15% per league rules).

Are we looking for the next Jefferson or Carter or Shaq trade? No. But there is a player within the package of our garbage to get someone. And especially with this year having more non-contenders than ever, teams looking at a shrinking salary cap and the economy taking it's toll on the NBA next season, this is the perfect year to use our expiring contracts to net us a player that solidifies our bench.

[Galiza Ceive]

I totally agree with your post. Hopefully we can add a decent PF with our non-trash.
Additionally, in 2010 we would have again a first round in the draft. Could we use it in a trade?

[slamtheking]

Completely agree with what you're stating.  I've been saying the same things in the threads where I've posted.

One thing to add in, House's contract also qualifies as an expiring deal.  Between TA, Veal, Pruitt and Eddie, we could land a very good player (assuming that player's contract matches their actual worth) or a couple of good players that produce more than these guys.  We'd still be able to hold onto Walker and Giddens to see if they can develop into productive players-->I'm very hesitant to toss them away without seeing what they can do.

Regarding the pick for next year, I believe it's available to trade however I wouldn't do it.  Danny's main demonstrable skill is the ability to find good players in the draft no matter where he picks in the order.  His track record for trades and FA signings hasn't been very good over the years but his drafting has been very good.  Even though the pick figures to be late in the round, Danny will find something solid in next year's draft which is supposed to be pretty decent.

[Brickowski]

The problem with your analysis is that the Celtics may wish to keep these players and clear some cap space themselves.  The Celtics have the second highest payroll in the league, behind the Lakers at No. 1.

Also, three of these players essentially make the minimum, and even if they were traded away and replaced with other minimum salary players, it would be a wash.

[Prof. Clutch]

More and more on the trade forums, people's trade ideas are being responded with "nobody wants our trash" and then therefore "stop making trade ideas". I would quote but I'm sure people know what I am talking about. I would prefer more rationale answers such as "Shane Battier is too much of a cog on the team" or "player X's contract has too much value" instead of simply "noone wants out trash".

Why?

Because our trash is not trash.

The reason why more trade's are coming up this summer than the last, is because unlike last year, Tony Allen, Pruitt, Giddens, Walker and Scal are no longer garbage.

They are EXPIRING CONTRACTS

With a big free agency coming up, and with teams hemorrhaging money right now, LOTS of teams are trying get expiring contracts.

Looking at the 08-09 Season
The Cleveland Cavaliers got Mo Williams by trading away Damon Jones and Joe Smith (who was not in the main rotation of the Thunder)

The Houston Rockets got Ron Artest for Bobby Jackson and a draft pick

The LA Clippers got Zach Randolph for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley. The former was traded and the other had an insurance exception due to a heart condition

The LA Lakers got rid of Vladmir Rodmonovic for Shannon Brown and Adam Morrison, an obvious salary dump (even though Shannon Brown eventually became good).

Even this year the Nets and the Bucks have given away Jefferson and Carter for pennies on the dollar.

With the expiring's of our garbage, a team can clear salary cap space in the amount of;
Brian Scalabrine: $3.4 million
Tony Allen: $2.5 million
JR Giddens: $1 million
Gabe Pruitt: $.9 million
Bill Walker: $.7 million

The teams can save even more if we take on more salary (up to 15% per league rules).

Are we looking for the next Jefferson or Carter or Shaq trade? No. But there is a player within the package of our garbage to get someone. And especially with this year having more non-contenders than ever, teams looking at a shrinking salary cap and the economy taking it's toll on the NBA next season, this is the perfect year to use our expiring contracts to net us a player that solidifies our bench.

Good post.  TP.  I still think its going to be harder than we think to unload all these guys.  Teams are willing to shed salary, but many hesitate at the idea of their fanbase losing faith in them.  It isn't so cut and dry all the time.

That said, I think Danny will find a way to get it done.  Hopefully whoever we get back in return can be a real contributor on this team, especially since the "trash" we're trading away makes up 1/5 of the total number of players on our team.

[yall hate]

Also, three of these players essentially make the minimum, and even if they were traded away and replaced with other minimum salary players, it would be a wash.

Thats the key ( I think). the deals the OP mentioned were deals with expiring contracts on very large scales.  Are guys are expiring on small levels.  there is a diffrence between one guy making 8 million and expiring, and jamming 5 guys together who combined make 8 million and are expiring.

[amenhotep04]

Nice OP. I do think our so-called trash are better players than warranting the name 'trash' however. Nevertheless, makes sense.

On a side note, I believe in the 2010 draft, we have to take a pick in the first round.  I believe the rules are that teams cannot go two years in a row without a first round pick.  I may be wrong with this, but that has been my understanding.

[GKC]

The problem with your analysis is that the Celtics may wish to keep these players and clear some cap space themselves.  The Celtics have the second highest payroll in the league, behind the Lakers at No. 1.

Also, three of these players essentially make the minimum, and even if they were traded away and replaced with other minimum salary players, it would be a wash.

The thing is, unlike most teams, the Celtics actually have turned a decent profit since the Big 3 have come along, but more importantly, even after the contracts expire, we are still over the tax anyway (assuming we extend ray allen. If we just let him walk that's a different story).

Also, Tony and Scal combine for over 6 mill in salary (for trading purposes with the 15% included), so we can at least get another MLE paid player in return.

I agree that it might not be the easiest task to do, but it's a lot easier than at least a lot of people think.

[Jon Niednagel]

Good post GKC. Have a TP to make it an even 30.

[kozlodoev]

See, the problem is that our "trash" has a total payroll of ~5.5 million. Teams generally do not take $0.25 on a $1 deals to dump $5,5 million.

they definitely won't do it with a young, developing player on a 3-4 year contract. So I am telling you right now -- you're not going to get Garcia or Belineli for a pile of expiring career backups. Maybe there's an outside chance to land Nocioni, but that's the best that we can do with this set of contracts.

So yeah, no Tommy point from me -- sorry.

[GKC]

See, the problem is that our "trash" has a total payroll of ~5.5 million. Teams generally do not take $0.25 on a $1 deals to dump $5,5 million.

they definitely won't do it with a young, developing player on a 3-4 year contract. So I am telling you right now -- you're not going to get Garcia or Belineli for a pile of expiring career backups. Maybe there's an outside chance to land Nocioni, but that's the best that we can do with this set of contracts.

So yeah, no Tommy point from me -- sorry.

Tony + Scal is already $5.7 million.

And to be honest Nocioni is way better than Belineli. One of them isn't a project.

And remember, we're not looking for a star here. Just something to shore up the bench at the 2/3 spot.

More examples for the non-believers.

Keyon Dooling got traded to the Nets for a second round pick. Keyon ended up with a great year in NJ. Nice shooting, low TO rate and an extremely high assist rate (almost 30% of his possessions end in assists). Was noted as a salary dump.

Thabo Sefolosha got traded to the Thunder for a conditional first round pick. With the Thunder obviously making the bottom 10 (or 15, whichever. It was obvious the pick wasn't going to belong to the Bulls), this was essentially a straight up salary dump for nothing.

and despite it being cancelled, don't forget

Tyson Chandler almost went to the Hornets for Wilcox and Joe Smith. Not only was this an obvious salary dump, Joe Smith had no intention of playing for the Hornets as he would've wanted to be waived if the trade went through anyway.

---

My point being? It's not unlikely. Think about it, with the way Thabo played during the second half of the season for the Thunder, are you saying Thabo would not have been a good 2/3 backup for Pierce/Ray? I think he would have been adequate, and he cost the Thunder NOTHING.

As KG says; "Anything is possible"

[Jon Niednagel]

Koz,

By no means am I trying to speak for GKC, but I think the point he's trying to make is that expiring contracts are worth more than the talent of the player, and as such they can get you better talent in return. Expiring contracts have more value than ever in this economic climate where over half the teams lost money last year and the future looks even bleaker (just when everyone is trying to get cap room for 2010). Thus, it is not unreasonable to think that expirings could get back better talent from another team. In fact, when looking back at the history of trades in the NBA, there seems to more lop-sided deals driven by finances than deals that make sense for both sides. I'd also add that depending on what your definition of "trash" is, the C's have much more than 5.5 mil in expiring or team-option contracts.

Brian Scalabrine    $3,413,793
Eddie House       $2,862,000
Tony Allen       $2,500,000
J.R. Giddens       $1,028,880   
Gabe Pruitt       $825,497   
Bill Walker       $736,420               

Total          $9,116,590

I agree with you that the C's will not likely get a young stud for expiring contracts, especially if they are on a reasonable contract or rooky contract, but I definitely believe the C's can upgrade the talent on the bench significantly using expiring contracts.

I'll also give you a TP because I'm just that kind of guy.

[kozlodoev]

Tony + Scal is already $5.7 million.

Right. Giddens and Walker are not expiring, and Pruitt is the only other expiring contract we have at $800,000.

And to be honest Nocioni is way better than Belineli. One of them isn't a project.

He better be -- he's a veteran. What might make him available is his god-awful contract. He has 3 more years starting at $7.5 million.

Belineli, on the other hand, has a reasonable contract, and can only get better. Same for Garcia. With Noch, what you see is what you get.

And remember, we're not looking for a star here. Just something to shore up the bench at the 2/3 spot.

Absolutely. Proposing trades for 24-25 year old players that are still developping, however, doesn't qualify as "shoring up the bench".

[BudweiserCeltic]

Giddens and Walker - Team Options say they are.

[kozlodoev]

Giddens and Walker - Team Options say they are.

Yes, but in 2010-2011, not this year. Pruitt has a TO this year.